Obedience REQUIRED

[Freed18]

So it seems after looking at your reply again you have fully understood what I was indicating which I wasn't sure in my last reply which am now ? , but it looks like you would rather neglect what you've understood, with your answer, the reality here is there is over whelming scriptures that suggest being under the father first before the son is not simultaneous, and I would ask you to show me in scripture how you've come to this understanding, as guessing it's different because it's 2000 years after christ, isn't really backing your attempt to disprove what you've understood.

Also it's not wise to carry on believing and supporting a doctrine when you have clear instruction that shows you that you need to look at something, that's not wise,

Would you care to elucidate on knowing the Father before knowing the Son ?

 

[Freed18]

Once again, you confirm everything I stated about you and your error in my post, but you are simply blind to it.


As I’ve said before, you do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior.

If I didn't think Jesus was my Savior, I would not have gotten water baptized in His name for the remission of my past sins.
And I would never have taken to heart the admonissions and exhorations of His apostles.

 

[Freed18]

I would be careful with that statement. Every true believer has received the Holy Spirit, and Paul does say: "But we have the mind of Christ" (1 Cor. 2:16).

True, every true believer has received the gift of the Holy Ghost, after their turn from sin and baptism...just as Peter commnaded in Acts 2:38.

However, possessing the mind of Christ does not make any of us infallible in our interpretations.

Having the mind of Christ precludes misinterpretations.

The Corinthian believers had the Holy Spirit, yet Paul still corrected them on numerous issues.

Would you call adulterers and those with a me first attitude charcteristic of those in Christ ?
I don't.
They were still carnal, for crying out loud !

The Galatians had received the Spirit, yet Paul asked, "Who hath bewitched you?"
The churches in Revelation were indwelt by the Spirit, yet Christ still rebuked and corrected them.

Why do you think they had the Holy Spirit ?
Why does anyone think the disobedient have anything at all to do with Christ ?

So I would say: Thanks be to God that He has given His Spirit to His people.
Without the Holy Spirit, none of us could understand spiritual truth at all.

Doesn't that teach you that those who don't understand, (excepting very new converts), also don't have the gift of the Holy Spirit ?

But the fact that I have the Holy Spirit does not exempt me from testing my conclusions against Scripture, nor does it mean that everyone who disagrees with me lacks the Spirit.

Maybe not at first, but if they refuse to accept the teachings of one with the Holy Ghost, they just prove their separation from God.

The strongest position is not: "I have the Holy Spirit, therefore my interpretation must be correct."
Rather: "I have the Holy Spirit, therefore I should humbly submit my interpretation to the whole counsel of God's Word."
After all, sincere believers on opposite sides of many doctrinal debates have confessed Christ, possessed the Spirit, and appealed to Scripture.
The question is not who claims the Spirit, but which interpretation best fits what God has actually said.

As any interpreation from a man with the gift of the Holy Ghost perfectly aligns with God, isn't it obvious that those who disagree with that man don't have God's Spirit in them ?

 

[Freed18]

You teach salvation by works when the Bible says we are not saved by works in general. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Works salvation is no salvation at all and all you can say is so what?

I teach obedience to the one who bought my salvation.
I do not teach we must keep the Law to be saved...just as Paul taught.
You seem to have added everything, including obedience to God, as a work of the Law.

1 John 1:8 - f we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Those who claim sinless perfection are suffering from a terminal case of self-righteousness.

Addresses those who walk in darkness, which Pro 4:19 says is the way of the wicked.
Sinners cnnot say they have no sin.
Nor can they say they have fellowship with God, (1 John 1:6), or that they even know Him. (1 John 2:3)
However those walking in the light, (which is God in whom is no darkness-sin), can say yes to all of those things !

Not the works of the Law..circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, sabbath keeping, priesthoods, tithing AND also includes the moral aspect of the law

No, the law Paul taught against for salvation does not include the ten commands written on our hearts, as loving God and neighbor are encapsulated in them.
No adulterer, murderer, coveter, liar, oridolater, tc. is converted, and certainly will not be found in the book of life on the last day.

God imputes righteousness apart from works (Romans 4:6) saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us (Titus 3:5) God saved us saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works. (2 Timothy 1:9)

Yes, apart from the works fo the Law...circumcision, dietary rules, etc.

Through repentance/believing in Him/faith. (Acts 3:19; 5:31; 10:43; 15:7-9; 26:18; Romans 3:24-26 etc..)

