How can someone who 'never dies' be amongst 'the dead' who rise 1st?

[OMC]

The spirit, which is the breath of life, returns to God who gave it.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 does not say “the spirit is the breath of life” — it says two different things happen at death: “the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it,” which only makes sense if “spirit” is not the same thing as “breath,” because the breath goes out of both humans and animals (Eccl 3:19), but only man’s spirit returns to God (Eccl 3:21), proving Solomon is distinguishing physical animation from the inner person.
The “breath in the nostrils” texts (Job 27:3) refer to physical life, not the soul — the same way Genesis 2:7 says God breathed into Adam’s nostrils the breath of life and Adam became a living soul, not that the breath was the soul.
And Jesus Himself separates the two: “the body sleeps” (John 11:11–14), lies in the tomb, stinks, decays, returns to dust (John 11:17, 39), but the inner man is what He says goes either to comfort (Luke 16:22) or torment (Luke 16:23).
So your claim that “the spirit is just breath” contradicts the very text you quoted — breath is physical animation shared with animals, spirit is the human inner person that returns to God and is conscious after death, exactly as Jesus, Paul, Peter, Jude, and John all teach.

 

[WayneNSO]

According to most ministers there is no death after life you just go from one state to another.

So when do you die?

In Genesis God says thou shalt surely die

Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

but a little later in the next chapter the serpent says Ye shall not surely die, and today the minsiters say from their pulpits, Ye shall not surely die, you tranform to another life.

Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Satans followers in the garden liked the addition of that word NOT to Gods words, and liked the idea they could become gods, and ever since then up until our modern times man has mainly followed one of three views - Satans view Gods view, and those inbetween like the Sadducees of Jesus day and the Athiests of today that hold Gods view about death but deny the resurrection.

 

[WayneNSO]

The Greeks and Indians developed this idea of an immortal soul further by saying that the soul not only lives on after the mortal body dies, but pre-exists the body and is ever lasting. The body was seen as a prison or cage for the soul. The belief in reincarnation comes from this idea of a pre-existing soul.

The Bible tells us that it is "appointed unto men once to die" not having many lives and deaths.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

 

[OMC]

According to most ministers there is no death after life you just go from one state to another.

So when do you die?

In Genesis God says thou shalt surely die

Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

but a little later in the next chapter the serpent says Ye shall not surely die, and today the minsiters say from their pulpits, Ye shall not surely die, you tranform to another life.

Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Satans followers in the garden liked the addition of that word NOT to Gods words, and liked the idea they could become gods, and ever since then up until our modern times man has mainly followed one of three views - Satans view Gods view, and those inbetween like the Sadducees of Jesus day and the Athiests of today that hold Gods view about death but deny the resurrection.

Brother, you’re collapsing two different biblical deaths into one: physical death (the body returning to dust) and spiritual death (separation from God). When God said, “you shall surely die” (Gen 2:17), Adam did not drop dead that day — his body lived 930 years — but he died spiritually immediately, losing fellowship with God (Gen 3:8), exactly what Paul calls being “dead in trespasses and sins” (Eph 2:1).
So Scripture teaches real death, not serpent‑style denial — the body dies and sleeps in the dust (Dan 12:2), but the spirit returns to God (Eccl 12:7), which cannot be “breath” because animals share breath (Eccl 3:19) but do not have a spirit that returns to God (Eccl 3:21).
And your claim that Luke 16 is “just Jews vs Gentiles” fails because Jesus explicitly describes death, angels, Hades, torment, comfort, memory, conversation — none of which He ever uses symbolically; He says the rich man died and was in torment in Hades (Luke 16:22–23), exactly matching 2 Pet 2:9: the ungodly are “kept under punishment until the day of judgment.” So the biblical pattern is simple: we really die, the body sleeps, the spirit goes to its appointed place, and the resurrection is the final reversal — not serpent theology, not paganism, just Scripture.

 

[OMC]

The Greeks and Indians developed this idea of an immortal soul further by saying that the soul not only lives on after the mortal body dies, but pre-exists the body and is ever lasting. The body was seen as a prison or cage for the soul. The belief in reincarnation comes from this idea of a pre-existing soul.

