Man imputed Jesus with sin on the cross, not God.

[ATG]

if God did not impute your sins to christ on the cross.

If God imputed your sins to His Son the cross, then He was made a sinner on the cross, and you were made righteous by crucifying Him.

And God is not the righteous and just Judge of all the earth.

Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

You have no means of forgiveness. You are dead in your sin

The only means of foergiviness is by repenting of our sinnng against Him, through His resurrection from the dead.

Anyone still sinning against Him is dead in their sin.

 

[ATG]

I had no idea so many do not actually understand that Jesus HAD to die on our behalf and GOD is the one who laid OUR sins upon Him.

I have plenty idea why so many do not actually understand that Jesus HAD to die on our behalf, because we sinned against Him. And we are the ones who laid OUR sins upon His back, head, and body.

Because many so many do not want to believe that our own sinning, was the cause of His death on a cross, the same as the wicked hands that slew Him.

God raised Him up because death could not hold him as He was sinless.

Correct. Because He knew no sin, nor had any sin laid upon His soul. Certainly not our sins, that wickedly killed Him.

I mean are people ignoring the Old Testament completely and then substituting humanistic 'feelings' and reasoning to scripture and coming up with 'oh that can't be right'?

Speak of the devil.

People ignore the OT prophecy that only we imputed, recknoned, and executed Jesus for sin on a cross. They'd much rather feel like God did it for us, so as to be justified by His unjust death.

Wicked stuff.

Job 27:8
For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained, when God taketh away his soul?

“God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” II Cor. 5:21

It could not be plainer.

Correct. Imopossible for God to impute, charge, nor lay any sin to any soul, that has no sin, much less the only begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ the righteous.

God made Jesus (who had no sin) to be sin for us.

Continuing to deny this fact, the actual heart of the Bible

The actual heart of Satan is that men didn't charge, impute, and execute Jesus on a cross, but only God the Father did.

Rev 2:24
But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, that they speak;

he was a substitutionary sacrifice on our behalf,

The only thing substituted by the sacrifce, is one physical death for another. Bulls and goats had no souls to be imputed with and bear sins. And the Lamb of God had no sin on His soul.

Only the soul that sins still dies for their own sinning against God and His Son.

The innocent dying for the guilty, is not by first making the innocent guilty. God does not accept an sinful sacrifice.

He that has no sin, has no sin imputed to him, for he has no guilt of any sin at all.

You are denying the actual gospel and for those who teach that lie, it will not go good in the future.

I am denying your actual gospel, that only leads you to make Jesus guilty for your own sinning against God and Jesus Christ.

Gal 1:6
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Anyone can feel that the price of their own sinning, has already been paid by another soul. But feelings aside, everyone soul still dies by our own sinning.

 

[ATG]

Jesus asked the Father in Gethsemane whether He could in any way avoid being judged by men to be a heinous sinner, sin incarnate even, falsely accused by men of capital crimes and tortured and murdered by men. And God made Him allow Himself to be judged by men to be a heinous sinner, sin incarnate even, falsely accused of capital crimes by men and tortured and murdered by men.

But Jesus was not judged by God to be a heinous sinner, sin incarnate, nor was he falsely accused by God of capital crimes, nor was He tortured and murdered by God.

Exactly. Sin incarnate is well said.
No one can look at Jesus' body on a cross, who was unjustly executed by wicked hands, and not sin the full 'incarnate' evil of all sinning against God and man.

His body was made sin incarnate for men to see and repent of sinning.

Rom 7:13
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

His body was made a exceeding sinful example by men, but God made Him to be the cause for our own repentance.

This is how “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (II Cor. 5:21) is fulfilled.

It certainly wasn't for us to be justified for killing Him. Or worse yet, for God to kill Him for us, that we could be justified while sinning against him.

Rev 2:24
But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, that they speak;

 

[OMC]

This is not my quote, but a misquote:

"Only sinful men esteemed Jesus guilty of blaspemy, and smote Him against the law."

