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Replacement theology? Yes or No.
- Thread starter Gideon300
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Revelation 11 doesn’t contradict the covenant‑cosmos reading — it actually reinforces it — because John is shown the temple still standing precisely so he can narrate its judgment, not its survival, and the 42‑month trampling matches the same covenant‑collapse period Jesus gave in Luke 21.
The measuring scene is never preservation; in Scripture it is either assessment for destruction (Ezekiel 40–43) or marking off the remnant (Zechariah 2), and here the inner sanctuary is measured while the outer court — the part exposed to Rome — is handed to the Gentiles for 42 months, the same period Daniel calls “a time, times, and half a time.” Jerusalem is explicitly named in v.8 because John wants the reader to understand that the “holy city” being trampled is not a symbolic abstraction but the covenant city whose fall Jesus predicted.
The fact that the temple appears at the start of the chapter simply means the vision is pre‑destruction, just like Jesus standing in front of the still‑standing temple in Matthew 24:2; the narrative moves from temple‑standing to temple‑fall.
Nothing in Revelation 11 requires a future rebuilt temple — it only requires that John is shown the covenant structure that is about to be judged. However, a temple can be built, but it would have zero prophetic authorization, zero covenant function, and zero eschatological legitimacy, because Scripture never promises, predicts, commands, or requires a future physical temple after the destruction of the one Jesus judged.
You may have that one right.
I also notice that in V. 8 Jerusalem is called "the great city".
We are told a lot about this Great City throughout the book of Revelation.
In v. 10 the word for earth is "ge" (also can be translated "land"), not "kosmos" which means world.
"ge" is used a lot in Revelation.
“the great city” in 11:8 is Jerusalem, and the repeated use of gē signals covenant‑land judgment, not global catastrophe.
John’s language stays consistent — the city that kills the prophets (Rev 18:24) is the same city Jesus identifies as Jerusalem (Matt 23:37), and the rejoicing of those in the gē (11:10) matches OT covenant‑curse geography, not planetary scope.
The vocabulary is doing the theological work: Revelation’s collapse is the collapse of Israel’s covenant world, not the destruction of the physical cosmos.
Greek has flexibility like other languages, and John uses "ge" most of the time.
I do not want to accept strict linguistic rules unless they really apply to the whole Bible.
I noticed however that "world" is "kosmos" in Revelation 11:15 "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord".
kosmos in Rev 11:15 actually reinforces the point, not weakens it:
John is perfectly capable of saying kosmos when he means the world‑order of nations, and he does so precisely at the moment when the seventh trumpet announces Christ’s universal reign; but in Rev 11:1–13 he never uses kosmos — he uses gē, the covenant‑land term that the OT repeatedly ties to Israel’s judgment geography (Deut 28:21, Isa 24:1–6), and he anchors it to a measurable temple, a holy city, and the place where the Lord was crucified, which is Jerusalem.
The flexibility of Greek doesn’t erase the pattern:
John switches vocabulary when he switches scope.
Kosmos = the nations’ order under Christ’s kingdom (11:15);
gē = the covenant‑land under curse (11:10).
And Rev 18:24’s “the city that kills the prophets” is the same city Jesus identifies in Matt 23:37, so John’s lexical consistency is theological, not arbitrary.
There is a very chilling prediction of the destruction of Jerusalem in Jeremiah 19 that uses similar language to Isaiah 24.
There are many parallels between the second and the first destruction of Jerusalem.
Here is one I have been looking at on the word "desolate".
Isaiah 24:12 In the city is left desolation, and the gate is smitten with destruction.
Jeremiah 19: And I will make this city desolate, and an hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished and hiss because of all the plagues thereof.
Mathew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Revelation 17:16
And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
Revelation 18:19
And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
I also think it is Jesus (not any antichrist) who is spoken about here:
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
I also see the parallels between the curses in Deuteronomy 28 for breaking the law of Moses and the book of Revelation.
God is every bit as incredible in His destroying as He is in creating.
Your observations are correct: the “desolate” language forms a prophetic chain that consistently points to covenant judgment on Jerusalem, and the parallels between Isaiah 24, Jeremiah 19, Matthew 23:38, Revelation 17–18, and Daniel 9:27 are intentional, not accidental; the prophets use the same vocabulary because they are describing the same covenant pattern — when Israel breaks the covenant, God brings desolation on the city, the sanctuary, and the land, and Revelation applies that pattern to Jerusalem as the city that kills the prophets (Rev 18:24; Matt 23:37).
