Replacement theology? Yes or No.

[Cameron143]

Jesus Christ is currently ruling SPIRITUALLY. He returns to reign over the earth PHYSICALLY AND LITERALLY before the Kingdom of Heaven comes down and for all to share in His Glory.

---

God has always ruled and reigned over the earth...Psalm 24:1. Further evidence...Daniel 4:35. I could go on. God is in control of history. History is following a divine plan and is on a divine timeline. The purpose of history is the unfolding of the kingdom of God in the earth.

This was the plan from the beginning. God made man in His image and tasked him with the responsibility of multiplying and filling the earth. The idea was that as man multiplied the image of God throughout the earth, the glory of the knowledge of the Lord would fill the earth. When sin entered in, the image of God was marred in man, making this goal impossible with man in such an estate. Hence, God sent Jesus to redeem fallen man so God's original intention would come to pass. And it is. It started small, but like a mustard seed, the kingdom of God is growing and will one day fill the earth with the knowledge of the glory of God. The One overseeing all of this is Jesus.

To say He is simply spiritually ruling and reigning is false. He is actively proliferating the kingdom by building His church and nothing is hindering Him. The kingdoms of this world are becoming the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ...Revelation 11:15. God has chosen to do this slowly and progressively throughout history. Though 2,000 years of history has transpired and there are millions more Christians now than when the church began, the church is still in its infancy and it will continue to grow until it consumes all the other kingdoms and the knowledge of the glory of the Lord fills the earth.

God is, and always was, in control of all things.

 

[Churchgoer]

God has always ruled and reigned over the earth...Psalm 24:1. Further evidence...Daniel 4:35. I could go on. God is in control of history. History is following a divine plan and is on a divine timeline. The purpose of history is the unfolding of the kingdom of God in the earth.

This was the plan from the beginning. God made man in His image and tasked him with the responsibility of multiplying and filling the earth. The idea was that as man multiplied the image of God throughout the earth, the glory of the knowledge of the Lord would fill the earth. When sin entered in, the image of God was marred in man, making this goal impossible with man in such an estate. Hence, God sent Jesus to redeem fallen man so God's original intention would come to pass. And it is. It started small, but like a mustard seed, the kingdom of God is growing and will one day fill the earth with the knowledge of the glory of God. The One overseeing all of this is Jesus.

To say He is simply spiritually ruling and reigning is false. He is actively proliferating the kingdom by building His church and nothing is hindering Him. The kingdoms of this world are becoming the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ...Revelation 11:15. God has chosen to do this slowly and progressively throughout history. Though 2,000 years of history has transpired and there are millions more Christians now than when the church began, the church is still in its infancy and it will continue to grow until it consumes all the other kingdoms and the knowledge of the glory of the Lord fills the earth.

God is, and always was, in control of all things.

Absolutely brother!
This is the reason us believers are not worried about anything. Just obey Jesus commandments. That's our responsibility.

 

[cv5]

The future is in God's hand, not ours.

GOD did not tell Joseph brothers to sell him, and call that a righteous act.
God did not tell Judas to sell Jesus, and call that a righteous act.
God did not tell the crowd to stone stephan, and call that the righteous act.

God only tell us to follow the commandments, which is not murdering, stealing .....

Many today are saying they behave like Judas, and the jew leaders to crucify Jesus so that they are helping Jesus resurrection?
They are helping Israel state to murder, plunder, to help Jesus 2nd coming?

The intended message of the "type" of Joseph is that he graciously forgave and delivered his brethren from wrath and judgment DESPITE their sinful actions against him.

And yet you hold a grudge and continually condemn the Jews whom Christ (seen by the exemplar of Joseph) demonstrably loves?
And worse, fail to grasp the fact that the message of Joseph and his brothers in Genesis is in fact PROPHETIC of the deliverance of the Nation Israel yet future?

Oh yea. You really are that far gone. A hopeless case of blind hatred again the Jewish nation that has inexorably led to your OWN blindness. For example your utter blindness to the obvious indented prophetic parallel noted in this passage.

Act 7:13
And at the second time Joseph was made known to his brethren; and Joseph's kindred was made known unto Pharaoh.

 

[cv5]

God is, and always was, in control of all things.

According to you: except for His prophetic plan for the Restoration of the Kingdom to the Nation Israel after the Greater Joseph redeems his brethren, aka YHVH redeems Gomer aka Boaz redeems Naomi. You have never admitted that any of this will ever come to pass. Nor have you affirmed that these "types" bear any significance in terms of prophetic fulfillment.

