Replacement theology? Yes or No.

[Churchgoer]

Oh yes no doubt times are going to be bad. Then all those who believe in a pre-trib rapture will be like chocolate soldiers melting when the heat is on. They will have to change to the post rapture position I guess.

I see a scenario where Israel is destroyed and Christians having to come to terms with the fact that no temple is going to built, and then they have to wake up to reality. Please do not misunderstand me - I do not wish harm to anyone when I say about Israel being destroyed. I just see it as a real possibility, and proper biblical knowledge following.

I will get called anti-semite now.

"I will get called anti-semite now."
Welcome to the pro Jesus club

 

[OMC]

Jesus taught a pretrib rapture.

Where did Jesus teach a pretrib rapture?

In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus says the gathering of His elect occurs "immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matt. 24:29-31).
He then describes His coming, the visible signs, and the gathering of believers in one sequence.

If Jesus taught a pretrib rapture, where is the passage in which He explicitly separates the gathering of believers from His post-tribulation coming?

Simply saying "Jesus taught a pretrib rapture" is not enough.
The burden is to show the text where Jesus places the resurrection/gathering of believers before the tribulation rather than after it.

 

[Psalm1]

Does anyone know what it means, when the Bible uses the word first fruits?
There is no way, that you can have first fruits without a harvest.
So the entire gathering of the church, and and then the entire gathering of the Jews, gathered in revelation 14, are both tied to 2 completely separate First fruits harvest.
one gathering has Jesus, the first fruits. The other gathering has a 144000 Jewish born again ethnic Jewish men.

 

[OMC]

Does anyone know what it means, when the Bible uses the word first fruits?
There is no way, that you can have first fruits without a harvest.
So the entire gathering of the church, and and then the entire gathering of the Jews, gathered in revelation 14, are both tied to 2 completely separate First fruits harvest.
one gathering has Jesus, the first fruits. The other gathering has a 144000 Jewish born again ethnic Jewish men.

"Firstfruits" does not automatically require two different harvests any more than Christ being called the firstfruits requires a separate resurrection from all believers.

In Scripture, firstfruits are the initial portion offered to God that guarantees the greater harvest to come (1 Cor. 15:20-23; James 1:18). Christ is called the firstfruits of the resurrection because His resurrection guarantees the resurrection of all who belong to Him.

Revelation 14 calls the 144,000 "firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb" (Rev. 14:4), but the text does not explicitly say they are the firstfruits of a separate Jewish resurrection harvest. It simply identifies them as a special group set apart to God.

The burden is to prove from the text that "firstfruits" in Revelation 14 requires two distinct end-time gatherings.
The term itself only establishes a relationship between an initial portion and a larger harvest.
It does not, by itself, define the timing or number of harvests.

 

[Psalm1]

Where did Jesus teach a pretrib rapture?

In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus says the gathering of His elect occurs "immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matt. 24:29-31).
He then describes His coming, the visible signs, and the gathering of believers in one sequence.

If Jesus taught a pretrib rapture, where is the passage in which He explicitly separates the gathering of believers from His post-tribulation coming?

Simply saying "Jesus taught a pretrib rapture" is not enough.
The burden is to show the text where Jesus places the resurrection/gathering of believers before the tribulation rather than after it.

Jesus used Noah gathered before the flood.
Jesus used lot as an analogy to WHEN would be his coming.

Was lot removed pre city burning or after as your doctrine would need?
Was Noah taken up over a mile into the sky post flood or DURING the entire flood?

BTW that is found in mat 24 and Luke 17.

 

[Psalm1]

"Firstfruits" does not automatically require two different harvests any more than Christ being called the firstfruits requires a separate resurrection from all believers.

In Scripture, firstfruits are the initial portion offered to God that guarantees the greater harvest to come (1 Cor. 15:20-23; James 1:18). Christ is called the firstfruits of the resurrection because His resurrection guarantees the resurrection of all who belong to Him.

Revelation 14 calls the 144,000 "firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb" (Rev. 14:4), but the text does not explicitly say they are the firstfruits of a separate Jewish resurrection harvest. It simply identifies them as a special group set apart to God.

The burden is to prove from the text that "firstfruits" in Revelation 14 requires two distinct end-time gatherings.
The term itself only establishes a relationship between an initial portion and a larger harvest.
It does not, by itself, define the timing or number of harvests.

Never said it did.
Reread it.

 

[OMC]

Jesus used Noah gathered before the flood.
Jesus used lot as an analogy to WHEN would be his coming.

Was lot removed pre city burning or after as your doctrine would need?
Was Noah taken up over a mile into the sky post flood or DURING the entire flood?

BTW that is found in mat 24 and Luke 17.

The Noah and Lot analogies do not prove a pretrib rapture.
They prove that God delivers His people before His judgment falls.

Noah was not removed from the earth before the flood.
He was preserved through it.
In fact, he remained on earth the entire time while the wicked were taken away in judgment.

Likewise, Lot was removed from Sodom before the fire fell, but that says nothing about a seven-year gap between his removal and the judgment.