Amen, repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and enduring faithfully until the end !
Just as Peter said in Acts 2:38.

You continue to confuse the reality (Spirit baptism) with the picture of the reality (water baptism). Acts 2:38 must be read alongside verses like (Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18) where forgiveness is explicitly tied to repentance/belief/faith and not water baptism.

I will stick with Peter's Acts 2:38 admonission, and Ananias' admonission to Saul in Acts 22:16, on the subject of water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
Peter said turn from sin and get baptized, and you will get the gift of the Holy Ghost...which is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

In Acts 22:16, the cleansing happens as he calls on Christ, not by the water itself. The water is symbolic; the appeal to Christ’s name is the saving act. Romans 10:13 - For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. *Hermeneutics.

I disagree.
Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is for the remission of past sins.
Just as John's baptism remitted sins so too does baptism in the name of Jesus Christ remit past sins.

The remission of sins has three applications: 1. Literally, by the blood of Christ - Matthew 26:28 2. Experientially, by faith in Christ - Acts 26:18 3. Figuratively, by water baptism - Acts 22:16
Excellent article on Acts 22:16 - WHAT IS TRUTH: Acts 22:16--Baptism Essential for Salvation?

Obey Peter, and ignore the skeptics.

Why is the laying on of hands before receiving the Holy Spirit found in certain cases but not in every case of conversion?

It isn't a 'before' situation but a 'for' situation.
The Spirit was passed on from one man to another by the laying on of hands.

Baptismal regeneration is a false gospel.

I disagree.

Again, a symbol is not the reality but is a picture of the reality. You are trying to turn a symbol into a savior.

Without faith in the originator of the gift of water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, there is no remission of past sins.

1 Peter 1:23 - having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever. The word "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. ( John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, and we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the washing of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)

Our rebirth occurs when we are raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
That happens after our old man is destroyed with Christ at our "immersion" into Christ's death. (Rom 6:6, Gal 5:24)
That "immersion" is our water baptism in the Lord's name for the remission of past sins.
May God be praised for His miraculous intercession on our behalf !

 

[PaulThomson]

You need to learn ASAP that disobedience is death and death is being separated from the Lord

"Death" is not "being separated from the Lord". It is not possible to be separated from the Lord, since He is everywhere. If I die and go to hades, He is even there.

Psa 139:7
Whither shall I go from Your Spirit? or whither shall I flee from Your Presence?
Psa 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, You are there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.


No other thing can separate us from God's love, because God is love and God is everywhere. The only way we can experience ourselves being separated from God is if we refuse to love Him and refuse open up to Him. and try to hide ourselves from Him

Rom 8:38
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, northings to come,
Rom 8:39
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God did not separate from Adam when Adam sinned. God did not separate from Cain when he murdered Abel.

 

[OMC]

True, every true believer has received the gift of the Holy Ghost, after their turn from sin and baptism...just as Peter commnaded in Acts 2:38.

Having the mind of Christ precludes misinterpretations.

Would you call adulterers and those with a me first attitude charcteristic of those in Christ ?
I don't.
They were still carnal, for crying out loud !

Why do you think they had the Holy Spirit ?
Why does anyone think the disobedient have anything at all to do with Christ ?

Doesn't that teach you that those who don't understand, (excepting very new converts), also don't have the gift of the Holy Spirit ?

Maybe not at first, but if they refuse to accept the teachings of one with the Holy Ghost, they just prove their separation from God.

As any interpreation from a man with the gift of the Holy Ghost perfectly aligns with God, isn't it obvious that those who disagree with that man don't have God's Spirit in them ?

That conclusion simply does not follow from Scripture.

If having the Holy Spirit made a believer infallible in interpretation, there would have been no need for most of the New Testament epistles.

The Corinthians were called "sanctified in Christ Jesus" (1 Cor. 1:2), yet Paul corrected them repeatedly.

The Galatians had received the Spirit (Gal. 3:2-3), yet Paul asked, "Who hath bewitched you?"

The seven churches in Revelation were addressed as churches of Christ, yet several were sharply rebuked.

So Scripture itself shows Spirit-indwelt believers can be mistaken, immature, inconsistent, and in need of correction.

You ask why I think the Galatians had the Spirit. Because Paul explicitly says they did (Gal. 3:2-5).

Likewise, possessing "the mind of Christ" (1 Cor. 2:16) does not mean possessing omniscience.
It means the Spirit enables us to understand spiritual truth.
We still grow in knowledge, test doctrine, and correct errors.