BTW, your absurd notion that redeemed souls drift around like ghostly phantasms was epically debunked.

In 1 Corinthians 15, the apostle Paul uses the language of "putting on" (endysasthai, akin to putting on clothing) to describe the change that occurs at the resurrection.

To understand why "corruptible" and "mortal" refer specifically to a renewed physical body rather than a non-corporeal or purely spiritual existence, one must look at the immediate Greek terminology and the overall argument of the chapter.

The terms phtharton ("corruptible") and thneton ("mortal") specifically denote physical materiality subject to decay and death—qualities that belong exclusively to biological flesh. Paul explicitly grounds this transformation in the physical bodily resurrection of Jesus (1 Cor 15:12–20), which served as the "firstfruits" (aparche) or blueprint for believers. Christ's resurrected body was not a ghost or a dematerialized spirit, but a tangible, physical body capable of being touched and eating food (Luke 24:39–43), yet fully glorified and liberated from mortality.

Furthermore, Paul’s contrast earlier in the chapter between the "natural body" (soma psychikon) and the "spiritual body" (soma pneumatikon) in verse 44 reinforces physical continuity. In Greek, a soma always denotes a physical body; calling it pneumatikon does not mean "made of spirit" (intangible energy), but rather "empowered/animated by the Holy Spirit"—just as a "natural body" (soma psychikon) is animated by the natural soul, not literally made of soul-substance.

Therefore, when this mortal "puts on" immortality in verse 53, the underlying physical substrate (soma) is not discarded or replaced by an immaterial state; rather, the existing physical body is redeemed, transformed, and clothed with imperishable, heavenly life.

 

[cv5]

Yes, here's a further explanation of that:

Abraham was declared righteous by faith before he was circumcised, establishing that salvation is a gift of grace received through belief rather than a reward for ritual observance. According to Romans 4:9-11, his faith was "counted to him as righteousness" while he was still uncircumcised, meaning his justification was not dependent on the physical sign of the covenant.

Circumcision served only as a "sign and seal" of the righteousness he already possessed by faith, rather than the source of that righteousness. This sequence proves that salvation is by faith alone, making Abraham the spiritual father of all who believe—both circumcised and uncircumcised—without requiring adherence to the Law or physical rites for justification.

--

Another day, another epic flaming train wreck as regards the dogma of the CT's, RT's, preterists, amils and their ilk.

It just never ends well for them. And what is more amazing to me, they never learn.

 

[Revelation1v8]

God has always ruled and reigned over the earth...Psalm 24:1. Further evidence...Daniel 4:35. I could go on. God is in control of history. History is following a divine plan and is on a divine timeline. The purpose of history is the unfolding of the kingdom of God in the earth.

This was the plan from the beginning. God made man in His image and tasked him with the responsibility of multiplying and filling the earth. The idea was that as man multiplied the image of God throughout the earth, the glory of the knowledge of the Lord would fill the earth. When sin entered in, the image of God was marred in man, making this goal impossible with man in such an estate. Hence, God sent Jesus to redeem fallen man so God's original intention would come to pass. And it is. It started small, but like a mustard seed, the kingdom of God is growing and will one day fill the earth with the knowledge of the glory of God. The One overseeing all of this is Jesus.

To say He is simply spiritually ruling and reigning is false. He is actively proliferating the kingdom by building His church and nothing is hindering Him. The kingdoms of this world are becoming the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ...Revelation 11:15. God has chosen to do this slowly and progressively throughout history. Though 2,000 years of history has transpired and there are millions more Christians now than when the church began, the church is still in its infancy and it will continue to grow until it consumes all the other kingdoms and the knowledge of the glory of the Lord fills the earth.

God is, and always was, in control of all things.

Hey, you were the one that said Jesus was currently residing inside of us and I confirmed it. Stop being a hypocrite. I never said that God/Jesus haven't ruled over the earth since its inception. Jesus came PHYSICALLY into the world since then and he will RETURN PHYSICALLY AGAIN. That's the only point I was making. Stop being so obtuse.

---

 

[Revelation1v8]

Another day, another epic flaming train wreck as regards the dogma of the CT's, RT's, preterists, amils and their ilk.

It just never ends well for them. And what is more amazing to me, they never learn.

They never learn because...

Matthew 16:23 -

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

--

 

[Churchgoer]

The intended message of the "type" of Joseph is that he graciously forgave and delivered his brethren from wrath and judgment DESPITE their sinful actions against him.

The brothers repented first. Please read that section of Bible. Judah offered himself to be in jail in pace of ben.

