OSAS, When does salvation take place?

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I do not think you understand the point I am making through the passage in mat 7 I have highlighted.

It is possible to believe and trust in Jesus and not be saved. These men who cry out to Jesus "Lord, Lord' and list out their miricles and accomplishments, fully believed and trust in Christ. And, still yet Jesus says away from me I NEVER knew you.

Thank you for the clarification. I think it's important to understand what others mean and consider different perspectives. That's not always easy in a written forum.

I just picked up my Bible and randomly opened it up. The Holy Spirit brought my eyes immediately to Matthew 7:21 without needing to turn the page or search for it, so I can tell that He considers our online conversation important on this matter.

When I was young and started reading my Bible, I had similar thoughts as is often taught us, which I had trouble reconciling with passages like Ephesians 2:8...and Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us....
What I did was realize that I am just a young man with a lot I still need to learn about the Bible and difficult passages. It would take time and a daily walk with God and perhaps He would reveal those some day. After all, I had a hard enough time understanding man's concepts in my school text books. God's Word is true and must be spiritually learned, so here I am decades later. There are still passages that are a mystery. However, the Lord revealed many over years in study with the Holy Spirit's help.
Last night I was tired and in a hurry, so I'll try to slow down and share what might be worth thinking about after the Lord brought clarity.

First thing we look for is context.
Jesus is teaching His disciples, Matthew 5:1 KJV,
about false prophets 7:15kjv

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Focussing on the judgement of false prophets brings us to vss 21-23.

Matthew 7
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

What is s the will of the Father concerning salvation? Notice Jesus is not talking about turning from hundreds of sins to keep the law as the false prophets taught the people. They all misled the people into looking at the law as the means of salvation when it is the law that condemns. That is the main purpose for Christ to come to the Earth, to do what no man can do, keep the law fully and be the acceptable Sacrifice which taketh away the sins of the world. So, what is that specific "will of my Father which is in heaven?"

40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6

The will of the Father is that we see the Son.
Today that is through His written Word.
AND believe on Him. Believing on Him excludes believing on self, on church, on keeping the law by turning from all our sins or any other works of righteousness that we have done.
Notice that although they prophesied in His name, that is not faith in Him. How many preachers today think they are going to have everlasting life because they are preachers?

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils?

There are deliverance ministries today that use the name of Jesus just like the sons of Sceva. Remember those exorcists? What is casting out devils but another work?

and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
What are they appealing to Jesus as reasons to have life, their faith in Him alone because He did everything necessary when He was beaten bloody, tortured horrifically and hung on a cross to have punishment for all of their sins inflicted upon Him?
No, they did not so much as show gratitude for what the Savior went through before His resurrection. They proclaimed their personal accomplishments.
This was not the will of the Father which is in Heaven.
Now we see clearly the reconciling of this passage with those like John 3:16 and 2 verses later...

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 
Then I think the burden is on you to define what you mean by "believe."
If we agree on this point then why would there be a burden on me to prove anything? The only reason you would need me to define believe is if you are arguing for the sake of arguing.
 
I was asked to start a new thread concerning this comment I made in another thread:

>If you read what He says in mat 7 we find out that we are not 'saved' till Judgement.

>21;“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22;Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23;And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

>Jesus is literally describing a day of judgement where most of us will be judged. The key to reconciling examples in the bible like the thief on the cross who was told today you will be with me in paradise; is that Jesus' judgement is the key. Meaning Jesus can judge you in this life as being saved like the thief on the cross, or He can condemn you as He did the pharisees who blasphemed the Holy Spirit in mat 7. Or it can happen at judgement as described in mat 7 "on that day." (Day of judgement.)

Once this judgement happens and Jesus judges you as being 'saved' you can never loose salvation.

We are not saved when we decide we want to be saved. Why? Because salvation is not a work it is a free gift from God. This means the Prays we pray, the plans of salvation we follow, the sacarments that we take, the creed we declare have nothing to do with biblical salvation. Jesus was asked in luke 10 How do we inherit eternal life:

25Now, a lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26He said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read?”

27;He answered, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’

28He said to him, “You have answered correctly. Do this, and you will live.”

Does this mean that all of the things we do to declare our intention to follow Jesus and be saved keeps us from salvation? No, I'm saying all Jesus said do is Love God with all of our ability to do so, if this means you must take communion and be baptized then for you This is absolutely what you must do to be saved at Judgement.
I'm with you, on this topic.
 
The question is not that they didn’t believe.

Actually that is the only question being addressed here, because in John 5:24 Jesus says: “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

I believe that what Jesus says in Mat 7 states that more is required than simple acknowledgment. The person I was originally speaking with seems to think that I am wrong in my assessment.
The question has always been WHAT did they believe, and what did they trust in for salvation.

Clearly they believed that Jesus is Lord which is why they called out to Him, "Lord, Lord."
They CERTAINLY believed Jesus existed, and did many miracles. Maybe they even believed in more about Him.

But what we DO know is that they never trusted in Him for their Salvation.