"It's only sinful men that did those vile things to Jesus, not God the Father:"

"Only sinful men oppressed, struck, and smote the Son on a cross as a blasphemer. Only unbelieving men say He was accursed of God as by law."


Now a misquote from Scripture:

Isa 53:11
He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

In any case, I certainly accept the appearance of contradiction, since it's the Scriptures that appear to contradict themselves.

You (alone so far) are at least trying to acknowledge the truth of Is 53:4, but then fail to accept it as written, and so produce a contradiction to teach what's written:

Isa 53:34:
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Who is it here, that the prophecy of Scripture says will impute Jesus Christ with sin, and esteem Him smitten of God on the cross. God and man? No. God or man? Man, not God. And if man, not God, then man alone...

Isaiah{50:5}
The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back. I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.

Psa 22:16
For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

Psa 22:16
For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

Act 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Who is it here that fulilled prophecy of Scripture by doing such evil things to Jesus the righteous? the righteous God and sinful men? No. The righteous God or sinful men? Sinful men alone without God.

Therefore, all Scripture pertaining to the accusation, condemnation, suffering, and death of Jesus Christ, must be rightely interpreted by this simple fact: Only sinful men wrongly imputed and did those things to Him, and unjustly esteemed Him guilty and smitten of God.

Will anyone deny it? Will anyone say that sinful men did not impute, esteem, and do those vile things to Jesus? Who would say God Immanuel was with men, when doing those things, and were not alone? Except we first reject the truth of Is 53:3, which leads to proper reading of written things to follow.

You’re arguing that Isaiah 53 presents a single perspective — human estimation — and therefore any divine action language must be reinterpreted as human accusation, but Isaiah himself refuses that collapse; the text gives two perspectives, not one: men “esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted” (53:4), but God says what actually happened in 53:6 and 53:10–12.
Your correction of my wording (“made Him bear”) is noted — the verb is future (“he shall bear”), but the point remains:
Isaiah attributes the bearing of iniquity to the Servant as God’s declared purpose, not man’s accusation.
You keep treating “bear their iniquities” as if it means “men accused Him of iniquity,” but Isaiah never uses nasaʾ that way; accusation is expressed by esteeming, not bearing.
Esteeming is human misjudgment (53:4); bearing is sacrificial load‑bearing (53:11–12).
You correctly show that only sinful men condemned, pierced, smote, spat, plucked, and crucified Him (Isa 50:6; Ps 22:16; Acts 2:23), but that does not erase Isaiah’s contrast — it reinforces it: men performed wicked acts, while God performed the atonement act.
The contradiction you see is not in Scripture but in your merger of two categories Isaiah keeps separate: human estimation (53:3–4) and divine intention (53:6, 10–12).

 

[ScooterJackson]

Exactly.

Which is why some reject Is 53:3-4, in order to continue believing a lie about 2 Cor 5:21 and Is 53:6, etc...

Which is also why they avoid the plain teaching of Is 53:3, in order to continue misreading 2 Cor 5:21 and Is 53:6 for a lie.

If they reject the Lord Jesus being the Lamb of God, then looks like torment in hell is in their future

 

[pinebeach]

I am denying your actual gospel, that only leads you to make Jesus guilty for your own sinning against God and Jesus Christ.

No, you are denying the gospel as it is written in scripture. You are one confused dude and sorry, but it seems we all are going
to leave you in your confusion as a good number of people who are not confused, have tried to help you out.

I will not involve myself in your other convoluted responses. It would be irresponsible for me to waste that much of my time.

 

[ATG]

Lemme guess, we’re stuck at salvation? Another baby staring at his mother’s womb, gaining insight about if he was really born or not.

More like some people stuck staring at Jesus on the cross, and gaining insight whether He was really crucified by God or us.

I'm not stuck. We killed Him, not God.

And so, I go on to repent by His resurrection, and let others stick with God killing Him to justify His crucifixion.

Sinful man imputing Jesus with sin and esteeming Him guilty and smitten of God, does not make God impute His Son with sin, nor smite Him.