And yet you hold a grudge and continually condemn the Jews whom Christ (seen by the exemplar of Joseph) demonstrably loves?

True love is telling them the truth of Jesus. Not like you, telling them to perish without salvation. Why do you hate jews so much?

And worse, fail to grasp the fact that the message of Joseph and his brothers in Genesis is in fact PROPHETIC of the deliverance of the Nation Israel yet future?

Jesus already delivering believers, continuingly! See the fruit.

Oh yea. You really are that far gone. A hopeless case of blind hatred again the Jewish nation that has inexorably led to your OWN blindness.

Speak that to yourself, who is condemning jews to perish.

For example your utter blindness to the obvious indented prophetic parallel noted in this passage.

Act 7:13
And at the second time Joseph was made known to his brethren; and Joseph's kindred was made known unto Pharaoh.

Exactly after the brothers repebted. Know the Bible!

 

[Revelation1v8]

The brothers repented first. Please read that section of Bible. Judah offered himself to be in jail in pace of ben.

True love is telling them the truth of Jesus. Not like you, telling them to perish without salvation. Why do you hate jews so much?

Jesus already delivering believers, continuingly! See the fruit.

Speak that to yourself, who is condemning jews to perish.

Exactly after the brothers repebted. Know the Bible!

LEARN YOUR ENTIRE BIBLE!!!

Zechariah 13

1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Zechariah 14

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.

Ezekiel 36

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

----

 

[Cameron143]

According to you: except for His prophetic plan for the Restoration of the Kingdom to the Nation Israel after the Greater Joseph redeems his brethren, aka YHVH redeems Gomer aka Boaz redeems Naomi. You have never admitted that any of this will ever come to pass. Nor have you affirmed that these "types" bear any significance in terms of prophetic fulfillment.

BTW, your absurd notion that redeemed souls drift around like ghostly phantasms was epically debunked.

In 1 Corinthians 15, the apostle Paul uses the language of "putting on" (endysasthai, akin to putting on clothing) to describe the change that occurs at the resurrection.

To understand why "corruptible" and "mortal" refer specifically to a renewed physical body rather than a non-corporeal or purely spiritual existence, one must look at the immediate Greek terminology and the overall argument of the chapter.

The terms phtharton ("corruptible") and thneton ("mortal") specifically denote physical materiality subject to decay and death—qualities that belong exclusively to biological flesh. Paul explicitly grounds this transformation in the physical bodily resurrection of Jesus (1 Cor 15:12–20), which served as the "firstfruits" (aparche) or blueprint for believers. Christ's resurrected body was not a ghost or a dematerialized spirit, but a tangible, physical body capable of being touched and eating food (Luke 24:39–43), yet fully glorified and liberated from mortality.

Furthermore, Paul’s contrast earlier in the chapter between the "natural body" (soma psychikon) and the "spiritual body" (soma pneumatikon) in verse 44 reinforces physical continuity. In Greek, a soma always denotes a physical body; calling it pneumatikon does not mean "made of spirit" (intangible energy), but rather "empowered/animated by the Holy Spirit"—just as a "natural body" (soma psychikon) is animated by the natural soul, not literally made of soul-substance.

Therefore, when this mortal "puts on" immortality in verse 53, the underlying physical substrate (soma) is not discarded or replaced by an immaterial state; rather, the existing physical body is redeemed, transformed, and clothed with imperishable, heavenly life.

Israel has been redeemed many times as a nation and restored to the land, but always under the terms of the old covenant. Since this covenant no longer exists, there is no covenant existing to recover national Israel. The only existing covenant is the new covenant which only allows entrance on an individual basis.

That said, Romans speaks of a time when God will save large numbers of ethnic Jews after the fulness of the Gentiles is complete. But they will come into the kingdom the same way everyone who was ever saved enters: by grace through faith.

 

[Cameron143]

Hey, you were the one that said Jesus was currently residing inside of us and I confirmed it. Stop being a hypocrite. I never said that God/Jesus haven't ruled over the earth since its inception. Jesus came PHYSICALLY into the world since then and he will RETURN PHYSICALLY AGAIN. That's the only point I was making. Stop being so obtuse.

---

I'll translate: I can't refute your arguments so I'll impugn your character.

 

[Revelation1v8]

I'll translate: I can't refute your arguments so I'll impugn your character.

See how manipulative you are? I've already refuted your argument and then you just try to change the subject to make it appear as though I said something I never said. You're a real piece of work.

--

 

[Revelation1v8]

I'll translate: I can't refute your arguments so I'll impugn your character.

