Yes Jesus said that in the gospel of the kingdom he preached ……this doesn’t relate to what I said though at all
Replacement theology? Yes or No.
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I never said any of that. You can play like I did though if it makes you feel better
Yes and Jesus said He came to do God's will and take the old covenant away in order to establish the New Covenant.
Hebrews 10:9 - Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Hebrews 8:6 - But now hath Jesus obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also Jesus is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Are you suggesting Christians should try to walk in the old covenant along with the New Covenant and ignore what Jesus said in Hebrews 10:9 then?
Exodus 24:7-8
it is a fore shadowing of Jesus blood. So overall, it is the same covenant.
Ot look ahead for messiah coming, nt messiah came, holy spirit dwell in us.
Not the same covenant, unless someone things there are lies in God's Word.
Hebrews 10:9 - Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Hebrews 8:6 - But now hath Jesus obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also Jesus is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Some people seem to be ignoring the Book of Hebrews
Yes, certain commentators and theologians do push the timeline back even further to include Babel (Nimrod) as the true starting point.
The inclusion or exclusion of Nimrod/Babel marks one of the primary dividing lines between two major approaches within futuristic and dispensational eschatology: National vs. Spiritual/Ideological scope.
Why Some Scholars Include Nimrod (The Babel View)
Expositors who start the list with Nimrod (often citing Genesis 10:8–10 and Genesis 11) argue that Revelation 17 is explicitly about Babylon the Great, the Mother of Prostitutes. Because Nimrod founded the original Babel (Babylon) and established the world’s first unified, anti-God political and religious empire, he represents the original "head" of satanic world governance.
Scholars in this camp (such as Clarence Larkin, Arthur W. Pink, or Henry Morris in The Revelation Record) construct the 5 "fallen" kingdoms like this:
* Babel / Nimrod’s Empire (The origin of idolatrous world government)
* Egypt (The enslavement of Israel)
* Assyria (The exile of the Northern Kingdom)
* Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar's Neo-Babylonian Empire)
* Medo-Persia or Greece (depending on how they group the classical powers)
In this scheme, Nimrod is viewed as the prototypical Antichrist, establishing the spiritual archetype that Satan resurrects throughout history.
Why Fruchtenbaum Excludes Nimrod
Fruchtenbaum (along with John Walvoord, Dwight Pentecost, and C.I. Scofield) excludes Nimrod/Babel from the counting of the seven heads based on a strict hermeneutical constraint: The direct, total political domination over the nation of Israel.
* Israel did not exist yet: During Nimrod’s era at the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11), Abraham had not been called, the covenant had not been cut, and the ethnic nation of Israel did not exist.
* National Sovereignty Focus: Fruchtenbaum defines a "head" (world empire) in Revelation 17 specifically as a Gentile power that held sovereign, imperial rule over the physical nation of Israel and the city of Jerusalem.
* Egypt as the First: Israel was born as a distinct covenant nation during the Exodus. Therefore, Egypt is the first world power to hold sovereignty over the actual, existing nation of Abraham's descendants.
In Fruchtenbaum's view, Nimrod and the Tower of Babel are crucial for understanding the Harlot of Revelation 17 (the religious and economic system of Mystery Babylon), but not the Seven Heads of the Beast (which represent specific political empires that subjugated Israel).
I guess I should have highlighted or enlarged the part of my post that said:
- Symbol of Rebellion: Originating from the Tower of Babel narrative in Genesis, the city became a biblical symbol of human pride, idolatry, and defiance against God.
So should we say the new covenant replacing the old one?
Yes but that’s revealed later in the nt after Jesus has shed his blood of the new and better covenant ……. There are many figures within the law witnessing of what Jesus would later do for mankind the old had to come first . After israel fell by the old
jesus was sent to restore the preserved of Israel’s tribes but also god said that wasn’t enough , he would also be sent to the gentiles so gods salvation could reach all humanity who he created. He came to restore a fallen people who fell by the old covenant is the point it’s a new thing the old things have come to pass osrwel chose cursing rather than blessing but he made a path for thier salvation through Christ that same salvation was sent to all sinners through those faithful isralites chosen and preserved by god based on his promises in thier covenant
When we are reading the law remember. Who’s ordaining it and who’s mediating it
“Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.”
Exodus 23:20-21 KJV
The gospel is ordained by Christ mediated by Christ he is the high priest and sacrifice the mediator of the new covenant promised ect all of it is Christ there’s no angel mediating or ordaining it who won’t forgive sins ect this makes the doctrine contrary Christ does forgive sin
“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made;( see Matthew 1:1) and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”
Galatians 3:19 KJV
“Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.”
Galatians 3:20 KJV
father son and Holy Ghost as one ……..that’s what the gospel begins teaching not from an angels ordination and governance who won’t forgive , not through Moses a man who himself had sin but mediated from the one God manifest in the flesh of the son , and ordained by his spirit eternal. The gospel is one god speaking for himself to en entirely different purpose because there’s a new covenant emerging with his better words than the old and then shedding of his better blood than that of beasts
“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, ( look before this he’s talking about Moses words from Sinai ) much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:”( Jesus …john 3:31-36)
Hebrews 12:22-25 KJV
Moses words were the old covenant Jesus words are the new during the gospel this overlapped but after Jesus died his words became effectual like a Will and testament
What moses did establishing the covenant with israel was a pattern for what Jesus did later establishing the new covenant when he came at the time appointed
“For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.”