 

[ATG]

You are one confused dude and sorry, but it seems we all are going to leave you in your confusion as a good number of people who are not confused, have tried to help you out.

Mat 7:13
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Mat 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

a good number of people who are not confused, have tried to help you out.

No thanks. No help is much better than bad help.

No one is saying you people are confused about what you are saying, even as I am not. Only that you are all confused about what God is saying in Scripture. Willingly.

Jhn 1:5
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Mat 6:23
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

 

[PaulThomson]

Then the chapter keeps talking.

“The Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
“It pleased the Lord to bruise him.”
“He shall bear their iniquities.”
“He bare the sin of many.”

This not the crowd. That is the prophet naming the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:21, Galatians 3:13, and 1 Peter 2:24 say the same thing in different words. If your case is “no verse ever has God putting sin on Jesus,” those verses end the argument in one round.

הִפְגִּיעַ hiphil perfect 3rd person masculine of form of the Qal form, PaaGa' (i.e. of strike upon) Do some research on the sense of the Hiphil form of the Hebrew verb. It presents a causative action, one that is not done directly by the subject but the subject has it done by an intermediary agency. There are several ways to cause something to happen through secondary agents. This verse is not saying in the Hebrew that God Himself laid/struck our sins upon Christ. It is saying that God had some other agent/s inflict our sins upon Christ.

Who are those other agents in the crucifixion story who inflicted on Him the iniquities of us all?
Does "the iniquities of us all" have to mean "all of the actual specific sins of every human being throughout history"? Or, as some would have it, all of the actual specific sins of only the saved"? Or could it mean that the iniquities that were inflicted upon Christ by those at the time were iniquities we are all in general guilty of? They were the same kinds of sins as we all commit. See Jesus explanation of murder in the Sermon on the Mount, for instance.

It pleased the Lord to bruise Him - Gesenius describes KhaaFeTs like this
חָפֵץ KhaaFeTs -
to bend. to curve. Job 40:17, "he bends
his tail."
(2) intrans. and metaph. to incline, to be favour.
able.- (a) to do something; to will, to desire, absol.
Cant. 2:7; 3:5; followed by a gerund, Deut. 25:8;
Ps.40:9; Job:3; 1 Sa. 2:25; by a naked infinitive
Isa-53:10; Job 13:3; 33:32, "I desire
thy justification."
- (6) towards some one, i.e. to
favour him, to delight in him as in God, in men;
to love some one, followed by 2 Gen. 34:19; 2 Sam.
20:11; Nu. 14:8; 2 Sa. 22:20; 24:3; followed by
an acc., Psa. 40:7; Mic. 7:18.
It is also applied to
things, 2 Sa. 24:3.

The Qal is the basic form of a verb. So, God was inclined towards "to-bruise-[Christ]".

"To-bruise" is the Piel form of דָּכָא DaaKaa'. The Piel is an intensive form of the Qal. So, not just to bruise, but to bruise violently, "to-crush-Him."
The infinitive construct is often well-rendered into English as a gerund. So, we could state this as "The Lord approved of crushing Him." Or, "The Lord approved of His crushing." It need not be the Lord doing the the action of crushing. The agent can be inferred from the broader context, namely vv. 3-8 i.e. the men who rejected, despised, tortured and killed Him.
So, Christ is crushed, and the Lord is favourable toward that crushing by others because it fulfils His purpose.

“He shall bear their iniquities.” Is. 53:11
SaaBaL means to carry a heavy load. We talk about someone not being able to bear the abuse being poured upon them and breaking under it. Others manage to bear the abuse. When someone bears abuse, they are not being imputed with the iniquities that their oppressor/s is/are inflicting on them. It is in this way that Jesus is likely to be bearing our (His contemporaries) sins being executed on Him. He put up with them and was not broken by them. This is how, it seems to me, that he bore their iniquities.