Here, Cameron143, this one is just for you. If I have to repost it 100 times, I guess I will so you can't keep trying to spin the conversation.

Jesus replaced the Mosaic Covenant because it was a temporal and conditional arrangement that Israel failed to keep, whereas the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants are sovereign, unconditional, and eternal. The New Testament explicitly identifies the Mosaic Law as obsolete and replaced, while affirming that the promises to Abraham and David find their ultimate fulfillment in Christ without being terminated.

The Mosaic Covenant is described as the "Old Covenant" that is obsolete and ready to vanish away because it was broken by Israel. Jesus instituted the New Covenant, which supersedes the Mosaic system of law and sacrifice.

• Hebrews 8:13: "In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."
• 2 Corinthians 3:11: "For if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with glory... will not the ministry of the Spirit have more glory?"
• Hebrews 7:18-19: "There is, then, a setting aside of a former commandment... for the law made nothing perfect, but a bringing in of a better hope does."
• Jeremiah 31:32: God states the New Covenant is not like the covenant He made with their fathers when He brought them out of Egypt (the Mosaic Covenant), "which they broke."

The Abrahamic Covenant is everlasting and unconditional. The Mosaic Law did not annul it but was a temporary addition (a "codicil") until Christ came. The New Covenant is essentially the fulfillment and extension of the Abrahamic promise to all nations.

• Galatians 3:17: "This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void."
• Genesis 17:7: "And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you... for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you."
• Hebrews 6:13-14: God swore by Himself to Abraham, promising to bless and multiply him, an oath that "cannot change, because it is impossible for God to lie."
• Galatians 3:29: "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise."

The Davidic Covenant guarantees an eternal throne for David’s lineage. Jesus, as the Messiah from David’s line, fulfills this promise by reigning forever, meaning the covenant is confirmed and perpetuated, not terminated.

• 2 Samuel 7:16: "And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever."
• Luke 1:32-33: "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High... and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end."
• Acts 2:30: "Being therefore a prophet and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne."
• Hebrews 1:8: Referring to the Son (Jesus), God says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever."

--

 

[Cameron143]

See how manipulative you are? I've already refuted your argument and then you just try to change the subject to make it appear as though I said something I never said. You're a real piece of work.

--

You haven't refuted anything. Like @cv5, you have merely become belligerent.

Grace and peace.

 

[Cameron143]

Here, Cameron143, this one is just for you. If I have to repost it 100 times, I guess I will so you can't keep trying to spin the conversation.

Jesus replaced the Mosaic Covenant because it was a temporal and conditional arrangement that Israel failed to keep, whereas the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants are sovereign, unconditional, and eternal. The New Testament explicitly identifies the Mosaic Law as obsolete and replaced, while affirming that the promises to Abraham and David find their ultimate fulfillment in Christ without being terminated.

The Mosaic Covenant is described as the "Old Covenant" that is obsolete and ready to vanish away because it was broken by Israel. Jesus instituted the New Covenant, which supersedes the Mosaic system of law and sacrifice.

• Hebrews 8:13: "In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."
• 2 Corinthians 3:11: "For if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with glory... will not the ministry of the Spirit have more glory?"
• Hebrews 7:18-19: "There is, then, a setting aside of a former commandment... for the law made nothing perfect, but a bringing in of a better hope does."
• Jeremiah 31:32: God states the New Covenant is not like the covenant He made with their fathers when He brought them out of Egypt (the Mosaic Covenant), "which they broke."

The Abrahamic Covenant is everlasting and unconditional. The Mosaic Law did not annul it but was a temporary addition (a "codicil") until Christ came. The New Covenant is essentially the fulfillment and extension of the Abrahamic promise to all nations.

• Galatians 3:17: "This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void."
• Genesis 17:7: "And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you... for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you."
• Hebrews 6:13-14: God swore by Himself to Abraham, promising to bless and multiply him, an oath that "cannot change, because it is impossible for God to lie."
• Galatians 3:29: "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise."

The Davidic Covenant guarantees an eternal throne for David’s lineage. Jesus, as the Messiah from David’s line, fulfills this promise by reigning forever, meaning the covenant is confirmed and perpetuated, not terminated.

• 2 Samuel 7:16: "And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever."
• Luke 1:32-33: "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High... and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end."
• Acts 2:30: "Being therefore a prophet and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne."
• Hebrews 1:8: Referring to the Son (Jesus), God says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever."

