How can someone who 'never dies' be amongst 'the dead' who rise 1st?

[OMC]

The spirit, which is the breath of life, returns to God who gave it.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 does not say “the spirit is the breath of life” — it says two different things happen at death: “the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it,” which only makes sense if “spirit” is not the same thing as “breath,” because the breath goes out of both humans and animals (Eccl 3:19), but only man’s spirit returns to God (Eccl 3:21), proving Solomon is distinguishing physical animation from the inner person.
The “breath in the nostrils” texts (Job 27:3) refer to physical life, not the soul — the same way Genesis 2:7 says God breathed into Adam’s nostrils the breath of life and Adam became a living soul, not that the breath was the soul.
And Jesus Himself separates the two: “the body sleeps” (John 11:11–14), lies in the tomb, stinks, decays, returns to dust (John 11:17, 39), but the inner man is what He says goes either to comfort (Luke 16:22) or torment (Luke 16:23).
So your claim that “the spirit is just breath” contradicts the very text you quoted — breath is physical animation shared with animals, spirit is the human inner person that returns to God and is conscious after death, exactly as Jesus, Paul, Peter, Jude, and John all teach.

 

[WayneNSO]

According to most ministers there is no death after life you just go from one state to another.

So when do you die?

In Genesis God says thou shalt surely die

Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

but a little later in the next chapter the serpent says Ye shall not surely die, and today the minsiters say from their pulpits, Ye shall not surely die, you tranform to another life.

Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Satans followers in the garden liked the addition of that word NOT to Gods words, and liked the idea they could become gods, and ever since then up until our modern times man has mainly followed one of three views - Satans view Gods view, and those inbetween like the Sadducees of Jesus day and the Athiests of today that hold Gods view about death but deny the resurrection.

 

[WayneNSO]

The Greeks and Indians developed this idea of an immortal soul further by saying that the soul not only lives on after the mortal body dies, but pre-exists the body and is ever lasting. The body was seen as a prison or cage for the soul. The belief in reincarnation comes from this idea of a pre-existing soul.

The Bible tells us that it is "appointed unto men once to die" not having many lives and deaths.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

 

[OMC]

According to most ministers there is no death after life you just go from one state to another.

So when do you die?

In Genesis God says thou shalt surely die

Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

but a little later in the next chapter the serpent says Ye shall not surely die, and today the minsiters say from their pulpits, Ye shall not surely die, you tranform to another life.

Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Satans followers in the garden liked the addition of that word NOT to Gods words, and liked the idea they could become gods, and ever since then up until our modern times man has mainly followed one of three views - Satans view Gods view, and those inbetween like the Sadducees of Jesus day and the Athiests of today that hold Gods view about death but deny the resurrection.

Brother, you’re collapsing two different biblical deaths into one: physical death (the body returning to dust) and spiritual death (separation from God). When God said, “you shall surely die” (Gen 2:17), Adam did not drop dead that day — his body lived 930 years — but he died spiritually immediately, losing fellowship with God (Gen 3:8), exactly what Paul calls being “dead in trespasses and sins” (Eph 2:1).
So Scripture teaches real death, not serpent‑style denial — the body dies and sleeps in the dust (Dan 12:2), but the spirit returns to God (Eccl 12:7), which cannot be “breath” because animals share breath (Eccl 3:19) but do not have a spirit that returns to God (Eccl 3:21).
And your claim that Luke 16 is “just Jews vs Gentiles” fails because Jesus explicitly describes death, angels, Hades, torment, comfort, memory, conversation — none of which He ever uses symbolically; He says the rich man died and was in torment in Hades (Luke 16:22–23), exactly matching 2 Pet 2:9: the ungodly are “kept under punishment until the day of judgment.” So the biblical pattern is simple: we really die, the body sleeps, the spirit goes to its appointed place, and the resurrection is the final reversal — not serpent theology, not paganism, just Scripture.

 

[OMC]

The Greeks and Indians developed this idea of an immortal soul further by saying that the soul not only lives on after the mortal body dies, but pre-exists the body and is ever lasting. The body was seen as a prison or cage for the soul. The belief in reincarnation comes from this idea of a pre-existing soul.