Your position creates a problem.
If everyone with the Holy Spirit interprets Scripture perfectly, why have sincere, godly believers disagreed on doctrine since the first century?

The apostles did not say: "Whoever disagrees with me lacks the Spirit."
They reasoned from Scripture.

The test is not, "Does this person agree with me?"
The test is, "What has God actually said?"

That is why even believers must continually test their conclusions against the whole counsel of God rather than assuming that possessing the Spirit makes every interpretation automatically correct.

 

[carbunculus]

That which God has given to Jesus for our salvation is adeqate for our salvation.
To study One is to study both the Father and the Son.

The commands we have from Jesus and His apostles on how to be saved, are sufficient for salvation on the day of judgement.
Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, amd strength, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.

This doesn't show the relationship to be simultaneously from your your idea here, your idea here point towards the father and son being one, and for many things this is Good, but however this still doesn't answer the question you where asked, and again I must stress that understanding a believer does have a relationship with the father first before being accepted by the son is very important to understand.

Your next answer of go ahead and educate me, doesn't seem like your interested, so I'm not sure how to reply to this remark, you don't seem to interested.

Are you Catholic ?

 

[rogerg]

If I didn't think Jesus was my Savior, I would not have gotten water baptized in His name for the remission of my past sins.
And I would never have taken to heart the admonissions and exhorations of His apostles.

No. Placing yourself between Jesus Christ and salvation clearly shows that you are relying on yourself as savior rather than recognizing Jesus Christ alone as the Savior.

 

[mailmandan]

I teach obedience to the one who bought my salvation.

You teach salvation by obedience/works. I teach salvation by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) You teach that we are saved BY good works and I teach that we are saved FOR good works. (Ephesians 2:10) Big difference! In Romans 1:5, we read - Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith (obedience that comes from faith) among all nations for His name. The purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God after conversion. You have the cart before the horse.

I do not teach we must keep the Law to be saved...just as Paul taught. You seem to have added everything, including obedience to God, as a work of the Law.

I do not teach we must keep the law to be saved either. I do not teach salvation by works in general either. I'm not turning obedience to God into works of the law. I am simply pointing out to you that the law is not merely limited to circumcision, dietary rules, sabbath keeping, feast keeping, tithing etc.. but also includes the moral aspect of the law (Exodus 20:1-17; Leviticus 19:18; Deuteronomy 6:5) which does not exclude good works. (James 2:15-16) So, the saved by "these" works (good works) and just not "those" works (works of the law) argument which is often taught by those who teach salvation by works is bogus.

Addresses those who walk in darkness, which Pro 4:19 says is the way of the wicked.
Sinners cannot say they have no sin.
Nor can they say they have fellowship with God, (1 John 1:6), or that they even know Him. (1 John 2:3)
However those walking in the light, (which is God in whom is no darkness-sin), can say yes to all of those things!

Those who say they have no sin (1 John 1:8) deceive themselves and the truth is not in them. For these folks who fail to confess their sins and instead, say they have no sin or have not sinned, their sins have not been forgiven, and they are walking in darkness. These remain in their sins and neither have fellowship with God and do not know God.

1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, which is descriptive of genuine believers.

Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- to watch over, to guard (biblehub.com)

Verse 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not "keep" (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. That is 'descriptive' of unbelievers/make believers. John is not talking about sinless, perfect obedience to the 10 commandments under the law of Moses. In God there is no sin and in Christ the blood of Christ has washed away our sins.

No, the law Paul taught against for salvation does not include the ten commands written on our hearts, as loving God and neighbor are encapsulated in them.

Again, you cannot dissect the 10 commandments from the moral aspect of the law. (Exodus 20:1-17; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40) So, you are seeking justification by obeying the 10 commandments instead of by faith? Where did Paul say we are saved by obeying 10 commands written on our hearts instead by faith in Christ in the NT?

No adulterer, murderer, coveter, liar, oridolater, tc. is converted, and certainly will not be found in the book of life on the last day.

This is descriptive of those who have not been saved by grace through faith and have not had their sins washed away by the blood of Christ. Hence, their sins remains: adulterer, murderer, coveter, liar, idolater etc.. For those who have been converted: 1 Corinthians 6:11 - And such were (past tense) some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. In the eyes of God, no longer sinners, but saints, thanks to Jesus Christ.

