More about Israel.

[Revelation1v8]

Nope - Jesus was clear the Kingdom is over and the gentiles are called.

On whta basis does the wedding banquet relate to the end times?



Is Abraham circumcision covenant ‘forever’?


Gen 17:13-14 –

13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. **My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting [owlam / root olam] covenant.**

14 And the **uncircumcised** man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath **broken my covenant.**

The covenant of circumcision was not considered "forever" in its physical form because it was a temporary, preparatory ordinance fulfilled and superseded by the New Covenant through Jesus Christ. While Genesis 17 describes it as an "everlasting covenant," biblical theology interprets this as perpetual in purpose rather than indefinite in practice, meaning it remained in force until the arrival of the Messiah.

Reasons for Its Cessation​

• Fulfillment in Christ: The physical act served as a shadow of the good things to come, pointing toward the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus. With His death and resurrection, the ceremonial laws of Moses, including circumcision, were fulfilled and no longer required for salvation (Colossians 2:11-12).
• Inclusion of Gentiles: The physical mark was designed to set apart Israel as a distinct nation to preserve the lineage of the Messiah. Once Jesus was born and the Gospel extended to all nations, the requirement for physical separation was removed, allowing Gentiles to join the covenant through faith rather than physical rites.
• Spiritual vs. Physical: The New Testament emphasizes the "circumcision of the heart" over physical flesh. Christians are considered spiritually circumcised through the removal of the "body of the flesh" in Christ, rendering the physical procedure obsolete for those under the New Covenant. A remnant of Israel will be brought into the New Covenant.
• Definition of "Everlasting": The Hebrew term for "everlasting" can mean open-ended or valid for a specific age rather than literally without end. Just as the animal sacrificial system was called eternal but ended with Christ’s sacrifice, circumcision remained binding until its purpose was accomplished.

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[Needevidence]

The covenant of circumcision was not considered "forever" in its physical form because it was a temporary, preparatory ordinance fulfilled and superseded by the New Covenant through Jesus Christ. While Genesis 17 describes it as an "everlasting covenant," biblical theology interprets this as perpetual in purpose rather than indefinite in practice, meaning it remained in force until the arrival of the Messiah.

Reasons for Its Cessation​

• Fulfillment in Christ: The physical act served as a shadow of the good things to come, pointing toward the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus. With His death and resurrection, the ceremonial laws of Moses, including circumcision, were fulfilled and no longer required for salvation (Colossians 2:11-12).
• Inclusion of Gentiles: The physical mark was designed to set apart Israel as a distinct nation to preserve the lineage of the Messiah. Once Jesus was born and the Gospel extended to all nations, the requirement for physical separation was removed, allowing Gentiles to join the covenant through faith rather than physical rites.
• Spiritual vs. Physical: The New Testament emphasizes the "circumcision of the heart" over physical flesh. Christians are considered spiritually circumcised through the removal of the "body of the flesh" in Christ, rendering the physical procedure obsolete for those under the New Covenant. A remnant of Israel will be brought into the New Covenant.
• Definition of "Everlasting": The Hebrew term for "everlasting" can mean open-ended or valid for a specific age rather than literally without end. Just as the animal sacrificial system was called eternal but ended with Christ’s sacrifice, circumcision remained binding until its purpose was accomplished.

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So now its all NT / Jesus - but when convenient OT still valid. Did Jesus ever say the old covenants or the Israelites still chosen?

Did Jesus say circumcise is no longer required?

What about the wedding banquet relating to the end times, based on what?

Is it just the lineage of Judah or all Israelites saved?

 

[Revelation1v8]

So now its all NT / Jesus - but when convenient OT still valid. Did Jesus ever say the old covenants or the Israelites still chosen?

Did Jesus say circumcise is no longer required?

What about the wedding banquet relating to the end times, based on what?

Is it just the lineage of Judah or all Israelites saved?

Remember that verse in Ecclesiastes 3:1?

Here's the order in which it all plays out in the Bible:

Where the Phrase Lives in the Bible​

• Ecclesiastes 3:1 (NASB): "There is an appointed time for everything, and a time for every event under heaven." — This is the primary locus. The Hebrew word is זְמָן (zeman), meaning "appointed time."
• Ecclesiastes 3:11 reinforces it: "He has made everything beautiful in its time."
• Acts 1:7 (Jesus speaking): "It is not for you to know the times or seasons that the Father has set by his own authority."
• Galatians 4:4: "But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth his Son…"
• Daniel 2:21: "He changes times and seasons; he removes kings and sets up kings."