The Bible tells us that it is "appointed unto men once to die" not having many lives and deaths.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Hebrews 9:27 refutes reincarnation, not consciousness; it says we die once, then face judgment, which only makes sense if the person still exists after death.
And your “immortal soul = Greek paganism” claim fails because Scripture itself teaches the soul continues: the dust returns to the earth, and the spirit returns to God (Eccl 12:7), and that cannot be “breath” because animals share breath (Eccl 3:19) but do not have a spirit that returns to God (Eccl 3:21).
Breath is physical life; spirit is the inner man God formed (Zech 12:1).
Jesus says Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are alive to God long after their bodies died (Matt 22:32), the rich man is conscious in Hades (Luke 16:23), martyrs cry out (Rev 6:9–10), and believers are present with the Lord when absent from the body (2 Cor 5:8; Phil 1:23).
None of that is Greek philosophy — it is simply Scripture: one death, then judgment, with the body sleeping and the spirit continuing until resurrection.

 

[WayneNSO]

In Genesis 2:7 we have man formed from the dust of the ground and the elements of the earth, and God breathed into him the breath or spirit of life and he became a living soul. He did not have a living soul, he became a living soul.

Earth (Body)
Breath (Spirit)
______________
=Living Soul

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Living soul is also used of animals. It means living being. We do not have a soul, we are a soul.

In the flood everything that had the breath of life was destroyed. Animals, birds and man. The breath of life was not unique to human beings, it is in all living creatures. Animated means it has breath, and because they are animated we refer to them as animals, which includes man.

Genesis 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

The Hebrew word translated "soul" is nephesh, and is also translated as creature:

Genesis 2:19 . . . and whatsoever Adam called every living [chay] creature [nephesh],that was the name thereof.

In the Greek it is ψυχή (psuché) where we get the words psyche and psychology from.

We read about dead souls in the bible, which means dead beings:

Joshua 11:11 And they smote all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them: there was not any left to breathe: and he burnt Hazor with fire.

A soul is not an indestructable entity that escapes the body, it can be destroyed, because it is the living body itself:

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. . .

Ezekiel 22:27 . . . to shed blood, and to destroy souls, . . .

The soul returns to the dust of the earth, only the breath or spirit of life returns to God:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 puts it this way:

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So we see here man described in three parts - the body which is the flesh, the spirit which is the breath of life, and the soul - the seat of our thoughts emotions and will etc, that which makes us alive. Man does not consist of three persons, without the breath, we do not have the thoughts and emotions all we have is a carcuss that rots.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[WayneNSO]

Once the spirit departs the body the body is dead. the spirit does not go on living, drifting around haunting people or whatever, it simply returns to the Lord.

Only God is immortal, eternal life is ascribed exclusively to God and to celestial beings who "eat of the tree of life and live forever" When the snake promised them, that they will not die, by listening to the snake, Adam and Eve actually lost the opportunity of eating the food of immortality, by being driven out of the garden through their sin.

1 Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

To say an entity such as a soul or spirit has immortal life apart from God, is saying that entity is divine, it is a god in and of itself. Is there death after life? Yes. This is why we look forward to the ressurection.

 

[WayneNSO]

According to the Jewish Encyclopedia:

The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended.

 

[WayneNSO]

Hebrews 9:27 refutes reincarnation, not consciousness; it says we die once, then face judgment, which only makes sense if the person still exists after death.
And your “immortal soul = Greek paganism” claim fails because Scripture itself teaches the soul continues: the dust returns to the earth, and the spirit returns to God (Eccl 12:7), and that cannot be “breath” because animals share breath (Eccl 3:19) but do not have a spirit that returns to God (Eccl 3:21).
Breath is physical life; spirit is the inner man God formed (Zech 12:1).
Jesus says Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are alive to God long after their bodies died (Matt 22:32), the rich man is conscious in Hades (Luke 16:23), martyrs cry out (Rev 6:9–10), and believers are present with the Lord when absent from the body (2 Cor 5:8; Phil 1:23).
None of that is Greek philosophy — it is simply Scripture: one death, then judgment, with the body sleeping and the spirit continuing until resurrection.

If the soul is immortal why can it be killed ?

Joshua 11:11 And they smote all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them: there was not any left to breathe: and he burnt Hazor with fire.

 

[WayneNSO]

@OMC

None of your arguments against what I have said has been convincing to me, so we will have to agree to disagree It is not like it is a salvation issue, unless you think otherwise ?

 

[Revelation1v8]

The rich man and Lazarus is a parable about Judah rejecting Christ and the kingdom being given to the gentiles and the judgement in 70AD upon Judah.

Death throughout the the bible is likened to sleep where the dead have no consciousness, all this immortal soul living in in heaven and hell right after death is paganism that has infiltrated Christianity and goes against the Bible

While Jesus was on the cross, He said: Luke 23:43 - And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[Revelation1v8]

If the soul is immortal why can it be killed ?