Yes, apart from the works fo the Law...circumcision, dietary rules, etc.

Don't leave out the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:1-17) which is also included in the law of Moses. (Matthew 22:37-40)

CONTINUED..

 

[mailmandan]

Amen, repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and enduring faithfully until the end!
Just as Peter said in Acts 2:38.

What happened to baptism in (Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; 5:31; 10:43; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 26:18)? Enduring faithfully until the end is a conditional confirmation that one is a child of God. Those who fail to endure demonstrate otherwise.

I will stick with Peter's Acts 2:38 admonission, and Ananias' admonission to Saul in Acts 22:16, on the subject of water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.

Of course, you will stick with your biased interpretation of Acts 2:38 and Acts 22:16 which negates salvation through faith and culminates in salvation by works because you teach salvation by works. In Acts 2:38, for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47) In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit -Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18. *Hermeneutics.

In Acts 22:16, the cleansing happens as Paul called on the name of the Lord and not literally by water baptism. The water is symbolic; the appeal to the name of the Lord is the saving act. Romans 10:13 - For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The remission of sins has three applications:

1. Literally, by the blood of Christ - Matthew 26:28

2. Experientially, by faith in Christ - Acts 26:18

3. Figuratively, by water baptism - Acts 22:16.

Acts 22:16 - WHAT IS TRUTH: Acts 22:16--Baptism Essential for Salvation?

Peter said turn from sin and get baptized, and you will get the gift of the Holy Ghost...which is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The only logical and Biblical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18) *Perfect Harmony*

I disagree.
Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is for the remission of past sins.
Just as John's baptism remitted sins so too does baptism in the name of Jesus Christ remit past sins.

Repentance is unto/for the remission of sins, just as we see in (Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; 5:31). So, what do you do with those verses? Simply disregard them because they don't mention baptism? Was John's baptism in (Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3) for "in order to obtain" the remission of sins or was it for "in regard to/on the basis of the remission of sins" received upon repentance? Also, in Matthew 3:11, we read - I baptize you with water for repentance.. Now was this baptism for "in order to obtain" repentance? OR for "in regards to/on the basis of" repentance? Obviously, the latter. Repentance "precedes" baptism, so baptism is in regard to/on the basis of the remission of sins received upon repentance. (Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; 5:31)

Obey Peter and ignore the skeptics.

Obey Peter after carefully considering the totality of scripture on the subject and ignore the skeptics who promote works salvation.

It isn't a 'before' situation but a 'for' situation.
The Spirit was passed on from one man to another by the laying on of hands.

So, why was the laying on of hands done in a few examples of conversion but not in all examples of conversion in the NT?

I disagree.

Of course, you disagree because you teach salvation by works.

Without faith in the originator of the gift of water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, there is no remission of past sins.

Without faith (repentance implied or assumed/two sides to the same coin (Acts 3:19; 5:31; 10:43; 11:17,18; 20:21 etc..) there is no remission of sins. Water baptism follows repentance/faith/remission of sins. (Acts 10:43-47)

Our rebirth occurs when we are raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
That happens after our old man is destroyed with Christ at our "immersion" into Christ's death. (Rom 6:6, Gal 5:24)
That "immersion" is our water baptism in the Lord's name for the remission of past sins.
May God be praised for His miraculous intercession on our behalf !

Spirit baptism is the reality, and water baptism is the picture of the reality. Being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life/our old man is destroyed with Christ into Christ's death is signified but not procured in water baptism. False religion turns signs and symbols of salvation into the substance and the source.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

As I won't be able to say "I am saved" until I find my name is in the book of life, what are you basing your self-status on exactly ?

The promises of God.

Abraham has faith and God saved him.

He did the same for me.

I am sorry you do not trust in Gods promises.

What accusation ?

ultimate aim of the doctrine you present is the abolishment of obdience to God

if you can not understand your false accusation against what I believe.. then you will not get very far.

The gospel isn't something you obey, as this is the gospel..."Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" (1 Cor 15:1-4)
Not much to obey there.
Perhaps you meant, obey the commandments of the Lord and of His disciples for your conversion and to live a Godly life thereafter ?
Which seems a little ironic, given the title of the OP.

I am not the one teaching I am saved because I obey my friend.

so not sure what your trying to get at.. Maybe you wrote this to yourself so you can see?

I'll follow the bibles directives, like..."But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another," (1 John 1:7)
And..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:3-6)
And..."And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him." (1 John 2:28-29)

Oh I believe all of these passages.

