False teaching by separating Scripture from Scripture

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Revelation1v8 said:
@Journey_man

This will be the third time this morning that I will use this reference for everyone to understand why God/Jesus came to Israel first and then to the Gentile nations in order to carry out His promises and blessings upon the whole world. As Romans 11 shows, when the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, God will turn around and show mercy on Israel and it's remnant to fulfill ALL of His promises. He will do this through the Millennial Kingdom period on earth before the permanent state of Heaven is revealed (Revelation 20 & 21).

the Bible makes it pretty clear that it was God's plan for the Jews to reject Jesus so that salvation could come primarily through the Gentiles first (as the second born) before He comes back to bless a remnant of the Jews (the first born). In the Jewish world, they always put so much emphasis on giving all of their inheritance to their first born, when God/Jesus mostly (not always) chose to use the second born to carry out His blessing and promises (ie Isaac over Ishmael, Jacob over Esau, etc.)

Excuse me for using A.I. to explain this in more detail and more thoroughly:

The biblical emphasis on the firstborn stems from ancient Near Eastern customs where the eldest son received a double portion of inheritance and served as the family's leader and priest (Deuteronomy 21:17; Genesis 49:3). In the Torah, this status required consecration to God, leading to the pidyon haben ritual where firstborn sons were symbolically redeemed from divine ownership (Exodus 13:2). Israel itself is designated God’s "firstborn" (Exodus 4:22) to signify its privileged covenantal relationship and preeminence among nations.

Jesus and the New Testament writers use the "second born over first born" theme (seen in figures like Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph) to illustrate that spiritual blessing is determined by divine election and faith, not biological priority. This pattern highlights that the younger or chosen line often carries the covenant promise, challenging traditional expectations of birthright. Theologically, this signifies that Christians are the "second born" or spiritual offspring who inherit the blessing through grace, while Jesus is termed the "firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15) to denote his supreme authority and preeminence rather than literal birth order.

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@Journey_man, we know that this Millennial Kingdom is on earth because we still see people living, dying, and repopulating the earth again in Isaiah 65.

So, the Millennial Kingdom is the "age to come" that the Disciples mention before the permanent state of Heaven sets in. God/Jesus will use this time period to fulfill His promises to Israel. Read Luke 24:44.

Once this "age to come" (1,000 years) has passed, then God/Jesus will "place all of His enemies under His feet", including Satan, Hell, and Death like Revelation 20 shows and perform the Great White Throne Judgement.

Then we'll see the permanent state of Heaven come in Revelation 21 & 22. The "age to come" was never Heaven, as it doesn't have a sun or a moon and time is not measured there.

The Bible tells us that Israel will remain a nation and will become a witness for God/Jesus during the Millennial Kingdom period. Again, we know this is on earth because the Bible says that they will remain a nation as long as there are ordinances of the sun and the moon in existence on the earth. Once this heaven and earth pass away, none of this will be needed any longer.

The Bible tells you that not one jot or tittle of the law or His words will pass away until heaven and earth pass away. Once it does pass away, it will no longer be needed, as we will all be living together as one with God/Jesus and we will all become "all in all" like 1 Corinthians 15:28 shows us. But God/Jesus has to put all of His enemies under His feet first.

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Journey_man said:
We all know who the Father represents in the parable.

There were two sons with the Father at the start of the parable.

What do you mean by "what would a son represent". They don't represent the same thing in the parable so you need to rephrase your question.

God only has one Son, so He's not the Father of either the prodigal or his brother.
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Oh wow.
God is not your father?
I just assumed you were a believer.

If obvious components are that big of a challenge to you, then maybe just skip all the parables.
 
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Psalm1 said:
Oh wow.
God is not your father?
I just assumed you were a believer.

If obvious components are that big of a challenge to you, then maybe just skip all the parables.
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I guess Journey_Man doesn't understand how we became "CHILDREN of God" or how a Shepherd has more than one sheep.