Joshua 11:11 And they smote all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them: there was not any left to breathe: and he burnt Hazor with fire.

The Bible tells us that Adam was created as a living soul in

1 Corinthians 15:45 - And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

But, Jesus also said that He could kill the soul by sending it to hell.

Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Revelation1v8]

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Daniel 12:2

See also Dan 12:13

The Bible uses sleep as a metaphor for death, at no time does it compare death to a conscious existence.

... Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers
Deut 31:16

And when they days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, . . .
2 Sam 7:12

. . . when my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers, . . .
1 Kings 1:21

So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David
1 Kings 2:10

Death is referred to as sleep in the following passages from Kings to Job.

1 Kings 11:21, 43; 14:20, 31; 15:8, 24; 16:6, 28; 22:40, 50; 2 Kings 8:24; 10:35, 13:9, 13; 14:16, 22, 29; 15:7, 22, 38; 16:20; 20:21; 21:18; 24:6; 2 Chr 9:31; 12:16; 14:1; 16:13; 21:1; 26:2, 23; 27:9; 28:27; 32:33; 33:20; Job 3:12-18; 7:21; 14:12

When we come to the Psalms we read this:

Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death
Psalms 13:3

Also look at Jeremiah 51:39-40, 57

When we come to the New Testament the sleep metaphor is continued.

He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
Matthew 9:24

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Matthew 27:52

See also Mark 5:39; Luke 8:52; John 11:11-14; Acts 7:30; 13:36; 1 Cor 11:30; 15:6, 18, 20, 51

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

See also 2 Peter 3:4; Rev 14:13

I think you kind of answered your own question in...

1 Thessalonians 4:14 - 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

So, while the body sleeps, God/Jesus brings their souls back to earth with Him when He returns. That's the only way that God/Jesus will/would be able to "bring with him".

 

[Aaron56]

The rich man and Lazarus is a parable about Judah rejecting Christ and the kingdom being given to the gentiles and the judgement in 70AD upon Judah.

Death throughout the the bible is likened to sleep where the dead have no consciousness, all this immortal soul living in in heaven and hell right after death is paganism that has infiltrated Christianity and goes against the Bible

I just want to address one issue: consciousness after death. I am not addressing the idea of an immortal soul, only consciousness.

First, a passage:

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water."

How do you understand the "spirits in prison" receiving the preached word of the Lord by the Spirit?

 

[WayneNSO]

The Bible tells us that Adam was created as a living soul in

1 Corinthians 15:45 - And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

But, Jesus also said that He could kill the soul by sending it to hell.

Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

According to that verse man can kill the souls also not just Jesus/God

 

[WayneNSO]

I think you kind of answered your own question in...

1 Thessalonians 4:14 - 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

So, while the body sleeps, God/Jesus brings their souls back to earth with Him when He returns. That's the only way that God/Jesus will/would be able to "bring with him".

The resurrected he will bring with Him

 

[Revelation1v8]

According to that verse man can kill the souls also not just Jesus/God

The term "souls" is used in more than one way in the Bible, which is why I showed you the verse in 1 Corinthians 15 about God creating Adam as a "living soul". In some instances, the term "soul" is used to refer to a person in general. Jesus shows you the difference from where the "soul" can be separate from the body when He says that ONLY HE can destroy both the body AND the soul.

 

[WayneNSO]

While Jesus was on the cross, He said: Luke 23:43 - And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

And where did Jesus ? He went to the Garden tomb, which can be translated paradise, he died, he rose and walked the earth for 40 more days before going to Heaven, so either Jesus lied to the thief or he was saying today you will die and end up buried. Which is what happened, the Jews wanted those crucified to be killed early because of the sabbath, so the soldiers broke the thieves legs , Jesus was already dead so his legs were not broken.

 

[Revelation1v8]

The resurrected he will bring with Him

That's not the way Revelation 20 describes it, but there could be something about those verses that's implying something different than the way it reads directly. It's something I've been meaning to study again. I have some thoughts and I'll share them later when I've researched it more thoroughly.

In the meanwhile, here is how Revelation 20 describes it:

Revelation 20

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[WayneNSO]

I just want to address one issue: consciousness after death. I am not addressing the idea of an immortal soul, only consciousness.

First, a passage:

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water."

How do you understand the "spirits in prison" receiving the preached word of the Lord by the Spirit?

That is about the preaching of the good news to the lost by the same spirit that raised Christ.