--

I have already explained how those covenants are all part of the covenant of grace...i.e. ...the new covenant.

Again, grace and peace.

 

[Aaron56]

The Abrahamic Covenant is everlasting and unconditional. The Mosaic Law did not annul it but was a temporary addition (a "codicil") until Christ came. The New Covenant is essentially the fulfillment and extension of the Abrahamic promise to all nations.

• Galatians 3:29: "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise."

Are there any heirs not according to promise?

Here's a hint:

"But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed."

 

[Revelation1v8]

Are there any heirs not according to promise?

Here's a hint:

"But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed."

What part did none of you understand when it said, "In Isaac your seed shall be called"?

Let's break that verse down for you:

What does Paul mean when he says, "They are not all Israel, which are of Israel"?​

Romans 9:6 is frequently misunderstood because people may assume Paul is saying that the Church has become Israel or that Jewish people who reject Jesus are no longer Israelites. Neither conclusion follows automatically from this verse.

Let's examine Paul's words.

Paul distinguishes between physical descent and God's sovereign choice.​

Paul begins by addressing a serious question: If God made promises to Israel, have those promises failed because so many Israelites have not accepted Jesus as their Messiah?

Notice the preceding verses.

Romans 9:1–5 (KJV) describes Paul's profound sorrow for his fellow Israelites. In verse 4, he identifies the Israelites as those to whom belong:

• The adoption.
• The glory.
• The covenants.
• The giving of the law.
• The service of God.
• The promises.

In verse 5, he speaks of the fathers and of Christ coming through Israel according to the flesh.

Then Paul writes: "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect." — Romans 9:6

In other words, Paul is saying that Israel's widespread unbelief does not mean God's promises have failed.
His argument concerns God's faithfulness to His promises, not the cancellation of Israel's identity or God's covenant commitments.

"They are not all Israel, which are of Israel."

This statement requires careful interpretation.

Paul is distinguishing between physical descent from Israel and participation in the line of promise through which God was carrying out His covenant purposes.

Consider the patriarchs.

God made promises to Abraham, but Abraham had more than one son.

Ishmael was Abraham's physical descendant, yet God specifically identified Isaac as the son through whom the promised line would continue.

Genesis 21:12 (KJV)

"For in Isaac shall thy seed be called."

Paul quotes this very promise in Romans 9:7.

The point is that physical descent from Abraham alone did not determine which son would carry the particular covenant promise God had given.

This distinction is essential: God's choice of Isaac over Ishmael did not mean Ishmael ceased to be Abraham's physical descendant. Rather, Isaac was the son through whom the covenant line would continue.

Likewise, the fact that some Israelites do not believe in Christ does not mean they cease to be Israelites by physical descent.

Paul is explaining the distinction between physical ancestry and God's purpose in fulfilling His promises.

What does "the children of the flesh" versus "the children of the promise" mean?​

Romans 9:8 states:

"They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

To understand this statement, we must look at the example Paul has just given.

Ishmael and Isaac

Abraham had a son named Ishmael through Hagar, Sarah's servant.

Later, God gave Abraham and Sarah the promised son, Isaac.

Genesis 17:18–21 (KJV)

Abraham asked God to let Ishmael live before Him. God responded by promising to bless Ishmael, make him fruitful, and multiply him.

But God also said: "But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year." — Genesis 17:21

Notice what this passage establishes.

• Ishmael was Abraham's physical son.
• God promised to bless Ishmael.
• God specifically established the covenant line through Isaac.
• Isaac's place in that covenant line rested on God's promise, not merely on physical descent.

Therefore, the expression "children of the flesh" in Romans 9:8 must be understood in the context of Paul's discussion about Abraham's descendants and God's choice of the promised line.

It would be a mistake to conclude that physical descent is meaningless throughout Scripture. God repeatedly identifies Israel by descent from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

It would also be a mistake to conclude that God must fulfill every promise to every descendant in precisely the same way.

God's sovereign choice of Isaac illustrates how He fulfills His promises according to His own purpose.

Paul is not saying that every physical descendant of Israel is excluded from God's salvation.​

This is an important distinction. Paul is discussing the relationship between God's promises, Israel's ancestry, and God's sovereign purpose. He is not teaching that Jewish people cannot be saved or that God has permanently rejected the Jewish people.

In fact, Paul directly addresses that question later in Romans.

Romans 11:1 (KJV)

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin."

Paul's answer is emphatic: God has not cast away His people.

He identifies himself as an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, and a member of the tribe of Benjamin.

This is crucial when interpreting Romans 9.