The Bible tells us that it is "appointed unto men once to die" not having many lives and deaths.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Hebrews 9:27 refutes reincarnation, not consciousness; it says we die once, then face judgment, which only makes sense if the person still exists after death.
And your “immortal soul = Greek paganism” claim fails because Scripture itself teaches the soul continues: the dust returns to the earth, and the spirit returns to God (Eccl 12:7), and that cannot be “breath” because animals share breath (Eccl 3:19) but do not have a spirit that returns to God (Eccl 3:21).
Breath is physical life; spirit is the inner man God formed (Zech 12:1).
Jesus says Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are alive to God long after their bodies died (Matt 22:32), the rich man is conscious in Hades (Luke 16:23), martyrs cry out (Rev 6:9–10), and believers are present with the Lord when absent from the body (2 Cor 5:8; Phil 1:23).
None of that is Greek philosophy — it is simply Scripture: one death, then judgment, with the body sleeping and the spirit continuing until resurrection.

 

[WayneNSO]

In Genesis 2:7 we have man formed from the dust of the ground and the elements of the earth, and God breathed into him the breath or spirit of life and he became a living soul. He did not have a living soul, he became a living soul.

Earth (Body)
Breath (Spirit)
______________
=Living Soul

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Living soul is also used of animals. It means living being. We do not have a soul, we are a soul.

In the flood everything that had the breath of life was destroyed. Animals, birds and man. The breath of life was not unique to human beings, it is in all living creatures. Animated means it has breath, and because they are animated we refer to them as animals, which includes man.

Genesis 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

The Hebrew word translated "soul" is nephesh, and is also translated as creature:

Genesis 2:19 . . . and whatsoever Adam called every living [chay] creature [nephesh],that was the name thereof.

In the Greek it is ψυχή (psuché) where we get the words psyche and psychology from.

We read about dead souls in the bible, which means dead beings:

Joshua 11:11 And they smote all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them: there was not any left to breathe: and he burnt Hazor with fire.

A soul is not an indestructable entity that escapes the body, it can be destroyed, because it is the living body itself:

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. . .

Ezekiel 22:27 . . . to shed blood, and to destroy souls, . . .

The soul returns to the dust of the earth, only the breath or spirit of life returns to God:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 puts it this way:

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So we see here man described in three parts - the body which is the flesh, the spirit which is the breath of life, and the soul - the seat of our thoughts emotions and will etc, that which makes us alive. Man does not consist of three persons, without the breath, we do not have the thoughts and emotions all we have is a carcuss that rots.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[WayneNSO]

Once the spirit departs the body the body is dead. the spirit does not go on living, drifting around haunting people or whatever, it simply returns to the Lord.

Only God is immortal, eternal life is ascribed exclusively to God and to celestial beings who "eat of the tree of life and live forever" When the snake promised them, that they will not die, by listening to the snake, Adam and Eve actually lost the opportunity of eating the food of immortality, by being driven out of the garden through their sin.

1 Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

To say an entity such as a soul or spirit has immortal life apart from God, is saying that entity is divine, it is a god in and of itself. Is there death after life? Yes. This is why we look forward to the ressurection.

 

[WayneNSO]

According to the Jewish Encyclopedia:

The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended.

 

[WayneNSO]

Hebrews 9:27 refutes reincarnation, not consciousness; it says we die once, then face judgment, which only makes sense if the person still exists after death.
And your “immortal soul = Greek paganism” claim fails because Scripture itself teaches the soul continues: the dust returns to the earth, and the spirit returns to God (Eccl 12:7), and that cannot be “breath” because animals share breath (Eccl 3:19) but do not have a spirit that returns to God (Eccl 3:21).
Breath is physical life; spirit is the inner man God formed (Zech 12:1).
Jesus says Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are alive to God long after their bodies died (Matt 22:32), the rich man is conscious in Hades (Luke 16:23), martyrs cry out (Rev 6:9–10), and believers are present with the Lord when absent from the body (2 Cor 5:8; Phil 1:23).
None of that is Greek philosophy — it is simply Scripture: one death, then judgment, with the body sleeping and the spirit continuing until resurrection.

If the soul is immortal why can it be killed ?

Joshua 11:11 And they smote all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them: there was not any left to breathe: and he burnt Hazor with fire.

 

[WayneNSO]

@OMC

None of your arguments against what I have said has been convincing to me, so we will have to agree to disagree It is not like it is a salvation issue, unless you think otherwise ?