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Phase 1 — The Appointed Time for the Jews​

• Genesis 12:1–3 — God's covenant with Abraham: a land, a seed, and a blessing to all nations through him.
• Exodus 12:2 — The first month appointed; the Passover as the founding moed (appointed time).
• Leviticus 23:1–44 — The seven moedim (appointed feasts) given to Israel: Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits, Pentecost, Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles.
• 2 Samuel 7:12–16 — The Davidic covenant: an eternal throne and kingdom.
• Isaiah 2:2–4 — "In the last days the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established… and the law shall go forth from Zion."
• Jeremiah 31:31–34 — A new covenant written on the hearts of Israel and Judah.
• Daniel 9:24–27 — "Seventy weeks" (490 years) decided upon your people and your holy city — a time specifically cut off for the Jews.

Phase 2 — The Appointed Time for the Gentiles​

• Daniel 2:31–45 — Nebuchadnezzar's image: four successive Gentile kingdoms (Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome) that will stand until the Son of Man shatters them.
• Daniel 7:1–14 — Four beasts representing Gentile empires; dominion passes to the "Son of Man."
• Daniel 8:9–14, 23–25 — The "little horn" and the "time, times, and half a time" of Gentile oppression.
• Ezekiel 30:3 — "A time of doom for the nations" — the kairos of the Gentiles in connection with the Day of the LORD.
• Luke 21:24 (Jesus): "Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." — The explicit statement that a distinct Gentile era follows Israel's scattering.
• Romans 11:25 (Paul): "A partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." — The spiritual dimension: the Gospel goes to the Gentiles while Israel is in a "partial blindness."
• Revelation 11:2 — "The outer court… has been given to the Gentiles, and they will trample the holy city for 42 months." — A final, intensified Gentile trampling before the end.

Phase 3 — The Appointed Time for the Jews Again​

• Romans 11:26–27: "And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: 'The Deliverer will come from Zion, and will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.'" — The explicit promise that the Jewish phase resumes.
• Isaiah 66:7–8: "Before she goes into labor, she gives birth… Can one bear in a single day? So I will cause all nations to be born at once." — Israel's "birth in a day" (widely linked to 1948).
• Ezekiel 36:24–28 — God will gather Israel from the nations, give them a new heart, and put His Spirit within them.
• Ezekiel 37:21–22 — The two sticks: Judah and Ephraim joined into one nation, one king.
• Ezekiel 38–39 — The battle of Gog and Magog: Israel in the land, under siege, then supernaturally delivered.
• Hosea 3:5: "Afterward the sons of Israel will return and seek the LORD their God… in the last days."
• Zechariah 12:10: "They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and mourn… as the mourning for the only son." — National repentance at the Second Coming.
• Zechariah 14:4–11 — The LORD's feet stand on the Mount of Olives; Jerusalem is inhabited and safe.
• Joel 3:1–2: "In those days, when I bring back the captives of Judah, I will gather all nations… to the Valley of Jehoshaphat."
  

The Combination — Jew and Gentile United

• Ephesians 2:14–16 — Christ "has broken down the dividing wall… that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, thus making peace."
• Romans 11:17–24 — The olive tree: Gentile branches grafted into the root of Israel.
• Revelation 7:9 — "A great multitude from every nation, tribe, people, and language, standing before the throne."
• Revelation 21:24 — "The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it." — The eternal state with no Jew/Gentile division.

Summary of the Three-Phase Sequence

• Jews (OT covenant → Messiah's first coming) → Gentiles (church age / times of the Gentiles) → Jews again (national restoration, Ezekiel 38, Zechariah 12) → Combined (one body, one kingdom, eternal state).

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[Revelation1v8]

Is it just the lineage of Judah or all Israelites saved?

The seed of Abraham through the lines of Isaac & Jacob:

That's why God/Jesus called Himself the God of them:

Exodus 3:6 - Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Matthew 22:32 - I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mark 12:26 - And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

Luke 20:37 - Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Acts 7:32 - Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.

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[Needevidence]

The seed of Abraham through the lines of Isaac & Jacob:

That's why God/Jesus called Himself the God of them:

Exodus 3:6 - Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Matthew 22:32 - I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mark 12:26 - And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

Luke 20:37 - Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Acts 7:32 - Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.

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Noted


I could make numerous comments however that will become protracted and detracts from the point we are discussing.

You didn’t respond to the points raised rather you threw loads of passages.

Yes, everything has its appointed time which God alone will decide.



