A Case for Not Reading The Bible Literally

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Inquisitor:
There was a face to face confrontation between Paul and Peter
• Table fellowship with Gentiles: Peter used to freely eat and fellowship with uncircumcised Gentile Christians.
• Fear of the circumcision group: When a group of Jewish Christians sent by James arrived from Jerusalem, Peter became afraid of them and stopped eating with the Gentiles, withdrawing himself to keep separate.
• Hypocrisy and the Gospel: Other Jewish believers—and even Barnabas—followed Peter's example. Paul saw this behavior as hypocrisy and a betrayal of the truth of the gospel, which united Jews and Gentiles through faith in Christ rather than adherence to ritual Jewish laws.
• The Confrontation: Paul publicly opposed Peter "to his face" in front of everyone, arguing that if Peter—a Jew—lived like a Gentile, he had no right to pressure Gentiles to adopt Jewish custom
Galatians 2: 11-14
But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he had clearly done wrong. Until certain people came from James, he had been eating with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he stopped doing this and separated himself because he was afraid of those who were pro-circumcision. And the rest of the Jews also joined with him in this hypocrisy, so that even Barnabas was led astray with them by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not behaving consistently with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “If you, although you are a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you try to force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”
 
The Confrontation: Paul publicly opposed Peter "to his face" in front of everyone, arguing that if Peter—a Jew—lived like a Gentile, he had no right to pressure Gentiles to adopt Jewish custom
Where in Galatians does it say "Jewish customs"?

I will repeat what I said earlier.

Acts 10:27-28
As he talked with him, he entered and *found many people assembled. And he said to them, “You yourselves know that it
is forbidden for a Jewish man to associate with or visit a foreigner; and yet God has shown me that I am not to call any person
unholy or unclean.

Peter was released from the law and everything pertaining to that which is unholy under the law. That includes association
with the Gentiles. Whether the Gentiles ate seafood of various types or pork has nothing to do with Paul's argument.

Acts 15 highlights the very same Jewish idea that the Gentiles being lawless. Must also be circumcised and conform to
the requirements of the law.

Acts 15:5
But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct
them to observe the Law of Moses.”

Now read the following extract from the letter to the Galatians.

Galatians 2:14
But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all,
“If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

Galatians 2: 15-16
We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles; nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works
of the Law
.

The text does not say Jewish customs but is not justified by the works of the Law.

The "works of the law" is conforming to the inward and outward practice of the covenant law.

Paul's reference pertains to the entire covenant law and that includes the prophets also.

To reduce Paul's condemnation of Peter to a simple customary practice of table fellowship. Upends Paul's entire argument
about the role of the covenant law and Jesus Christ.
 
OMC:
Again much agreement, but let me inject a little strangeness into the question of what happens to the dead. Matthew 27:51-52 is part of the story of Jesus's crucifixion. "Just then the temple curtain was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks were split apart and tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had died were raised. (They came out of the tombs after his resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.) As there was not yet a collection of dead Christian saints, who were possible "saints" to the gospel writers of 60-90 AD who came out of their graves?
They would have had to have been saints from OT times. That's all we can know for sure.
 
Jesus said it was real and the torment would be everlasting.

Is it possible Jesus is right and those teaching annihilationism are wrong?

I'm going with Jesus being correct myself.
Yes, Jesus said it is real but where does He says the torment is everlasting?
Please supply the biblical references for this.

The punishment for sin is death. It is an everlasting punishment. Eternal death.
No where does the bible says the punishment for sin is eternal life in torment.
Quite the contrary actually.
 
Un, no. There is one and only one Christian “religion”, worldwide.

There are, however, many denominations.
Mormons call themselves Christians. Are they just another denomination? Are they part of the Body of Christ as most people understand it?
 
I had posted this as its own thread, but apparently it wasn’t “approved”. I guess there’s an all-knowing all-powerful moderator on here who decides what can or can’t be discussed and can click threads they don’t like into oblivion?

Anyway, this seems like a good thread to post it on since it’s in the same vein of discussion, i.e., literalism

Is this forum afraid of the so-called “serpent seed doctrine”? I searched it out, and only three threads on this entire board have ever addressed it, the last one being in 2013 and decidedly against it, the other two posted by people who are now banned from the forum. I don't want to be banned, but I'm always looking to gain biblical insight. Seems like it's verboten to even discuss it. Are people afraid to discuss or debate it because some wrong-headed people use(d) it to justify racism and slavery, and if they entertain it they'll be labeled as racist too? Is it so biblically misguided that to even bring it up is ridiculous?