“He bare the sin of many.” Is. 53:12
NaaSaa" means literally to lift. Figurative meanings include accept, able to bear, forgive, pardon, receive.
Jesus accepted being struck with men's sins, received those sins thrown at Him, was bale to bear them and forgave and pardoned them. This is how, it seems to me, that Jesus bore the sins of many.

 

[PaulThomson]

Um. No

Humans die. Jesus left his body.. willingly

lol. please try to keep up

they did not give up the ghost. they died.

give up the ghost​

phrase​

Synonyms of give up the ghost
: to cease to live or function : DIE

Yes E-G, people do give up the ghost. You seem to be in serious denial.

 

[PaulThomson]

Reminds me of the devil in the garden : Aww now are you sure? Did God really say that? I don't think He meant that....I think you misunderstood.

When a person totally misses the actual transaction that we call 'the gospel', I think they are either not understanding salvation or,
they think they know better than every commentary, never mind language experts, and are demonstrating all that knowledge.

When you would rather descend to ad hominem attacks rather than candidly discussing the sense of Biblical texts as Gd gave them, you are already flailing.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

If God imputed your sins to His Son the cross, then He was made a sinner on the cross, and you were made righteous by crucifying Him.

And God is not the righteous and just Judge of all the earth.

Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

I did not kill Christ. God the father and spirit turned their back on him while he was still alive. That is where he took the full wrath of god on our behalf.

Stop taking credit for the work of God. You and I are the sinners. we have no power.

The only means of foergiviness is by repenting of our sinnng against Him, through His resurrection from the dead.

Anyone still sinning against Him is dead in their sin.

lol. And here you again are taking credit for saving yourself.

lol. Sorry brother. I would study the NT and see what the NT people who thought as you do did to Christ. No wonder you think you crucified him. They did also..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

give up the ghost​

phrase​

Synonyms of give up the ghost
: to cease to live or function : DIE

Yes E-G, people do give up the ghost. You seem to be in serious denial.

Good God my friend

Jesus left his body willingly. He could have come off that cross right then and set up his kingdom.

I do not just willingly leave my body, My body dies. After Jesus took on our sin. he said it is finished. The payment of sin was done..

 

[Burn1986]

More like some people stuck staring at Jesus on the cross, and gaining insight whether He was really crucified by God or us.

I'm not stuck. We killed Him, not God.

And so, I go on to repent by His resurrection, and let others stick with God killing Him to justify His crucifixion.

Sinful man imputing Jesus with sin and esteeming Him guilty and smitten of God, does not make God impute His Son with sin, nor smite Him.

No one’s thinking that first sentence but you. Sounds like you’re right where Nicodemus was “How can a grown man crawl back into his mother’s womb?” That is literally as much as he could grasp. How would Jesus have explained the baptism of the Holy Spirit to someone like that?

 

[pinebeach]

I'm not stuck. We killed Him, not God.

Read it again. and again and again and again

Jesus actually gave up His life. You basically just troll the forum threads with your petty little jabs at others while expressing error such that people would not be saved if you were the witness to salvation

28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, said (to fulfill the Scripture), “I thirst.” 29 A jar full of sour wine stood there, so they put a sponge full of the sour wine on a hyssop branch and held it to his mouth.

30 When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. John 19: 28-30

You are not in control of the hour of your death but Jesus was. It does not matter whatever insipid and ridiculous comeback you provide in your haste to distort the truth. You are wrong and every time you deny what is plainly written, your heart becomes harder.

 

[pinebeach]

When you would rather descend to ad hominem attacks rather than candidly discussing the sense of Biblical texts as Gd gave them, you are already flailing.

Nonsense. You have very bad comprehension and I certainly have no desire left, after 'discussing' with you somewhat, to continue
the complete waste of time you provide. When you and the op flat out completely deny scripture, twist it into some painful contortion of fabrication and then try to engage those who provide the truth by attempting to engage them in an argument by insult, I know of no one who would continue to provide either one of you with your actual agenda....arguing and providing false information about both the Bible and the person you are jabbing at.

Just nasty what the two of you are doing.