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ATG said:
Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

From this one verse alone, anyone could teach that the God of the Bible is the creator of evil things, and so is an evil creator doing evil things. However taken in context of all Scripture together:

Jas 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Here we see that God cannot do evil, because He can't even be tempted with evil. Nor does He tempt anyone to do evil. Therefore, Is 45:7 must be read and taught in context of James 1:13, that the God of the Bible cannot be an evil Creator creating and doing evil. Such as the pagan God Moloch.

Such false accusations against the God of the Bible, however is also done by believers, in order to teach their own false doctrine.
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It's good to point out that the Lord revealed far more in the New Covenant than what was revealed in the old covenant.
As you have rightly done here, it's good to read the old in light of the new.

1 Corinthians 2:12 - Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
 
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Seeker47 said:
I believe the lack of bible instruction is actually a big failure on the part of the church. This shortcoming goes all the way back to the seminaries where church doctrine becomes the focus. I love my Catholic brothers and sisters so please no hate messages. This issue has been particularly evident there. There are entire generations of Catholics versed in doctrine and biblically ignorant. Protestants fare little better.
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All courtesy of the devil and the Lord warned about tares, false teachers coming in not sparing the flock

Acts 20:29 - For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock

Jesus tells us many will come in His Name claiming to be anointed who would deceive many - Matthew 24:5

These are teachers, pastors claiming to be servants of the Lord who are actually working for the devil and few understand this is what has been going on all along and is what's going on today. It's how the false doctrines of catholicism and reformed theology came forth.
 
ScooterJackson said:
All courtesy of the devil and the Lord warned about tares, false teachers coming in not sparing the flock

Acts 20:29 - For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock

Jesus tells us many will come in His Name claiming to be anointed who would deceive many - Matthew 24:5

These are teachers, pastors claiming to be servants of the Lord who are actually working for the devil and few understand this is what has been going on all along and is what's going on today. It's how the false doctrines of catholicism and reformed theology came forth.
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It'sa all reasonbly simple to spot, so long as we objectively read the Bible, and are not preconditioned by previously learned tradtions, and even our own personal beliefs.

All we need to do is what the Bible calls being noble readers: If what is being taught, preached, or even personally believed by ourselves, is not found written in Scripture, then it's only a traditional or personl teaching and belief, not the gospel doctrinal truth of God and Jesus Christ.

Act 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Rev 1:3
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

But then, it takes discipline not to be unduly swayed by what others and we may want to believe, vs what God's Scriptures teach us to believe about God, Jesus Christ, salvation, and eternal resurrection from the dead...

This is why love for the truth must outwiegh any loyalty or sentiment for long held traditions and beliefs.

And of course, there are the usual wanna be lords over God's believers, who don't want to be questioned about what they preach and teach, but only believed and obeyed.
Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
 
Revelation1v8 said:
You need to read Romans 11 again. Once the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, God will return to Israel and have mercy on the remnant in order to start the next "age to come" (1,000 years) and to rebuild Israel and host an earthly Kingdom before it transitions into the permanent state of Heaven as shown in Revelation 20 & 21 (this will show you the order in which things will happen).

Here's Romans 11 again. Read it more carefully this time.

Romans 11:26-32

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

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Romans 11:26 refers to the complete number of God’s elect—comprising both Jews and Gentiles—grafted into the one covenant "olive tree" throughout history (referencing Romans 9:6, "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel").

There will be a significant, widespread future conversion of ethnic Jews prior to the return of Christ.
He is currently reigning from heaven at the right hand of God (the Kingdom of God is inaugurated), and history will culminate in the final return of Christ, the general resurrection, and the eternal state (new heavens and new earth), there will not be a middle 1000-year earthly phase.

Verse 26 says "And in this way all Israel will be saved," meaning through the historical process Paul just described—Gentiles coming in, a partial hardening of Israel, and God continually ingrafting both Jew and Gentile through the Gospel.

Verse 27 speaks about a spiritual redemption—Christ removing sin and turning away ungodliness through the New Covenant, rather than a military or political reinstatement of the Davidic monarchy on earth.

