OSAS, When does salvation take place?
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Well, you have to wonder if this qualifies for 2 Timothy 2:23: "Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.This connects to my post how.
I have not avoided anything. I am pointing out that Jesus in the warning found in mat 7 never says these miracles where false. I warned you that the only other time in the bible where someone claims a work of the Holy Spirit performed through someone was 'false.' That act was identified as blaspheme of the Holy Spirit. Which is the unforgivable sin. Meaning do not be so flippant with what Jesus identifies as miracles Primarily "casting out demons" or the like, and call if the work of __________. (Fill in the blank)
Remember in mat 12 what Jesus says about demons casting out demons... (It was not possible.) which means casting out demons by these men where legit.
No, I did not. I am pointing out that none of us are saved here now in this life.. That salvation does not happen till judgement. Meaning ALL Miracles the Holy Spirit does through people (In good standing with Jesus at the time of their judgement or otherwise) are legitimate miracles when they are performed.. Example are the miracles Judas performed when Jesus commissioned the disciples and sent them off in pairs in mark 6 and luke 10.
The miracles Judas perform where no less legit than the miracles that any of the other disciples performed, even though he did not 'finish the race' was in good standing with Jesus at his judgement.
Except the bible does not identify The "signs and wonders" they performed as miracles.. The passage describes what they did as having come from their 'secrete arts.' Which points to slight of hand/illusion (trickery)
Exo 7: 11. Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts:
Jesus identified what these men did as "prophesying in His name, casting out demons and 'performed many miracles." Never once did Jesus say their efforts where illegitimate. This means their works where powered by the Holy Spirit.
So no, I did not ask if miracles could be done apart from God. Nor is your example legit as the bible explicitly identifies the 'signs and wonders" performed by by the court magicians as originating from the 'secrete arts.' These are not legit miracles unless you think Penn and Teller are also prophets.
Is that not what you did when you cast aside the examples Jesus gave of people prophesying in his name, casting out demons and performing 'many miracles?'
By the example found in exo 7: 8-12 you are saying these legit works Jesus identifies in mat 7 (prophesying in his name, casting out demons and performing 'many' miracles) are the works of someone other than the Holy Spirit. Which is what the pharisees did in mat 12 so they could win an argument...
Here's the thing. Jesus in this passage never delegitimizes the works of these men. Meaning these works where done by the Holy Spirit. How do we know for 100% sure?
Again, Remember what Jesus says about demons casting out other demons in mat 12.. So we know when Jesus says these men cast out demons, we know it was done by the power of the Holy Spirit. That is why I warned you to be careful. I do not think you committed the unforgivable sin yet.. I think you said what you said out of ignorance/not understanding the ramifications of everything you're argument implies. But again, be careful because you are on the same slippery slop the Pharisees where on when they too where defending their argument.
Mat 12:
24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”
25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
I do not understand your point. Did Jesus 'know' Judas?/Was Judas saved? Yet Jesus still chose Judas to go out and perform miracles preach and teach in Mat 10, Mark 6, and luke 9 with the other 11.
Don't worry about it. You do you and let them do them.
If you don't like what they say then don't read their posts. Easy peasy
Unless one is a follower of reformed theology who go around telling everyone they are a sinner and they sin every day in though word and deed believing they were born a sinner as they cannot cease from sin.
Those guys are hung up in sin and can't get free because they refuse to turn away from their sin.
There won't be any reformers in Heaven since Jesus is going to have all the workers of inquiry removed
John 8:34,35
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Matthew 13:41,42
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Psalms 5:5
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity
In regard to Judas Iscariot being chosen, in John 13:18, we read - I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; BUT that the scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.' Jesus chose Judas, but that does not mean Judas was saved and also Judas was not included in those "whom the Father gave to Jesus to be kept."
John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.
John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Jesus did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost.
Syllogism
1. All given by the Father to Jesus are kept.
2. Judas was not kept.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father
Or this way.
1. None of those given to Jesus by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
2. Judas is lost.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father
In Matthew 10:1, we see that Jesus gave His 12 disciples power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. This would include Judas Iscariot (yet we are not told that Judas himself specifically performed miracles and Christ could grant that power to anyone if He chooses) yet Jesus referred to Judas Iscariot as an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Him. (John 6:71; 13:10-11)
Apparently, Judas may have believed that Jesus' name has the power to cast out demons but did not truly believe in His name (John 1:12) and become a child of God, but instead was the son of perdition. (John 17:12)
John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.
John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Jesus did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost.
Syllogism
1. All given by the Father to Jesus are kept.
2. Judas was not kept.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father
Or this way.
1. None of those given to Jesus by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
2. Judas is lost.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father
In Matthew 10:1, we see that Jesus gave His 12 disciples power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. This would include Judas Iscariot (yet we are not told that Judas himself specifically performed miracles and Christ could grant that power to anyone if He chooses) yet Jesus referred to Judas Iscariot as an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Him. (John 6:71; 13:10-11)
Apparently, Judas may have believed that Jesus' name has the power to cast out demons but did not truly believe in His name (John 1:12) and become a child of God, but instead was the son of perdition. (John 17:12)
Judas was not saved. He had a purpose and fulfilled it.
Yes PLEASE!