God has "Incorporated evil" into His eschatological predictions you say?
Sounds crazy to me. Please explain.
Replacement theology? Yes or No.
- Thread starter Gideon300
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Sounds crazy to me. Please explain.
Actually.....you are not allowed to hate their guts and demand that they cease to exist.You got that right brother.
And we are not allowed to criticize them. Definitely on a pedestal. And many are bowingto them.
Which many on this thread do anyway, gleefully and with great vigor.
I expect dreadful things to accompany this horrid sentiment BTW. Things like this:
[Rev 3:3 KJV] – 3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Did I mention that I have great love and feelings of warmth and reverence for Jews every time that I am so fortunate so as to encounter one?
In principal I agree with this statement.
What I am talking about is less about you and I and more about what the real test of good teaching is.
One aspect of the council of God is that good teaching produces good fruit.
Mathew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
By far the worst fruit is heresies and false doctrine wouldn't you agree? Such as this:
[2Ti 2:17-18 KJV]
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
[2Pe 3:3-4 NKJV]
3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts,
4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of creation."
Oh and BTW, we never did hear a peep out of you as regards your "interpretation" of these passages. Care to chime in? Or perhaps you prefer to ignore them altogether?
You give me reason to question some of my imaginations about that day, but whatever the world becomes after the resurrection I am sure that it is radically different to the way it is now.
There is "no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain" (Rev. 21:4).
All things are made new (Rev.21:5), and we are raised in a "spiritual body" (1 Corinthians 15:44).
It seems that there is a lot more going on here than any of us should be attempting to explain.
I will post the relevant passage in 1 Corinthians in full just to see if it gives you that impression too:
1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
52 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
I agree it will be radically different, no more wars, no more fears, no more death etc, and although we can explain it scripturally, it is something we have not experienced and so can only imagine on a very superficial level.
One thing that we can know about that DAY OF THE LORD that will come as a THIEF IN THE NIGHT in 2 Peter 3:10 is that it is the same day as they keep telling us that the pre-trib rapture is going to happen.
Here it is in 1 Thess. 4.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the DAY OF THE LORD so cometh as a THIEF IN THE NIGHT.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
Keep reading the passage into chapter 5, and it can not be missed.
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
(1 Thess 5:1)
No actually that's 100% false on your behalf and can easily be proved. RT was used to justify the Holocaust, The murder of over 6 million people.
Good teaching comes from those who know their Bible frontwards and backwards because they love God and haveTRUE faith in Him, His promises, and His word, not yours.
--
As we can tell by the uprise in anti-semitism, God is definitely allowing people to turn themselves over to the big lie again because they can't accept truth.
--
Like how 2 Peter 3:10 and 1 Thess. 4:15-5:3 happened on two different days?
"Truth" can be such a harsh word sometimes.
Remember what we spoke about before concerning how some of the prophecies are written?
Let me explain this one to you:
The misinterpretation lies in treating the Day of the Lord as a single, instantaneous event that must occur on one "day," rather than recognizing it as a multi-stage period of judgment that unfolds over a long timeframe. Biblical prophecy often uses a "prophetic normal day" principle, where a single prophetic "day" can represent a long era, allowing events like the Second Coming and the final judgment to span different periods rather than happening simultaneously.
Key aspects of this misinterpretation include:
- Conflating Distinct Phases: 2 Peter 3:10 describes the sudden, unexpected arrival of the Day of the Lord "like a thief," while 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3 details a sequence involving the rapture, tribulation, and final judgment. Treating these as one event ignores the textual distinction between the sudden onset and the subsequent unfolding of judgment.
- Ignoring the "Gap" in Prophecy: Many scholars note that Old Testament prophets often blended distant future events into a single picture without indicating the time gap between them. Misinterpreters fail to account for this "prophetic gap," assuming that because both passages refer to the "Day of the Lord," they must describe the exact same moment in time.
- Literal vs. Figurative Timing: Some interpretations rigidly equate a prophetic "day" with a 24-hour period, leading to confusion when scriptures describe events that clearly span longer durations (e.g., the "day" of the Lord including both the thief-like arrival and the later destruction). This literalism forces a timeline that contradicts the broader biblical narrative of a prolonged eschatological period.
--
If we examine this according to Scripture alone, the biggest issue is that the argument introduces concepts that are not found in the cited texts and then uses those concepts to interpret the texts.
The phrase "prophetic normal day principle" is not taught in any of the passages cited.
Neither 2 Peter 3:10 nor 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3 says that "day" represents a long era.
Before such a principle can be used, it must be demonstrated from Scripture rather than assumed.
Likewise, the claim that 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3 contains a sequence of "rapture, tribulation, and final judgment" is not what the text explicitly says.