Isaiah 24’s “desolation” is covenant‑curse language (Deut 28), Jeremiah 19 predicts Jerusalem’s destruction in terms that mirror Isaiah, Jesus declares the house desolate in Matt 23:38, Revelation depicts the great city made desolate in judgment, and Daniel 9:27 speaks of Messiah ending sacrifice and bringing desolation on the covenant‑breaking city.
These are not random parallels; they are the Bible’s own covenant‑juridical structure.
The RT crowd is obsessed with anything pertaining to the destruction, desolation, judgement and curses upon Jerusalem and/or Jews and/or the Nation Israel.
Yet they NEVER speak about its CERTAIN and inevitable deliverance, repentance, redemption, restoration and ETERNAL blessing.
I leave it to the viewing audience to ponder the state of heart required for such kinds of grievous omissions.
Thats a "cant refute what was said" admission. The preterist tank is empty.
Wrong...... and to set the record straight, I am not going to converse someone who accuses me of "crime" especially on well established understanding of what is idiomatic and apocryphal language.
Its so well established that no one has believed it until recently. You like to yap on dispensationalism being new and the Darby and all that yet what you believe is even newer. Jokes on you girl.
This is NOT my personal opinion. Rather it is unassailable Biblical truth. Christ Jesus will indeed forgive and RESTORE Gomer aka the Nation Israel. So why do so you despise she whom God loves?
None of this has happened in the entire history of Israel. Nor is there any sane reason to say that Gomer is the Church.
Some folks on this thread are lying their fool heads off. And they are extremely easy to identify.
Key Terms and Action Verbs Used in Hosea
Betroth (’āraś): Hosea 2:19–20 uses this specific marital term three times: "I will betroth you to me forever... in righteousness and in justice, in steadfast love and in mercy. I will betroth you to me in faithfulness." This marks a total covenant re-establishment.
Love (‘āhab): Hosea 3:1 commands Hosea: "Go again, love a woman who is loved by another lover and is an adulteress, even as the Lord loves the children of Israel." God's primary action toward her is persistent, unmerited love.
Buy / Ransom / Redeem (kārāh / pādāh): Hosea 3:2 records Hosea physically purchasing Gomer out of servitude for 15 shekels of silver and a measure of barley—a direct act of redemption. God uses the explicit redeem/ransom vocabulary in Hosea 13:14: "I shall ransom (pādāh) them from the power of Sheol; I shall redeem (gā’al) them from Death."
Show Mercy / Pity (rāḥam): God reverses the prophetic judgment of Hosea's children's names to signal restoration: "I will have mercy on No Mercy [Lo-Ruhamah], and I will say to Not My People [Lo-Ammi], 'You are my people'" (Hosea 2:23).
Allure and Speak Comfortably (pātāh & dābar ‘al-lēb): Hosea 2:14 states, "I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak tenderly to her"—drawing her away from her idols to restore her heart.
Heal (rāpā’): Hosea 14:4 describes spiritual restoration: "I will heal their apostasy; I will love them freely, for my anger has turned from them."
Purify / Remove: Purification is framed as removing temptation: "I will remove the names of the Baals from her mouth, and they shall be remembered by name no more" (Hosea 2:17).
Clearly you do not understand that phenomenon either. Not surprising in the least.
But we, the legit scholars who do not despise Israel do know perfectly well....
The legal paradox surrounding Gomer (Israel), the Law of Moses, and her ultimate redemption centers on Romans 7:1–6, combined with Old Testament prophecy from Hosea and Deuteronomy.
In Messianic dispensational theology—prominently articulated by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum (founder of Ariel Ministries)—this principle shows how God uses the death of the husband in the New Testament to solve an otherwise legally impossible situation created under the Mosaic Covenant.
1. The Divine Problem: Israel, God, and the Law of Divorce
To understand Paul's argument in Romans 7, you first have to look at the Old Testament marital crisis:
* Israel as the Wife of Jehovah: In Old Testament typology (specifically Hosea 1–3 and Jeremiah 3), Israel is depicted as the wife of Yahweh.