Verses 30–32 emphasize that God has bound all people—Jew and Gentile alike—over to disobedience so that He might show mercy to all. This highlights God's sovereign, unconditional election and the unity of His redemptive plan, rather than a pivot back to a national-ethnic promise for a terrestrial kingdom.
 
Journey_man said:
Romans 11:26 refers to the complete number of God’s elect—comprising both Jews and Gentiles—grafted into the one covenant "olive tree" throughout history (referencing Romans 9:6, "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel").

There will be a significant, widespread future conversion of ethnic Jews prior to the return of Christ.
He is currently reigning from heaven at the right hand of God (the Kingdom of God is inaugurated), and history will culminate in the final return of Christ, the general resurrection, and the eternal state (new heavens and new earth), there will not be a middle 1000-year earthly phase.

Verse 26 says "And in this way all Israel will be saved," meaning through the historical process Paul just described—Gentiles coming in, a partial hardening of Israel, and God continually ingrafting both Jew and Gentile through the Gospel.

Verse 27 speaks about a spiritual redemption—Christ removing sin and turning away ungodliness through the New Covenant, rather than a military or political reinstatement of the Davidic monarchy on earth.

Verses 30–32 emphasize that God has bound all people—Jew and Gentile alike—over to disobedience so that He might show mercy to all. This highlights God's sovereign, unconditional election and the unity of His redemptive plan, rather than a pivot back to a national-ethnic promise for a terrestrial kingdom.
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No surprise that you can't understand the words that were clear and try to take them out of context.

Romans 11:25 - For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the FULNESS of the Gentiles be come in.

The other part are not unblinded until Jesus returns and pours out His Spirit on Israel like Zechariah 13:1 and Ezekiel 36:25 shows you.

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Revelation1v8 said:
@Journey_man, we know that this Millennial Kingdom is on earth because we still see people living, dying, and repopulating the earth again in Isaiah 65.

So, the Millennial Kingdom is the "age to come" that the Disciples mention before the permanent state of Heaven sets in. God/Jesus will use this time period to fulfill His promises to Israel. Read Luke 24:44.

Once this "age to come" (1,000 years) has passed, then God/Jesus will "place all of His enemies under His feet", including Satan, Hell, and Death like Revelation 20 shows and perform the Great White Throne Judgement.

Then we'll see the permanent state of Heaven come in Revelation 21 & 22. The "age to come" was never Heaven, as it doesn't have a sun or a moon and time is not measured there.

The Bible tells us that Israel will remain a nation and will become a witness for God/Jesus during the Millennial Kingdom period. Again, we know this is on earth because the Bible says that they will remain a nation as long as there are ordinances of the sun and the moon in existence on the earth. Once this heaven and earth pass away, none of this will be needed any longer.

The Bible tells you that not one jot or tittle of the law or His words will pass away until heaven and earth pass away. Once it does pass away, it will no longer be needed, as we will all be living together as one with God/Jesus and we will all become "all in all" like 1 Corinthians 15:28 shows us. But God/Jesus has to put all of His enemies under His feet first.

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The "thousand years" in Revelation 20 is a symbolic number. It represents the complete period between the ascension and return of Christ. This means that it is much longer than an actual one thousand years.

Christ is ruling now over a spiritual kingdom that will be immediately consummated at His return, and the new heavens and earth will then be in place.

Eschatology is not a salvific issue, so it's not worth debating. The book of Revelation uses a lot of symbolic and figurative language, so there is no consensus on eschatology among the Theologians.
 
Psalm1 said:
Oh wow.
God is not your father?
I just assumed you were a believer.

If obvious components are that big of a challenge to you, then maybe just skip all the parables.
Click to expand...
As I already mentioned, God only has One Son.

No, I don't believe in your interpretation of any scripture. You have demonstrated that you don't have the gift of discernment. Your theology is strange and your version of the gospel is unbiblical.
 
Journey_man said:
The "thousand years" in Revelation 20 is a symbolic number. It represents the complete period between the ascension and return of Christ. This means that it is much longer than an actual one thousand years.