Paul speaks of the coming of the Lord, the resurrection of believers, and the Day of the Lord coming like a thief.
The word "tribulation" does not appear in that passage, nor does Paul lay out the detailed timeline being asserted.
That timeline comes from a particular eschatological framework, not from the plain wording of the text.
The statement about a "prophetic gap" is another example.
While it may be true that some interpreters see gaps between prophetic events, the passages cited do not mention a gap.
The existence, length, and location of such a gap must be proved from Scripture rather than assumed because a system requires it.
The argument also appears to assume what it is trying to prove.
It says the Day of the Lord is a long multi-stage period, then interprets every passage through that assumption. But the question under debate is precisely whether Scripture defines the Day of the Lord that way.
Scripturally, both Paul and Peter connect the Day of the Lord with suddenness:
"The day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night" (1 Thess. 5:2).
"The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night" (2 Pet. 3:10).
The texts themselves emphasize unexpected arrival.
Whether the Day includes additional events before or after that arrival must be demonstrated from the passages themselves.
So the clearest man-made frameworks in this statement are:
The "prophetic normal day principle."
The assumption that 1 Thessalonians 4-5 contains a rapture-tribulation-final judgment timeline.
The concept of a prophetic gap between events.
The conclusion that the Day of the Lord is necessarily a long era rather than allowing the passages themselves to define the term.
The proper scriptural question is not, "Which framework best explains the Day of the Lord?" but rather, "What do all the passages that mention the Day of the Lord actually say, and which conclusions are stated by the text versus supplied by the interpreter?"
That keeps Scripture, not a prophetic system, in the driver's seat.
Remember also, what cv5 and I have both told everyone about the "day of the Lord"?
Here's another refresher:
The Day of the Lord is a broad biblical theme referring to any time of dramatic divine intervention, judgment, or deliverance, which can occur historically or eschatologically. In contrast, the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord specifically denotes the climactic, final phase of this period, identified by most scholars as the time of Christ’s Second Coming and the ultimate judgment.
While the general "Day of the Lord" can refer to past events like the destruction of Jerusalem or various prophetic warnings of localized calamity, the "Great and Terrible" designation emphasizes the magnitude and dreadfulness of the final eschatological event. Key distinctions include:
- Scope: The general Day of the Lord is a recurring concept in prophetic literature, whereas the Great and Terrible Day is the singular, ultimate culmination of God’s wrath and justice.
- Timing: The Great and Terrible Day is preceded by specific signs, such as the sun being turned to darkness and the moon to blood, and is preceded by the return of Elijah.
- Nature: Although some suggest the day is "great" for the righteous, linguistic analysis of the Hebrew text indicates that "great" intensifies the "terrible" nature of the day, describing it as an extraordinarily dreadful time of turmoil and calamity for the inhabitants of the earth.
--
Let's look specifically at 1 Thessalonians 4.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The reason the word "rapture" is mentioned is because it shows us that those who are still alive will meet Jesus in the air, just like it says we will. It also says and so shall we ever be with the Lord because we will. It doesn't mean it's the only rapture either, as others are already in Heaven like Revelation 5 shows, exactly by which means are not mentioned in those verses.
When Jesus returns with ALL of His saints, and catches up the believers who are still alive, doesn't mean that unbelievers won't still be on the earth or that they are all destroyed. Why? Because the Bible tells us that He will put the nations through the Sheep & Goat Judgement before He sets up His Millennial Kingdom on earth. Revelation 5 shows you how those that Jesus saved who are sitting in heaven at the time that He starts to break open the seven seals will be reigning with Him ON THE EARTH.
Revelation 5:9-10
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
So, indeed, when Jesus returns to the earth, we will be returning with him and follow Him wherever He goes afterwards, which is eventually to the permanent Kingdom of Heaven.
--
According to Scripture alone, this argument contains several assertions that are not explicitly stated in the biblical text.
The first issue is the distinction between the "Day of the Lord" and a separate "Great and Terrible Day of the Lord" as two different eschatological phases.
Scripture certainly uses the expression "the great and terrible day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31; Mal. 4:5), but the text itself does not explicitly define it as a later subdivision within a broader Day of the Lord period.
That distinction is a theological construct that must be proven, not assumed.
The second issue is the appeal to what "most scholars" identify as Christ's Second Coming and the final judgment.
Scripture is the authority, not scholarly consensus.
The question is not what scholars say the phrase means, but what the text itself says.
The claim that the general Day of the Lord is a "recurring concept" referring to many historical judgments has some support from the prophets, where the phrase is applied to judgments on various nations and peoples (Isa. 13:6-13; Ezek. 30:3; Joel 1:15).
However, moving from that observation to a detailed timeline of multiple phases requires additional interpretive steps not explicitly stated in the passages.