I've been studying this for years and have historically dismissed it based on the fact that its two most well known proponents (William Branham and Arnold Murray) were supposedly and probably racist nut jobs. However in the last year or so I've been gaining overall clarity in the Bible by entertaining the possibility that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, wasn't an actual tree, and the "serpent" wasn't an actual reptile. This is backed up in the New Testament, even in Christ's own words.

Are we allowed to flesh this out or is it too scary for some people to even think about?
 
I had posted this as its own thread, but apparently it wasn’t “approved”. I guess there’s an all-knowing all-powerful moderator on here who decides what can or can’t be discussed and can click threads they don’t like into oblivion?

Anyway, this seems like a good thread to post it on since it’s in the same vein of discussion, i.e., literalism

Is this forum afraid of the so-called “serpent seed doctrine”? I searched it out, and only three threads on this entire board have ever addressed it, the last one being in 2013 and decidedly against it, the other two posted by people who are now banned from the forum. I don't want to be banned, but I'm always looking to gain biblical insight. Seems like it's verboten to even discuss it. Are people afraid to discuss or debate it because some wrong-headed people use(d) it to justify racism and slavery, and if they entertain it they'll be labeled as racist too? Is it so biblically misguided that to even bring it up is ridiculous?

I've been studying this for years and have historically dismissed it based on the fact that its two most well known proponents (William Branham and Arnold Murray) were supposedly and probably racist nut jobs. However in the last year or so I've been gaining overall clarity in the Bible by entertaining the possibility that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, wasn't an actual tree, and the "serpent" wasn't an actual reptile. This is backed up in the New Testament, even in Christ's own words.

Are we allowed to flesh this out or is it too scary for some people to even think about?
The “serpent seed doctrine” is not biblical.
Gen 4:1 shows Cain was Adam's son.
Gen 3:1 shows that the serpent was still one of the beasts of the field that God had made. It just says he was more "subtle" (as in "crafty") than the others. Hinting that he was smarter than a cow......

Perhaps your thread was seen as promoting racism and beast relations?
That's why it was deleted.

But Adam was also guilty. How do you explain that?
 
I had posted this as its own thread, but apparently it wasn’t “approved”. I guess there’s an all-knowing all-powerful moderator on here who decides what can or can’t be discussed and can click threads they don’t like into oblivion?

Anyway, this seems like a good thread to post it on since it’s in the same vein of discussion, i.e., literalism

Is this forum afraid of the so-called “serpent seed doctrine”? I searched it out, and only three threads on this entire board have ever addressed it, the last one being in 2013 and decidedly against it, the other two posted by people who are now banned from the forum. I don't want to be banned, but I'm always looking to gain biblical insight. Seems like it's verboten to even discuss it. Are people afraid to discuss or debate it because some wrong-headed people use(d) it to justify racism and slavery, and if they entertain it they'll be labeled as racist too? Is it so biblically misguided that to even bring it up is ridiculous?

I've been studying this for years and have historically dismissed it based on the fact that its two most well known proponents (William Branham and Arnold Murray) were supposedly and probably racist nut jobs. However in the last year or so I've been gaining overall clarity in the Bible by entertaining the possibility that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, wasn't an actual tree, and the "serpent" wasn't an actual reptile. This is backed up in the New Testament, even in Christ's own words.

Are we allowed to flesh this out or is it too scary for some people to even think about?

This is a Christian forum that holds to traditional fundamentals of the faith. I wouldn't call it a fundamentalist forum because members of all mainline denominations are here.
Gross heresies/sins are frowned upon.

For example, when someone blasphemes, tries to convert others into Deuteronomy 18 sins or justify drug use to teenagers, they should go bye bye and never allowed back.
 
Mormons call themselves Christians. Are they just another denomination? Are they part of the Body of Christ as most people understand it?
Just because someone calls themselves Christian does that mean they really are?
How can you tell the difference?

Some leaders say, "Jesus died for our sins, now go kill anyone who does not believe this."
Others will say, "We are all saved. Now drink this kool-aid and give some to your children too so we can go immediately to heaven."

Are they speaking the truth when they say Jesus died for our sins?
 