We should not take Paul's statement in Romans 9:6 and use it to reach a conclusion that Paul explicitly rejects in Romans 11:1.

(Continued)​

 

[Revelation1v8]

What part did none of you understand when it said, "In Isaac your seed shall be called"?

Let's break that verse down for you:

What does Paul mean when he says, "They are not all Israel, which are of Israel"?​

Romans 9:6 is frequently misunderstood because people may assume Paul is saying that the Church has become Israel or that Jewish people who reject Jesus are no longer Israelites. Neither conclusion follows automatically from this verse.

Let's examine Paul's words.

Paul distinguishes between physical descent and God's sovereign choice.​

Paul begins by addressing a serious question: If God made promises to Israel, have those promises failed because so many Israelites have not accepted Jesus as their Messiah?

Notice the preceding verses.

Romans 9:1–5 (KJV) describes Paul's profound sorrow for his fellow Israelites. In verse 4, he identifies the Israelites as those to whom belong:

• The adoption.
• The glory.
• The covenants.
• The giving of the law.
• The service of God.
• The promises.

In verse 5, he speaks of the fathers and of Christ coming through Israel according to the flesh.

Then Paul writes: "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect." — Romans 9:6

In other words, Paul is saying that Israel's widespread unbelief does not mean God's promises have failed.
His argument concerns God's faithfulness to His promises, not the cancellation of Israel's identity or God's covenant commitments.

"They are not all Israel, which are of Israel."

This statement requires careful interpretation.

Paul is distinguishing between physical descent from Israel and participation in the line of promise through which God was carrying out His covenant purposes.

Consider the patriarchs.

God made promises to Abraham, but Abraham had more than one son.

Ishmael was Abraham's physical descendant, yet God specifically identified Isaac as the son through whom the promised line would continue.

Genesis 21:12 (KJV)

"For in Isaac shall thy seed be called."

Paul quotes this very promise in Romans 9:7.

The point is that physical descent from Abraham alone did not determine which son would carry the particular covenant promise God had given.

This distinction is essential: God's choice of Isaac over Ishmael did not mean Ishmael ceased to be Abraham's physical descendant. Rather, Isaac was the son through whom the covenant line would continue.

Likewise, the fact that some Israelites do not believe in Christ does not mean they cease to be Israelites by physical descent.

Paul is explaining the distinction between physical ancestry and God's purpose in fulfilling His promises.

What does "the children of the flesh" versus "the children of the promise" mean?​

Romans 9:8 states:

"They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

To understand this statement, we must look at the example Paul has just given.

Ishmael and Isaac

Abraham had a son named Ishmael through Hagar, Sarah's servant.

Later, God gave Abraham and Sarah the promised son, Isaac.

Genesis 17:18–21 (KJV)

Abraham asked God to let Ishmael live before Him. God responded by promising to bless Ishmael, make him fruitful, and multiply him.

But God also said: "But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year." — Genesis 17:21

Notice what this passage establishes.

• Ishmael was Abraham's physical son.
• God promised to bless Ishmael.
• God specifically established the covenant line through Isaac.
• Isaac's place in that covenant line rested on God's promise, not merely on physical descent.

Therefore, the expression "children of the flesh" in Romans 9:8 must be understood in the context of Paul's discussion about Abraham's descendants and God's choice of the promised line.

It would be a mistake to conclude that physical descent is meaningless throughout Scripture. God repeatedly identifies Israel by descent from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

It would also be a mistake to conclude that God must fulfill every promise to every descendant in precisely the same way.

God's sovereign choice of Isaac illustrates how He fulfills His promises according to His own purpose.

Paul is not saying that every physical descendant of Israel is excluded from God's salvation.​

This is an important distinction. Paul is discussing the relationship between God's promises, Israel's ancestry, and God's sovereign purpose. He is not teaching that Jewish people cannot be saved or that God has permanently rejected the Jewish people.

In fact, Paul directly addresses that question later in Romans.

Romans 11:1 (KJV)

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin."

Paul's answer is emphatic: God has not cast away His people.

He identifies himself as an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, and a member of the tribe of Benjamin.

This is crucial when interpreting Romans 9.

We should not take Paul's statement in Romans 9:6 and use it to reach a conclusion that Paul explicitly rejects in Romans 11:1.

(Continued)​

How does Romans 9 fit with God's promises to national Israel?​

If someone uses Romans 9:6–8 to argue that God has permanently rejected national Israel or transferred all of Israel's covenant promises to the Church, several other passages must be considered.