IDK are you sure about that? Because they turn to Jesus pronouncing with their mouths that Jesus is Lord twice on the day of their judgement. It would seem to me that they did infact trust Jesus to save them, but where met with the truth many of us will meet.. That He will deny us and tell us we never knew Him.They trusted in THEIR works, and THEIR law following. " Lord, Lord, did WE not do this, and did WE not do that….”
NONE of them said anything like, “Lord, Lord, did we not trust on YOU, and YOUR Sacrifice for the payment of our sin?”

The awful shame is many STILL trust in THEIR works and “ sinless behavior “ to attain or maintain salvation.
Which is different from us when we can't put our trust and salvation in Jesus' hands? When we must point back to a faith that will not allow us to be baptized, or a faith that demands we be baptized?
 
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I'm saying the object of faith is important. Those in Matthew 7 trusted in their works rather than a relationship with Jesus.
Have you read the passage in mat 7 recently?

Jesus' assessment of why He calls them 'Evil doers' and says He never knew them. does not fault them for their works.. Rather their lack of works. More specifically their in ability/unwillingness to do the will of the Father.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Jesus in Luke 10 was asked what must we do to inherit eternal life? Jesus says we must Love god with all of our Hert, Mind, Spirit and Strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves.

Love is the key to salvation Not works or blind faith that has us do nothing. God's will for us is to Love Him with all of our ability to do so and to love our neighbor as ourselves. if we can do this we shall have eternal life. If we can not, then no amount of faith or works will save us. that is the lesson being demonstrated in mat 7:21-23.
 
So I have to work to obtain it?
if love means work then YES!

Eph 2: 8;For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9;not by works, so that no one can boast. (KEEP READING)

10;For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Jesus in Luke 10 was asked what must we do to inherit eternal life? Jesus says we must Love god with all of our Hert, Mind, Spirit and Strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves.

Love is the key to salvation Not works or blind faith that has us do nothing. God's will for us is to Love Him with all of our ability to do so and to love our neighbor as ourselves. if we can do this we shall have eternal life. If we can not, then no amount of faith or works will save us. that is the lesson being demonstrated in mat 7:21-23.
 
Actually that is the only question being addressed here, because in John 5:24 Jesus says: “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
Of course it matters in WHAT you believe. THAT, is THE question. Plenty of people believe in plenty of things. Some even say they believe in Jesus. Just not the Jesus the Bible presents.
Clearly they believed that Jesus is Lord which is why they called out to Him, "Lord, Lord."
EVERY person that has ever lived is going to believe and KNOW that Jesus is Lord when they are kneeled in front of Him on judgement day.
The point is what they believed BEFORE they died and were judged.

IDK are you sure about that? Because they turn to Jesus pronouncing with their mouths that Jesus is Lord twice on the day of their judgement
See above response.


Which is different from us when we can't put our trust and salvation in Jesus' hands? When we must point back to a faith that will not allow us to be baptized, or a faith that demands we be baptized?
I don’t know what this means.
 
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Have you read the passage in mat 7 recently?

Jesus' assessment of why He calls them 'Evil doers' and says He never knew them. does not fault them for their works.. Rather their lack of works. More specifically their in ability/unwillingness to do the will of the Father.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Jesus in Luke 10 was asked what must we do to inherit eternal life? Jesus says we must Love god with all of our Hert, Mind, Spirit and Strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves.

Love is the key to salvation Not works or blind faith that has us do nothing. God's will for us is to Love Him with all of our ability to do so and to love our neighbor as ourselves. if we can do this we shall have eternal life. If we can not, then no amount of faith or works will save us. that is the lesson being demonstrated in mat 7:21-23.
It's not their lack of works, but lack of relationship...I never knew you. They didn't understand God's will or do His will. They believed God's will was to be busy doing things. The work of God is to believe...John 6:29. Read afresh their appeal. They don't say we have trusted in Him. Instead, they say look at what we have done.

If I ask you why you should be allowed in heaven, how would you respond? By the things you have done? Or because of what Christ has done?
 
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It's not their lack of works, but lack of relationship...I never knew you. They didn't understand God's will or do His will. They believed God's will was to be busy doing things. The work of God is to believe...John 6:29. Read afresh their appeal. They don't say we have trusted in Him. Instead, they say look at what we have done.

If I ask you why you should be allowed in heaven, how would you respond? By the things you have done? Or because of what Christ has done?
I was invited😊
 
if love means work then YES!

Eph 2: 8;For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9;not by works, so that no one can boast. (KEEP READING)

10;For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Jesus in Luke 10 was asked what must we do to inherit eternal life? Jesus says we must Love god with all of our Hert, Mind, Spirit and Strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves.

Love is the key to salvation Not works or blind faith that has us do nothing. God's will for us is to Love Him with all of our ability to do so and to love our neighbor as ourselves. if we can do this we shall have eternal life. If we can not, then no amount of faith or works will save us. that is the lesson being demonstrated in mat 7:21-23.
Keep working to get there. You won't.
 
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