The “serpent seed doctrine” is not biblical.
Gen 4:1 shows Cain was Adam's son.
Gen 3:1 shows that the serpent was still one of the beasts of the field that God had made. It just says he was more "subtle" (as in "crafty") than the others. Hinting that he was smarter than a cow......

Perhaps your thread was seen as promoting racism and beast relations?
That's why it was deleted.

But Adam was also guilty. How do you explain that?
I can answer every one of your points using scripture, but I'm not interested in derailing the OP's thread with this. I want to know why it can't be discussed in its own thread? Is this forum collectively afraid of the topic? A lot of posters on this thread seem to agree that many parts of scripture are allegory and/or parable and are not to be taken literally. So then why are many of those same people stuck on a rigid literal interpretation of the Creation and Fall? It's schizophrenic.
 
I can answer every one of your points using scripture, but I'm not interested in derailing the OP's thread with this. I want to know why it can't be discussed in its own thread? Is this forum collectively afraid of the topic? A lot of posters on this thread seem to agree that many parts of scripture are allegory and/or parable and are not to be taken literally. So then why are many of those same people stuck on a rigid literal interpretation of the Creation and Fall? It's schizophrenic.
Parts that are obviously symbolic should be taken that way. Let the bible interpret it's own use of the symbols in those texts.
Like the statue in Dan 2 or the beasts rising out of the sea in Dan 7 and Rev 13.

Others (like historical accounts) should be taken literally as things that actually happened.
The creation and fall were literal events. The Great Flood, etc.

There will always be some indication in the text if it means something literal or symbolic.
Nothing in the creation story hints at anything other than a literal account.
 
Parts that are obviously symbolic should be taken that way. Let the bible interpret it's own use of the symbols in those texts.
Like the statue in Dan 2 or the beasts rising out of the sea in Dan 7 and Rev 13.

Others (like historical accounts) should be taken literally as things that actually happened.
The creation and fall were literal events. The Great Flood, etc.

There will always be some indication in the text if it means something literal or symbolic.
Nothing in the creation story hints at anything other than a literal account.
As I said before, the allegorical nature of Genesis 3, etc., is backed up in the New Testament, even in Christ's own words. Ya know, an "indication".
 
As I said before, the allegorical nature of Genesis 3, etc., is backed up in the New Testament, even in Christ's own words. Ya know, an "indication".
I wont argue with you about it.

Nothing in Gen 3 indicates it is allegorical in nature.
In fact the entire Pentateuch is historical in nature. Therefore to be read as exact literal accounts.

Sure, some things can represent or mean something else (such as the brass serpent in the wilderness or sacrificing a lamb for redemption from sin) but that does not discount the exact literal nature of the texts. There was a literal brass serpent made during the Exodus. They did literally kill animals for sin sacrifices.

You cannot just pick and choose arbitrarily what is allegorical vs literal.
Evolutionists take that route with the creation story.
Satanists take the stance that neither God nor Satan really exist. They just represent the good vs bad natures of humanity....
 
Just because someone calls themselves Christian does that mean they really are?
How can you tell the difference?

Some leaders say, "Jesus died for our sins, now go kill anyone who does not believe this."
Others will say, "We are all saved. Now drink this kool-aid and give some to your children too so we can go immediately to heaven."

Are they speaking the truth when they say Jesus died for our sins?
I'm curious, Who said those things?

I've been a believer in Jesus Christ since I was a teenager. I have never heard anyone calling themselves Christian quoted as saying that.
 
As I said before, the allegorical nature of Genesis 3, etc., is backed up in the New Testament, even in Christ's own words. Ya know, an "indication".
Jesus and His disciples taught Genesis as literal facts. Jesus Himself proved that He was the Almighty when He created food to feed thousands of families, give life to the dead and heal all of their disabilities.
 
Mormons call themselves Christians. Are they just another denomination? Are they part of the Body of Christ as most people understand it?
A Mormon calling calling himself a Christian does not make it so any more than a man calling himself a woman makes it so.
 
But annihilationists would say exactly the opposite.
They would argue that they are taking seriously Jesus' warnings about destruction, perishing, death, and being burned up.

But the annihilationists actually are calling Jesus a liar.

The issue is: "What did Jesus mean?"

Jesus means what He says and says what He means.