God promised that Israel would remain a nation before Him.​

Jeremiah 31:35–37 (KJV) - In these verses, God speaks of the sun, moon, stars, and the fixed order of creation. He then declares that Israel's descendants would cease to be a nation before Him only if those established conditions could be measured or the foundations of the heavens searched out.

The passage concludes with God's declaration that He would not cast off all the seed of Israel for everything they had done.

This is a powerful statement of God's faithfulness to Israel.

The context is important because Jeremiah 31 also contains the promise of the New Covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31 (KJV)
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:"

Notice that God explicitly identifies the houses of Israel and Judah as the recipients of this promise.

Christians understand Jesus to be the mediator of the New Covenant, as Hebrews 8–10 explains. However, that does not require us to conclude that God has abandoned His promises concerning Israel.

Paul says Israel's present unbelief does not mean God has abandoned His people.

Romans 11:25–29 (KJV) - Paul explains that Israel has experienced a partial hardening until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

He then declares:

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:" — Romans 11:26

Paul continues:

"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." — Romans 11:29

The phrase "without repentance" in the KJV conveys that God's gifts and calling are irrevocable.

Christians disagree about the precise meaning and scope of "all Israel" in Romans 11:26. However, Paul's argument clearly warns against assuming that Israel's present unbelief means God has permanently abandoned His people.

This passage is understood as pointing to a future work of God in bringing Israel to salvation.

God distinguishes Israel from the Gentiles.​

Romans 11:17–18 (KJV) describes Gentile believers as branches of a wild olive tree grafted into a cultivated olive tree.

Paul warns Gentile believers:

"Boast not against the branches." — Romans 11:18

Why?

Because the Gentile believers do not support the root; the root supports them.

Paul's imagery emphasizes that Gentile believers receive spiritual blessings through a history of promises that did not originate with them.

In verses 23–24, Paul also speaks of the possibility of natural branches being grafted back into their own olive tree.

This imagery is consistent with Paul's declaration that God has not cast away His people.
It does not mean that every Jewish person is automatically saved, nor does it mean Gentile believers have no place in God's purposes. Rather, Paul warns Gentiles against pride and teaches that God remains able to restore unbelieving Israelites to faith.

Does "not all Israel" mean that the Church is now Israel?

Romans 9:6–8, by itself, does not establish that the Church has replaced national Israel.

To make that claim, someone would need to demonstrate from the wider context of Scripture that Paul intended to redefine Israel in that way.

The distinction between physical ancestry and salvation is real. But that distinction must not be confused with the claim that God has erased Israel's national identity or abandoned His covenant promises.

There is also an important difference between saying that not every physical descendant of Abraham inherits the same covenant role and saying that physical descent from Israel no longer matters in God's prophetic purposes.

Those are two different claims, and Romans 9:6–8 does not make them equivalent.

==

​

 

[Revelation1v8]

How does Romans 9 fit with God's promises to national Israel?​

If someone uses Romans 9:6–8 to argue that God has permanently rejected national Israel or transferred all of Israel's covenant promises to the Church, several other passages must be considered.

God promised that Israel would remain a nation before Him.​

Jeremiah 31:35–37 (KJV) - In these verses, God speaks of the sun, moon, stars, and the fixed order of creation. He then declares that Israel's descendants would cease to be a nation before Him only if those established conditions could be measured or the foundations of the heavens searched out.

The passage concludes with God's declaration that He would not cast off all the seed of Israel for everything they had done.

This is a powerful statement of God's faithfulness to Israel.

The context is important because Jeremiah 31 also contains the promise of the New Covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31 (KJV)
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:"

Notice that God explicitly identifies the houses of Israel and Judah as the recipients of this promise.

Christians understand Jesus to be the mediator of the New Covenant, as Hebrews 8–10 explains. However, that does not require us to conclude that God has abandoned His promises concerning Israel.

Paul says Israel's present unbelief does not mean God has abandoned His people.

Romans 11:25–29 (KJV) - Paul explains that Israel has experienced a partial hardening until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

He then declares:

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:" — Romans 11:26

Paul continues:

"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." — Romans 11:29

The phrase "without repentance" in the KJV conveys that God's gifts and calling are irrevocable.

Christians disagree about the precise meaning and scope of "all Israel" in Romans 11:26. However, Paul's argument clearly warns against assuming that Israel's present unbelief means God has permanently abandoned His people.

This passage is understood as pointing to a future work of God in bringing Israel to salvation.

God distinguishes Israel from the Gentiles.​

Romans 11:17–18 (KJV) describes Gentile believers as branches of a wild olive tree grafted into a cultivated olive tree.