More importantly, Jesus explains the timing in Matthew 24.
After describing the tribulation, He says, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" the Son of Man comes and gathers His elect (Matt. 24:29-31).

So the question remains: where does Jesus explicitly place the gathering of believers before the tribulation?

Noah and Lot establish protection before wrath.
They do not establish a pretribulation rapture.
Matthew 24's explicit timing still places the gathering after the tribulation.

 

[Revelation1v8]

Revelation 14 calls the 144,000 "firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb" (Rev. 14:4), but the text does not explicitly say they are the firstfruits of a separate Jewish resurrection harvest. It simply identifies them as a special group set apart to God.

Revelation 7 absolutely tells you that the 144,000 are only made up of 12,000 each from the 12 tribes of Israel listed, with the Tribe of Dan missing.

 

[HeIsHere]

Oh really? An assertion is not a fact. Arabs have been members of parliament. An Arab judge sent a senior politician to prison. Muslim Arabs are serving in the IDF. They get to vote. Arabs living in Israel had equal rights from 1948. How does that compare with the good ole USA and its black population?

Yes that is true, but most people in your place dismiss facts so I have given up.

There are people here still asserting that the IDF employs discriminate killing even after all that has been revealed, why because they are uninformed or really cannot the handle the truth.
It does not fit nicely into their forgone conclusions.

"Full citizenship” is not the same as full equality.
You can investigate the laws further if you like, because there are laws which
discriminate against non-Jewish citizens, especially in land ownership, housing, and access to resources.

 

[OMC]

Never said it did.
Reread it.

I am not disputing that firstfruits imply a harvest. I am asking for the textual link between the 144,000 as firstfruits and a separate end-time Jewish harvest. That's the step that still needs to be demonstrated from the text.

 

[Revelation1v8]

The burden is to prove from the text that "firstfruits" in Revelation 14 requires two distinct end-time gatherings.
The term itself only establishes a relationship between an initial portion and a larger harvest.
It does not, by itself, define the timing or number of harvests.

The Bible already tells you that the first resurrection happens right after the Great Tribulation period and the rest of the dead (the second resurrection) doesn't happen until after the 1,000 years are over in Revelation 20.

 

[OMC]

Revelation 7 absolutely tells you that the 144,000 are only made up of 12,000 each from the 12 tribes of Israel listed, with the Tribe of Dan missing.

I agree that Revelation 7 identifies the 144,000 as being from the twelve tribes listed there.
I was not disputing their Israelite identity.

My point was narrower.
Revelation 7 tells us who the 144,000 are.
Revelation 14 tells us they are firstfruits.
What still needs to be demonstrated is that these facts require a separate Jewish resurrection or a separate end-time harvest distinct from all other redeemed people.

In other words, the tribal identity of the 144,000 is explicit.
The existence of a separate end-time Jewish harvest tied to them as firstfruits is the conclusion being argued and still needs to be shown from the text itself.

So we agree on what the text explicitly says about the 144,000.
We disagree on what further conclusions must be drawn from it.

 

[Psalm1]

I am not disputing that firstfruits imply a harvest. I am asking for the textual link between the 144,000 as firstfruits and a separate end-time Jewish harvest. That's the step that still needs to be demonstrated from the text.

Did you read what i said?
Jesus is the firstfruits of the church.

Not 144k jewish men.

In no way is it possible.

 

[OMC]

Did you read what i said?
Jesus is the firstfruits of the church.

Not 144k jewish men.

In no way is it possible.

I did read what you said, and I agree that Christ is the firstfruits of the resurrection harvest (1 Cor. 15:20-23).

But that still does not establish your conclusion. The fact that Christ is the firstfruits of the Church does not automatically mean the 144,000 must be the firstfruits of an entirely separate resurrection harvest.

 

[Psalm1]

I agree that Revelation 7 identifies the 144,000 as being from the twelve tribes listed there.
I was not disputing their Israelite identity.

My point was narrower.
Revelation 7 tells us who the 144,000 are.
Revelation 14 tells us they are firstfruits.
What still needs to be demonstrated is that these facts require a separate Jewish resurrection or a separate end-time harvest distinct from all other redeemed people.

In other words, the tribal identity of the 144,000 is explicit.
The existence of a separate end-time Jewish harvest tied to them as firstfruits is the conclusion being argued and still needs to be shown from the text itself.

So we agree on what the text explicitly says about the 144,000.
We disagree on what further conclusions must be drawn from it.

Just saying it is not enough.
You need to show why there is a harvest by Jesus that has men as firstfruits,( and not Jesus), but it does not mean anything.

 

[Psalm1]

I did read what you said, and I agree that Christ is the firstfruits of the resurrection harvest (1 Cor. 15:20-23).

But that still does not establish your conclusion. The fact that Christ is the firstfruits of the Church does not automatically mean the 144,000 must be the firstfruits of an entirely separate resurrection harvest.

Jesus is the firstfruits of the church.
Not 144,000 jewish men.