Christ is ruling now over a spiritual kingdom that will be immediately consummated at His return, and the new heavens and earth will then be in place.

Eschatology is not a salvific issue, so it's not worth debating. The book of Revelation uses a lot of symbolic and figurative language, so there is no consensus on eschatology among the Theologians.
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Christ is ruling now over a spiritual kingdom that won't be immediately consummated until after the 1,000 years are over and Jesus has destroyed Satan, Hell, and Death, like Revelation 20 says.

Again, you didn't understand what Romans 11 was telling you about what comes after the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. Let me lay it out for you again.

Romans 11:30-32

30 For as ye (Gentiles) in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their (Jews) unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

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Journey_man said:
As I already mentioned, God only has One Son.

No, I don't believe in your interpretation of any scripture. You have demonstrated that you don't have the gift of discernment. Your theology is strange and your version of the gospel is unbiblical.
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You have proven over and over again that you can't even discern two parables that essentially mean the same thing.

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Revelation1v8 said:
No surprise that you can't understand the words that were clear and try to take them out of context.

Romans 11:25 - For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the FULNESS of the Gentiles be come in.

The other part are not unblinded until Jesus returns and pours out His Spirit on Israel like Zechariah 13:1 and Ezekiel 36:25 shows you.

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The blindness has not affected every single Jewish person; a historical and ongoing remnant of ethnic Jews has always believed in Jesus Christ.

The fullness of Gentiles does not mean a political or temporal age, nor a literal physical takeover of Jerusalem, but rather the completion of the full, sovereignly elected number of Gentile believers whom God intends to save during this redemptive epoch.

"All Israel" refers to the entire body of God’s elect—comprising both believing Jews and believing Gentiles grafted into the single olive tree of faith, or a great future spiritual harvest/revival among ethnic Jews before or at the end of the age.

The lifting of Israel's blindness and the final completion of God's redemptive plan coincide with the historic return of Christ, wrapping up human history rather than initiating a separate millennial earthly political state.
 
Journey_man said:
The blindness has not affected every single Jewish person; a historical and ongoing remnant of ethnic Jews has always believed in Jesus Christ.

The fullness of Gentiles does not mean a political or temporal age, nor a literal physical takeover of Jerusalem, but rather the completion of the full, sovereignly elected number of Gentile believers whom God intends to save during this redemptive epoch.

"All Israel" refers to the entire body of God’s elect—comprising both believing Jews and believing Gentiles grafted into the single olive tree of faith, or a great future spiritual harvest/revival among ethnic Jews before or at the end of the age.

The lifting of Israel's blindness and the final completion of God's redemptive plan coincide with the historic return of Christ, wrapping up human history rather than initiating a separate millennial earthly political state.
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Not according to Isaiah 65. It shows people living out the promises that God/Jesus fulfills for them in the land, shows them living to be hundreds of years old, and still reproducing upon the earth while Israel is living in peace. So, no it doesn't coincide with the return of Jesus. It happens after the return of Jesus when the "Covenant of Peace" kicks in for Israel.

The Covenant of Peace is a biblical promise of enduring security, harmony, and well-being, primarily referenced in Ezekiel 34:25, Ezekiel 37:26, and Isaiah 54:10. Theologically, it is often identified as the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31) or a distinct eschatological agreement ensuring Israel's safety and divine fellowship.

Biblical and Theological Meanings​

  • Eschatological Restoration: In Ezekiel 37:26, it is described as an everlasting covenant where God establishes Israel in their land, multiplies their numbers, and sets His sanctuary among them forever.
  • Security and Peace: Ezekiel 34:25 promises a covenant that removes "dangerous beasts" and allows Israel to dwell securely, highlighting shalom (comprehensive peace) rather than just the absence of war.
  • Divine Permanence: Isaiah 54:10 compares this covenant to the promise made to Noah, stating that God’s kindness and peace will not depart even if mountains move.
  • Priestly Covenant: In Numbers 25:12, a covenant of peace was granted to Phinehas as an eternal priesthood due to his zeal, interpreted by some as a precursor to the broader national covenant.