Paul warns Gentile believers:

"Boast not against the branches." — Romans 11:18

Why?

Because the Gentile believers do not support the root; the root supports them.

Paul's imagery emphasizes that Gentile believers receive spiritual blessings through a history of promises that did not originate with them.

In verses 23–24, Paul also speaks of the possibility of natural branches being grafted back into their own olive tree.

This imagery is consistent with Paul's declaration that God has not cast away His people.
It does not mean that every Jewish person is automatically saved, nor does it mean Gentile believers have no place in God's purposes. Rather, Paul warns Gentiles against pride and teaches that God remains able to restore unbelieving Israelites to faith.

Does "not all Israel" mean that the Church is now Israel?

Romans 9:6–8, by itself, does not establish that the Church has replaced national Israel.

To make that claim, someone would need to demonstrate from the wider context of Scripture that Paul intended to redefine Israel in that way.

The distinction between physical ancestry and salvation is real. But that distinction must not be confused with the claim that God has erased Israel's national identity or abandoned His covenant promises.

There is also an important difference between saying that not every physical descendant of Abraham inherits the same covenant role and saying that physical descent from Israel no longer matters in God's prophetic purposes.

Those are two different claims, and Romans 9:6–8 does not make them equivalent.

==

​

What is the relationship between Romans 9 and Romans 11?​

The two chapters should be read together.

Romans 9 explains that God's promises have not failed, even though not every physical descendant of Abraham belongs to the particular line of promise or responds to God in faith.

Romans 10 addresses Israel's unbelief and emphasizes the need for faith and salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 11 then addresses the question of whether God has rejected Israel and answers emphatically that He has not.

Paul's argument develops as follows:

1. Romans 9:6: God's word has not failed.
2. Romans 9:7–13: God's covenant purposes have always involved His sovereign choice, illustrated through Isaac and Jacob.
3. Romans 10:1–4: Paul expresses his desire for Israel's salvation and explains the relationship between Israel, righteousness, and Christ.
4. Romans 11:1: God has not cast away His people.
5. Romans 11:11: Israel's trespass is not presented as an irrevocable end to God's dealings with them.
6. Romans 11:25–29: Paul describes Israel's partial hardening, the salvation of all Israel, and God's irrevocable gifts and calling.

This progression matters. If we interpret Romans 9 in a way that contradicts Paul's explicit statement in Romans 11:1, we should reconsider our interpretation.

The bottom line

Romans 9:6–8 is about the faithfulness of God's word and His sovereign fulfillment of His promises. It is not, by itself, a declaration that national Israel has been replaced by the Church.

The immediate example is Isaac, who was chosen to carry the covenant promise despite Abraham having other physical descendants. Paul then develops his argument across Romans 9–11, ultimately declaring that God has not cast away His people and that His gifts and calling are irrevocable.

The most important interpretive principle is this: Do not use Romans 9 to cancel what Paul explicitly teaches in Romans 11. Read both chapters together, preserve the distinctions Paul makes, and let Scripture interpret Scripture.

We must interpret Romans 9 alongside Romans 11, where Paul explicitly asks, "Hath God cast away his people?" and answers, "God forbid" (Romans 11:1). He then explains that Israel has experienced a partial hardening and declares that God's gifts and calling are irrevocable (Romans 11:25–29). Therefore, Romans 9 teaches us that God fulfills His promises according to His sovereign purpose; it does not give us grounds to conclude that God has permanently abandoned Israel or nullified His promises concerning the nation. We must allow Paul's entire argument, especially his explicit statements in Romans 11, to inform our interpretation of Romans 9.
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[cv5]

See how manipulative you are? I've already refuted your argument and then you just try to change the subject to make it appear as though I said something I never said. You're a real piece of work.

--

Yup. His typical gameplay:
-he shows up after being soundly refuted at an earlier point in the thread
-trots out the same worn-out panoply of insipid banal vacuous vague one-liners one after another
-is soundly refuted one after another
-trots out insipid banal vacuous one-liner denials
-is called out as a fraud having denied everything and proven nothing
-takes a vacation for a while
-wash rinse and repeat

FYI, as you well know, the early Church was plagued by those who were trotting out vague and woefully erroneous notions of the Person and nature of Christ salvation and eschatology.

And then they demanded that their vague and woefully erroneous notions should be considered on par with the sound doctrine established by the legitimate scholars and wise men and scribes.

And then they became heretics and started their own "religion" to suit their error.