The statement that the Great and Terrible Day is "preceded by the return of Elijah" comes from Malachi 4:5.
But Scripture itself becomes the interpreter here.
Jesus said John the Baptist came in the spirit and power of Elijah and identified him as the Elijah who was to come (Matt. 11:14; 17:10-13; Luke 1:17).
Therefore, before claiming Malachi requires a future Elijah appearance, one must reconcile that claim with Christ's own explanation.
The biggest framework appears in the claim that "great" merely intensifies "terrible" and therefore cannot indicate blessing for the righteous.
Scripture repeatedly presents the Day of the Lord as both judgment and deliverance.
Joel warns of darkness and judgment (Joel 2:1-11), yet in the same context promises salvation to those who call on the name of the LORD (Joel 2:32).
Malachi speaks of the wicked being burned up (Mal. 4:1) but also of the Sun of righteousness arising with healing for God's people (Mal. 4:2).
The text itself presents both realities.
So, from a Scripture-only perspective:
The Day of the Lord is clearly associated with divine intervention and judgment.
The Day of the Lord can bring destruction upon the wicked and deliverance to God's people.
Joel and Malachi speak of a "great and terrible" day.
Scripture does not explicitly define a separate multi-phase prophetic structure called "the general Day of the Lord" versus "the climactic Great and Terrible Day of the Lord."
The detailed distinction being proposed is a framework imposed upon the texts rather than something the texts themselves plainly state.
The key question remains: where does Scripture explicitly state that the Day of the Lord and the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord are two distinct stages rather than different descriptions of the same divine intervention?
Until that text is produced, the distinction remains an interpretation, not an explicit biblical teaching.
According to Scripture alone, much of what you say here is possible, but several key conclusions are being supplied by your end-times framework rather than directly stated by the passages.
What 1 Thessalonians 4 actually says:
The Lord descends from heaven.
The dead in Christ rise first.
Living believers are caught up to meet the Lord in the air.
Believers will forever be with the Lord.
That is what the passage explicitly teaches (1 Thess. 4:15-17).
What the passage does not explicitly say:
That this is one phase of a multi-stage coming.
That a tribulation period follows or precedes this event.
That unbelievers remain alive on earth afterward.
That a millennial kingdom begins immediately afterward.
That this event is separate from the final judgment.
That there are multiple raptures.
Those may be someone's conclusions, but they are not stated in 1 Thessalonians 4.
The statement, "It doesn't mean it's the only rapture either," is a good example.
The text neither says there is only one nor says there are several.
The moment someone starts building a doctrine of multiple raptures from the silence of the passage, he has moved beyond what is written (1 Cor. 4:6).
Likewise, the appeal to Revelation 5 introduces assumptions.
Revelation 5 says the redeemed are before God's throne and "shall reign on the earth" (Rev. 5:10).
It does not explain when they arrived there, how long they have been there, whether they were caught up at different times, or how that relates chronologically to 1 Thessalonians 4.
Those connections come from a prophetic system, not from the explicit words of the texts themselves.
Another framework appears in the statement, "When Jesus returns with ALL of His saints."
Scripture does speak of Christ coming with His saints (1 Thess. 3:13; Jude 14), but proving that every saint seen in Revelation 5 is the same group involved in 1 Thessalonians 4 requires additional interpretive steps that the cited passages do not explicitly provide.
The strongest scriptural point you make is that believers will be with Christ forever.
Paul explicitly says, "so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess. 4:17). No argument there.
The weakest points are where you fill in details that the text does not state:
Multiple raptures.
Unbelievers surviving Christ's return.
The Sheep and Goat Judgment occurring after 1 Thessalonians 4.
Revelation 5 being a chronological proof of a future millennial sequence.
The redeemed in Revelation 5 being in heaven by a prior rapture event.
Those conclusions may be right or wrong, but they are not derived directly from the cited verses.
They come from a premillennial prophetic framework that is being read into the passages and used to connect them.
1 Thessalonians 4 clearly teaches the resurrection of dead believers, the catching up of living believers, and eternal fellowship with Christ. The rest of the timeline being asserted must be demonstrated from explicit texts, not assumed from an end-times system.
LOL! That sure was a lot of words to express absolutely nothing!
I thought you were smart enough to realize that the texts themselves don't plainly state anything throughout a large portion of the Bible. I've told you from the beginning that you have to pick each chapter and verse apart and piece them together like a puzzle so that they make sense in their entirety.
--
Notice in verse 16 - descend with a shout - voice of the archangel -trump of God - --- This so called secret rapture sounds a very noisy and noticeable event
Also regarding the Thief in the night part, in those days thieves used to be bands of robbers on horseback. They would ride into towns and villages blowing trumpets and causing a lot of noise to scare and confused the people. While this was going on other thieves would then pillage the houses.