The annihilationists are causing people that would consider getting born gain to decide not to after hearing the lies from the the annihilationists that they won't suffer in hell for eternity

These people are literally working for satan to convince people to not get born again no matter how well meaning that may think they are. They are being used by the devil as mouth pieces to spread his lies and deception.

If the doctrine is false, then demonstrate it from the text.

Already did and the annihilationists claim Jesus lied.

In other words they say what Jesus said is not true exactly like satan did with Adam and Eve in the garden
That's what the devil does is provide nice sounding alternatives to what the Lord says to deceive people in to not believing the Lord.

The moment we start treating every theological disagreement as evidence that someone is a tare, we stop discussing Scripture and start judging hearts. God knows the hearts. Our task is to reason from the text.

You need to accept the warnings the Lord placed in His Word about deception being the most dangerous thing in the end times.
End times started when Jesus took upon flesh and came in to this world.
 
But the annihilationists actually are calling Jesus a liar.



Jesus means what He says and says what He means.

The annihilationists are causing people that would consider getting born gain to decide not to after hearing the lies from the the annihilationists that they won't suffer in hell for eternity

These people are literally working for satan to convince people to not get born again no matter how well meaning that may think they are. They are being used by the devil as mouth pieces to spread his lies and deception.



Already did and the annihilationists claim Jesus lied.

In other words they say what Jesus said is not true exactly like satan did with Adam and Eve in the garden
That's what the devil does is provide nice sounding alternatives to what the Lord says to deceive people in to not believing the Lord.



You need to accept the warnings the Lord placed in His Word about deception being the most dangerous thing in the end times.
End times started when Jesus took upon flesh and came in to this world.
I have no problem accepting the warnings about deception.
In fact, I agree that deception is one of the dominant themes of the New Testament.
Jesus repeatedly warned, "Take heed that no man deceive you" (Matt. 24:4), and the apostles echoed the same concern.

But notice what you are doing. You have moved from: "Deception is dangerous."
to: "Therefore annihilationism is demonic deception."
That second statement still has to be proven from Scripture.

You keep saying annihilationists are calling Jesus a liar.
They would say exactly the opposite.
They would argue that they are taking literally Christ's warnings about destruction, death, perishing, and being consumed.

Now, I happen to disagree with their interpretation.
But disagreement over the meaning of a text is not the same thing as calling Jesus a liar.

The real question remains: What did Jesus mean when He used terms such as "destroy," "perish," "death," "eternal punishment," "unquenchable fire," and "their worm dieth not"?
That is an exegetical question, not a question that can be settled merely by assigning motives.

You say: "Jesus means what He says and says what He means."
Amen.

But annihilationists say exactly the same thing.

Universalists say exactly the same thing.

Calvinists say exactly the same thing.

Arminians say exactly the same thing.

The dispute is not whether Jesus tells the truth.
The dispute is what He intended by His words.

Furthermore, I think there is a danger in your argument.

If we start saying that every believer who reaches a different conclusion on a difficult doctrine is "working for Satan," we have effectively ended biblical discussion.

Paul corrected Peter.

Apollos needed further instruction.

The Corinthians had serious doctrinal confusion.

Yet the apostles reasoned from Scripture rather than immediately declaring everyone a servant of the devil.

Even in your example from Genesis, Satan did not merely offer a competing interpretation.
He openly contradicted God: "Ye shall not surely die" (Gen. 3:4).
The question is whether annihilationists are doing that, or whether they are attempting, rightly or wrongly, to understand all the relevant passages.

I think they are mistaken.
But being mistaken is not automatically the same thing as consciously opposing Christ.

My concern is simple:

If the doctrine of eternal conscious punishment is true, then demonstrate it from the texts.
Show how the passages fit together.
Show why the annihilationist reading fails.
The stronger your biblical case is, the less need there is to accuse opponents of satanic motives.

Deception is indeed dangerous.
But one of the easiest ways to stop careful exegesis is to declare that anyone who disagrees with us must be an agent of deception.

I would rather keep asking: "What does the text say?"
Because Scripture, not accusations, is the authority.
 
I'm curious, Who said those things?

I've been a believer in Jesus Christ since I was a teenager. I have never heard anyone calling themselves Christian quoted as saying that.
You must be the only Christian that has never heard of the crusades and the Inquisition.
Or about Jim Jones founder of the People's Temple in Jonestown Guyana.