Hebrews 9:17-20 KJV
moses did what god commanded and the covenant was valid from then forth based on the words of Moses on the book of the law read to and agreed to by the tribes of Israel for them and thier homeland. That’s why it came to desolation he warned them specifically many times what would happen if they broke his covenant and worshipped other gods
The blessings in thoer covenant were if they would have obeyed it all they didn’t do the curses came upon them it’s all written but to not acknowledge the covenant made through Moses with israel isn’t the right understanding , at least not in my view .
i know about verses like this
“Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.”
John 5:45-46 KJV
And this
“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.”
John 5:39
But a testimony of him and witness isn’t a covenant being made and can’t nullify the one that had been made it has to come to pass because it’s gods word . Hidden in the law is a promise of a new one later but not according to the same words of the same mediator or ordination
The new covenant is all god no angels or seperete mediations and judgements just father son and holy ghost establishing it in Israel particularly Jerusalem before it’s end ….and then sending it to all nations until the end of it all …..like he said he would
“Ot look ahead for messiah coming, nt messiah came, holy spirit dwell in us.”
yes I agree but there are two covenants still not understanding the argument looking forward to the messiah didn’t cancel thier obligations to thier national covenant …that all was valid and had to come to pass they chose the curse he offered with the blessing
thats why he then said he would make a new covenant there’s a progression ot is governed by Moses law nt is goverened by Christs gospel that’s why the nt offers us the Holy Ghost and rebirth ect and the ot dodnt offer it to any of them …..it wasn’t time but they had a covenant until it was …..
“The law and the prophets were until John: ( the Baptist)
since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
Luke 16:16 KJV
“Now after that John was put in prison,
Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
Mark 1:14-15 KJV
a there’s an appointed time for things in his plan
This is just my personal understanding.
Moses can not be the mediator, Moses blood basically useless for us.
Only Jesus can be the mediator, it is always Jesus blood saves human, from beginning to end.
The ot is the shadow of everything, such as lamb blood shadows Jesus blood.
Nt is the real deal, Jesus is with us.
In ot, people embraced the shadow, God count them as righteous, once Jesus is here, we no longer embrace shadow, we directly embrace Jesus.
They knew God/Jesus.
1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Yes because in ot, it is all about YHVH.
Jesus literally means YHVH saves.
Yes I saw your comment. Which is why I added the Nimrod/Babylon commentary to amplify your correct assertion.
Sneaky. However, I can assist the board by decoding your reply.
What you are REALLY saying is twofold:
1) you reject the millennial earthly reign of Christ.
2) you reject the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel
Yes, it is exceedingly difficult to obtain a straight answer from the amils and hard core Reformed RT's.
There are more than two covenants in the Bible.
The covenant with Noah, Abraham, David, Jacob, the New Covenant.
Out of all the covenants I say the only one that is done away with is the Mosaic covenant which was a covenant where Israel agreed to obey, obviously they failed as fallen men.
“Moses can not be the mediator, Moses blood basically useless for us.”
moses didn’t shed his blood he mediated the covenant by shedding the blood of the beasts God instructed him to sacrifice lambs goats bulls ox ect even doves and things at times in thier covenant law which most assuredly Moses mediated and established with animal blood
Have you ever read the Books of Moses ? The first five books of the Bible ? It’s really foundational understanding for the things that follow after
moses was born at a time israel was being oppressed by a powerful kingdom when babes were being killed . He was delivered and saved into an Egyptian family for a time . Later he was chosen alone by god to take his words to the israelites to lead them to deliverance by gods power out of slavery . He later did miracles of plenty by gods power and command and they were delivered.
He later was chosen by the people to mediate the words of god between tbey and god because they fear god exceedingly after he appears upon the Mount in power and thunder and lightnings and quakes so exceedingly frightful that even Moses shook and trembled and god says this is a good plan and accepts it having himself chosen Moses as the mediator .
And so the people all remain at the foot of the Mount and Moses the mediator of the covenant approaches the glory of God upon Mount Sinai where he’s come down and called Moses the man of god to come up and receive the covenant for the people . He spent fourty days and nights fasting , with god alone on the Mount receiving thier covenant word. He then returns later after much trouble for false idol worship and commands the preists to slaughter all the people at random fornthier idolatry while he was receiving the law . Then later he returns and pleads with god for thier lives interceeding he says “ lord of you won’t have these people then also cast away me from you “ and god repents and accepts Moses intercession for Israel.
He then goes on to lead them even as they rebell and complain against him rejecting much all the while Moses alone approaches god and then after takes gods words to the people like this
This is what happened the people heard and saw gods presence on the Mount and feared
“Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die.
…. Go thou near, ( they’re talking to moses) and hear all that the LORD our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the LORD our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it.
And the LORD heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the LORD said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken.
But as for thee, ( god speaking to Moses ) stand thou here by me, and I will speak unto thee all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess it.”
Deuteronomy 5:25, 27-28, 31 KJV
It’s really plain who the mediator to israel in the old covenant was there’s the whole story to be found from genesis through the first five books of the Bible .
And she also represents Sodom.
But she IS Jerusalem, "where also our Lord was crucified".
Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Yeah I’ve been clear I’m talking about the covenants made with two groups of people first the tribes of isreel through Moses and then the world including them through Christ
i understand individual cofenwnt proloses and things that’s not what I’m talking about I’m talking about the two covenants for gods people first israel through Moses then everyone through Christ.
Amen
“Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.”
Matthew 23:34-38 KJV
Revelation 18:24 just tells you that blood of prophets and saints is found in her, AND ALL THAT WERE SLAIN UPON THE EARTH. Saints have been dying at the hands of Muslims everyday. In fact, many Christian organizations say that more Christians have been martyred all over the world in the last 100 years than all previous periods put together.
We're talking about a bigger system than just the city of Jerusalem.