* The Spiritual Adultery (Gomer): Gomer’s unfaithfulness to Hosea mirrors Israel’s idolatry and spiritual adultery against God.
* The Bill of Divorce: Because of her persistent adulteries, God issued Israel a "certificate of divorce" (Jeremiah 3:8, Hosea 2:2).
* The Legal Dilemma (Deuteronomy 24:1–4): Under the Law of Moses, if a man divorces his wife and she goes and belongs to another man, her first husband cannot legally take her back as his wife again after she has been defiled. Doing so was an abomination under the Law.
The Paradox: God promised in the prophets that He would one day remarry Israel in a New Covenant (Hosea 2:19–20, Jeremiah 31:31–34). However, God’s own Law in Deuteronomy 24 forbade Him from taking back His divorced, defiled wife. How could God remain perfectly righteous under His own Law while fulfilling His promise to fully redeem and remarry Israel?
2. Paul’s Legal Solution: The Law of the Husband (Romans 7:1–6)
Paul addresses this exact legal mechanic in Romans 7:1–4:
> "For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband... Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead..."
>
According to Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum’s commentary on Romans 7 (The Believer and the Law of the Husband):
* Death Breaks the Contract: Marriage contracts under Mosaic Law are binding only until death. The death of either spouse legally dissolves the marital covenant and nullifies the prohibitions attached to it.
* The Husband Dies in Christ: Jesus Christ is Jehovah incarnate. By dying on the cross, the "Husband" of the original covenant legally died.
* The Wife Dies in Christ: Furthermore, Israel (and believers collectively) died positional deaths in Christ.
* Legal Release: Because death occurred, the Mosaic Law’s prohibition in Deuteronomy 24 no longer applies. The old marriage covenant was officially rendered null and void by death.
3. The Full and Final Redemption
Because the former legal relationship was terminated by death, God is no longer violating Deuteronomy 24 when He restores Israel:
* Resurrection Means a New Husband: When Christ rose from the dead, He did so in resurrection life as a "New Husband" (or the resurrected Messiah).
* A New Marriage / New Covenant: Israel—reborn through faith in her resurrected Messiah—is now legally free to enter into a New Covenant marriage with Him without violating the Mosaic Law.
In Hosea 3, Hosea buys Gomer back from the slave block—a picture of price paid for redemption. In Paul's NT doctrine, that redemption is legally codified: Christ didn't just pay a ransom price; He fulfilled and terminated the strict legal constraints of the Law of Moses that kept the divorced wife bound.
Summary Framework
| Stage | Old Testament Typology (Hosea & Law) | New Testament Codification (Paul / Romans 7) |
|---|---|---|
| Wife's Status | Gomer / Israel commits adultery | Subject to the Law of Sin and Death |
| Legal Barrier | Divorced; cannot be retaken under Deut 24 | Bound by the Law as long as the husband lives |
| The Legal Mechanism | Hosea pays 30 pieces of silver to redeem | Christ's Death: Dies physically, satisfying the Law's demands |
| Final Redemption | Betrothed forever in righteousness (Hosea 2:19) | Free to marry another—the Resu
rrected Christ (Romans 7:4) |
Yes, we, the futurist dispensationalists, truly understand that Christ Jesus engineered the PERFECT solution to the failure of Israel.
Yet you choose to deny this gracious plan of redemption? We insist that you explain yourself and your motives.
Because the former legal relationship was terminated by death, God is no longer violating Deuteronomy 24 when He restores Israel:
* Resurrection Means a New Husband: When Christ rose from the dead, He did so in resurrection life as a "New Husband" (or the resurrected Messiah).
* A New Marriage / New Covenant: Israel—reborn through faith in her resurrected Messiah—is now legally free to enter into a New Covenant marriage with Him without violating the Mosaic Law.
You need to read hosea every chapter, by order.
Ethnic isreal given the opportunity as wife,
Gomer commit adultery.
God gives gomer 2nd chance to repent and come back,
Gomer continue unfaithful.
God's judgment on israel.
God send Jesus to ransom isreal, hosea 13:14, giving ethnic Israel another opportunity, 14:4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9
Whoever is wise....return to God.
As Peter, Paul, mary.... did.
Hosea 3:5 is about Jesus, and children of Jesus, fyi. Fear the Lord, return and seek God. This is the calling to ethnic Israel, even including today.
Not a secular system.