But like you stated. that are not what saves us, nor do they keep us saved.

we are not under law but under grace.

 

[Lamar]

There are two aspects to being born again. One is the position, which what God grants us when we receive Christ. At the new birth, we receive everything that God is ever going to give us. And it is all in Christ. The second aspect is our condition. Our condition is what we experience in real life of who we are in Christ.

Many think that they have to change their behaviour in order to be acceptable to God. Those who are born again are already acceptable to God, even if they do not realise it.

Christian maturity includes the realisation that the work of Christ was finished, exactly as He said from the cross. I realised that many years ago. It is the place called the knowledge of the truth. And that is God's will for all mankind.

The knowledge of the truth brings a peace that is beyond understanding. I no longer have to strive, and I never did. I just did not know it. The truth is not a sentiment or a sensibility. Truth is the basis for faith. And Truth is a person, Jesus.

So yes, you are wrong.

Your words are mostly claims of the metaphysical and personal experience. You cannot see this in your own words because you are too deep into the New Age ditch to see it. Most people who follow New Age beliefs are unaware of it.

Your claims of being born again holds no more weight on this forum than mine.

I answered your question about if I am RC. It seems you are ignoring my question about if you are New Age. I will take this as a yes.

 

[amazingrace]

Red Herring is a logical fallacy. It means you're trying to change the subject. Now, back to my question. It sounds like you're bearing false witness against me.

What verse of scripture do you not understand?

Thks

 

[amazingrace]

Red Herring is a logical fallacy. It means you're trying to change the subject. Now, back to my question. It sounds like you're bearing false witness against me.

What verse 9

It works for me. I love Jesus, I am born again, my life is full because I know Him to be my life right now. Too many believers think that they have to suppress the bad and strive to be good. That is a recipe for failure and defeat. I learned the secret: "for me to live is Christ..."

Only those who are born again can see the kingdom of God. Catholic understanding of being born again is unbiblical. It's not a process. Either you are born again or you are not. I don't know if you are RC or not, but you come across as if you are. Correct me if I'm wrong.

How did you get born again?

Thks

 

[amazingrace]

Red Herring is a logical fallacy. It means you're trying to change the subject. Now, back to my question. It sounds like you're bearing false witness against me.

What verse 9

The Passage you cited is talking about sowing. I didn't say anything about sowing.

it's not a vending machine.

Yes, it is true. To say otherwise is not to understand grace.

Explain your concept of grace don't forget 1Jn 1:6=7

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

And

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Thks

 

[amazingrace]

Red Herring is a logical fallacy. It means you're trying to change the subject. Now, back to my question. It sounds like you're bearing false witness against me.

What verse 9

Amazingrace, if the grace that brings salvation is purchased by humility, then it isn't grace: grace is its own beginning and end. You are trying to turn man's supposed humility into an earthly performance used to buy a free gift. 1 Corinthians 1:19-20 clearly states that God will destroy the wisdom of the wise and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Trying to trade man's compliance for grace is part of the world's wisdom that God makes foolish. Further, 2 Corinthians 1:19-20 states that the promises of God are not yea and nay, but in Christ they are ALL Yea and Amen and it is God alone who places someone "in Christ". Salvation is a certainty that was achieved by a complete and perfect Savior, Jesus Christ, not a conditional contract that depends on man's ongoing humility as one of its stipulations. It is not possible for a dead corpse in Adam to manufacture its own humility to grant spiritual life. True spiritual humility is the effect of God granting salvation and quickening a dead heart; it is never the cause of it. 1 Peter 5:5 when understood in context is an exhortation to living sheep regarding church feeding, oversight, and fellowship, not a checklist for a dead man to get born again.

Jesus promises salvation to the humble?

Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Thks

 

[amazingrace]

"Death" is not "being separated from the Lord". It is not possible to be separated from the Lord, since He is everywhere. If I die and go to hades, He is even there.

Psa 139:7
Whither shall I go from Your Spirit? or whither shall I flee from Your Presence?
Psa 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, You are there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.


No other thing can separate us from God's love, because God is love and God is everywhere. The only way we can experience ourselves being separated from God is if we refuse to love Him and refuse open up to Him. and try to hide ourselves from Him

Rom 8:38
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, northings to come,
Rom 8:39
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God did not separate from Adam when Adam sinned. God did not separate from Cain when he murdered Abel.