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Revelation1v8 said:
Not according to Isaiah 65. It shows people living out the promises that God/Jesus fulfills for them in the land, shows them living to be hundreds of years old, and still reproducing upon the earth while Israel is living in peace. So, no it doesn't coincide with the return of Jesus. It happens after the return of Jesus when the "Covenant of Peace" kicks in for Israel.

The Covenant of Peace is a biblical promise of enduring security, harmony, and well-being, primarily referenced in Ezekiel 34:25, Ezekiel 37:26, and Isaiah 54:10. Theologically, it is often identified as the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31) or a distinct eschatological agreement ensuring Israel's safety and divine fellowship.

Biblical and Theological Meanings​

  • Eschatological Restoration: In Ezekiel 37:26, it is described as an everlasting covenant where God establishes Israel in their land, multiplies their numbers, and sets His sanctuary among them forever.
  • Security and Peace: Ezekiel 34:25 promises a covenant that removes "dangerous beasts" and allows Israel to dwell securely, highlighting shalom (comprehensive peace) rather than just the absence of war.
  • Divine Permanence: Isaiah 54:10 compares this covenant to the promise made to Noah, stating that God’s kindness and peace will not depart even if mountains move.
  • Priestly Covenant: In Numbers 25:12, a covenant of peace was granted to Phinehas as an eternal priesthood due to his zeal, interpreted by some as a precursor to the broader national covenant.

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None of that is true, because it contradicts what the Bible reveals about the matter.

The covenant of peace was inaugurated at Christ's first coming and sealed by His blood. The corporate blessings promised to "Israel" or "Jerusalem" in the Old Testament are spiritually inherited by the Church—the true, multi-ethnic Israel of God—right now.

Ephesians 2:14-18 shows that Jesus is our peace and has already broken down the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile to create "one new man".

Isaiah 65:17 explicitly states, "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth." You believe this refers to the final, eternal state described in Revelation 21–22, which takes place after Christ’s return and the final judgment.

The New covenant prophesied in Jeremiah 31 and inaugurated by Christ, is not a brand-new, unrelated contract that completely sidelines Israel in a way that ignores God's design; rather, it is the mature, full blossoming and administration of the same single Covenant of Grace, now extending globally to include both Jew and Gentile united in Christ.
 
Journey_man said:
None of that is true, because it contradicts what the Bible reveals about the matter.

The covenant of peace was inaugurated at Christ's first coming and sealed by His blood. The corporate blessings promised to "Israel" or "Jerusalem" in the Old Testament are spiritually inherited by the Church—the true, multi-ethnic Israel of God—right now.

Ephesians 2:14-18 shows that Jesus is our peace and has already broken down the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile to create "one new man".

Isaiah 65:17 explicitly states, "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth." You believe this refers to the final, eternal state described in Revelation 21–22, which takes place after Christ’s return and the final judgment.

The New covenant prophesied in Jeremiah 31 and inaugurated by Christ, is not a brand-new, unrelated contract that completely sidelines Israel in a way that ignores God's design; rather, it is the mature, full blossoming and administration of the same single Covenant of Grace, now extending globally to include both Jew and Gentile united in Christ.
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No, the Bible makes it very clear how people will be physically and literally living in the promised land in peace, with God protecting the nation of Israel supernaturally from anyone who tries to come up against it. The reason we know Isaiah 65 and many other chapters of Isaiah are not talking about the new heaven and earth is because people will still be living, dying, sinning (but on a much lower scale because Satan is locked up in the Abyss for that 1,000 years), and they will be reproducing, so no, it starts on earth.

Plus, just like I've already told you, the new Heaven doesn't have a need for a sun, moon, or a temple because God/Jesus is the temple and the light of it like Revelation 21 tells you. Not so in the Millennial Kingdom period here on earth where the Bible says that Israel will remain a nation for as long as the sun and moon exist.

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