Spiritual death is to be devoid of grace and union with God

Deadly sin separates us from Christ's life and grace

1 John 5:16
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Thks

 

[amazingrace]

The promises of God.

Abraham has faith and God saved him.

He did the same for me.

I am sorry you do not trust in Gods promises.

ultimate aim of the doctrine you present is the abolishment of obdience to God

if you can not understand your false accusation against what I believe.. then you will not get very far.

I am not the one teaching I am saved because I obey my friend.

so not sure what your trying to get at.. Maybe you wrote this to yourself so you can see?

Oh I believe all of these passages.

But like you stated. that are not what saves us, nor do they keep us saved.

we are not under law but under grace.

Under grace means that works good or evil do matter?

Thks

 

[amazingrace]

Christianity is not a merit based religion, as if it it was you would have to throw out a high amount of of the lord's word and his finished work before the cross.
Our rest is in the lord's righteousness,. Because in that that we don't them struggle in trying achieve perfection.

I could actually go into a whole discussion about trying to achieve perfection and write a whole book on it, but for now even when you master one thing in your life, you then have to maintain it, and in Christianity overcoming sin can only be done through our advocate, as if we sin we have an advocate with our father, that advocate is Jesus, which means we can not save ourselves when we sin.


Listen merit based religions is all about performance
And for most part, all tho such people will not admit it, all there actually doing is balancing there bad deeds with good deeds.

Because true Christianity is about trusting on Jesus in what he achieved in life death and resurrection.

Christianity is not about trusting in our own morals, or about performance, now it may be you can trust in enjoying your own company, as I do, knowing that my grace is sufficient for me, as by grace we have been saved through faith, which was not of our own, which means his faith and his grace, because it is written, that when we sin we can not save ourselves and we need an advocate, and it is written the advocate is Jesus.

Matthew 6:20
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

Jn 15:1-11

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10 if ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

Thks

 

[amazingrace]

Choosing to believe the gospel is not a work that merits salvation. Through believing the gospel we are trusting in Another's work (Christ's death, burial and resurrection). Jesus Christ still gets 100% credit for our salvation.

You believe that it "happened," but you don't believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation.

So, no mention of believing in Him/believing the gospel/faith? Acts 10:43 - Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins. Acts 15:7 - And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Acts 2:38 must be read alongside verses like (Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18) and consider the fact that forgiveness is explicitly tied to repentance/belief/faith and not water baptism.

Luke 24:47 - and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 5:31 - Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. *What happened to baptism?

Repentance and faith in Christ are two sides to the same coin. Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

The only logical and Biblical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18) *Perfect Harmony*

Salvation by sinless perfection and water baptism is a "different" gospel that culminates in salvation by works.

Spirit baptism is the reality, and water baptism is the picture of the reality. A symbol is not the reality but is a picture of the reality. You are trying to turn a symbol into a savior.

Must or will? Obedience is not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God. (1 John 3:7-10)

Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

In regard to 1 John 3:6, in Greek, the verb tense for "sinning" is in the present continuous tense, which means to keep on or practicing sin an ongoing lifestyle of sin and not mere occasional acts of sin. This does not mean that Christians achieve sinless perfection as John earlier notes in 1 John 1:8-10. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us and if we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

1 John 3:6 (AMP) - No one who abides in Him [who remains united in fellowship with Him—deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin. No one who habitually sins has seen Him or known Him.

In regard to 1 John 3:7, those who practice righteousness do so BECAUSE they are righteous and not in order to become righteous. This is not our own personal righteousness but the righteousness which is of God by faith/imputed righteousness. Practicing righteousness is the demonstrative evidence that we are children of God. (1 John 3:10)

1 John 3:7-10.

The Mosaic Law also covers the moral aspect of the law which includes good works. (Leviticus 19:18; Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37-40; James 2:15-16) So, not saved by works is not exclusive only to specific works of the law but also includes works in general. Abraham was before the law and the work of offering up his son on the altar did not cause him to be accounted as righteous. (Romans 4:2-3) Paul also said we are not saved by works of righteousness (literally works done in righteousness) which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us.. and in 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul said that He saved us and called us with a holy calling not according to our works.. Sorry to burst your bubble but there will be no boasting for you.

Salvation and good works are impossible without the grace of God. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Romans 11:6 - But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

2 Timothy 1:9 - who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity.

Begun in grace!
Done in grace!
Finished in grace!

All the power of Grace and the life of grace, it don't mean works ain't involved but that these works are empowered by grace!

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Thks