Abraham conditions of the promise (circumcise) and other covenants can be made obsolete yet others you say have not been made obsolete.

Did Jesus ever say the old covenants or the Israelites still chosen?

wedding banquet relates to the end times, based on what? Isn’t brining the Gentiles therefore no longer Israelites?


Is it just the lineage of Judah or all Israelites saved?

How do you understand Jesus saying the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to another?

All promsie in Christ?

 

[Revelation1v8]

Noted


I could make numerous comments however that will become protracted and detracts from the point we are discussing.

You didn’t respond to the points raised rather you threw loads of passages.

Yes, everything has its appointed time which God alone will decide.



Abraham conditions of the promise (circumcise) and other covenants can be made obsolete yet others you say have not been made obsolete.

Did Jesus ever say the old covenants or the Israelites still chosen?

wedding banquet relates to the end times, based on what? Isn’t brining the Gentiles therefore no longer Israelites?


Is it just the lineage of Judah or all Israelites saved?

How do you understand Jesus saying the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to another?

All promsie in Christ?

I don't know what more you want. I've already posted in this thread that the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants were still in effect and were unconditional. The Bible shows you that Jesus will return to Jerusalem and fulfill His promises to those covenants. I've already shown you how when Jesus returns He will clear out the land of its idols and perform a Sheep & Goat Judgement against the nations for how they treated Israel. Zechariah 13:1 says that God will pour out His Spirit on the people in the land and for those who accept it, the 1/3 remnant from Zechariah 13:8-9 will remain in the land for those promises to be fulfilled. The Bible shows that the remnant in the land are descendants of Jacob in Isaiah.

Isaiah 10:21 prophesies that "A remnant will return, a remnant of Jacob will return to the Mighty God." This verse asserts that despite the vastness of Israel's population, only a small, faithful portion will survive judgment and restore their relationship with God.

Key aspects of this prophecy include:

• Divine Preservation: The "remnant" represents the survivors of the house of Jacob who will no longer rely on foreign powers but will truly trust the LORD, the Holy One of Israel (Isaiah 10:20).
• Symbolic Name: The prophecy alludes to Shear-jashub, the name of Isaiah’s son, which literally means "a remnant shall return," serving as a living sign of God's promise to preserve a faithful core.
• Scope of Return: While the people of Israel may be numerous like the sand of the sea, only a remnant will return, highlighting that divine discipline is not final destruction but a means to restore a faithful group.
• Theological Significance: This return is directed "to the Mighty God" (or Messiah), emphasizing that the remnant’s restoration is based on God’s covenant faithfulness to their forefathers rather than their own merit.

The Bible shows that this is a double fulfillment prophecy:

• Historical Fulfillment: The verse primarily addresses God’s people who had endured the "threshing" of judgment, assuring them that the prophecy of Babylon’s fall—fulfilled historically by the Medo-Persian Empire—was a faithful declaration from the Lord of hosts.
• Eschatological Application: The language of Babylon’s fall is repeated in Revelation 14:8 and 18:2, linking Isaiah’s oracle to a future end-times judgment of spiritual and commercial Babylon.
• Dual Purpose: While the immediate context comforted exiles or those facing Assyrian threats, the text functions as a type for the ultimate destruction of wicked systems, indicating that the event has both past fulfillment and future prophetic relevance.

So, what the Bible ultimately shows is that God/Jesus has called people out of the line of Jacob in order to fulfill His Abrahamic and Davidic Covenant promises to Israel. It's not everyone, but God/Jesus did call people out of Israel, from the line of Jacob, just like He did from the Gentile nations.


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[Needevidence]

I don't know what more you want. I've already posted in this thread that the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants were still in effect and were unconditional. The Bible shows you that Jesus will return to Jerusalem and fulfill His promises to those covenants. I've already shown you how when Jesus returns He will clear out the land of its idols and perform a Sheep & Goat Judgement against the nations for how they treated Israel. Zechariah 13:1 says that God will pour out His Spirit on the people in the land and for those who accept it, the 1/3 remnant from Zechariah 13:8-9 will remain in the land for those promises to be fulfilled. The Bible shows that the remnant in the land are descendants of Jacob in Isaiah.

Isaiah 10:21 prophesies that "A remnant will return, a remnant of Jacob will return to the Mighty God." This verse asserts that despite the vastness of Israel's population, only a small, faithful portion will survive judgment and restore their relationship with God.

Key aspects of this prophecy include:

• Divine Preservation: The "remnant" represents the survivors of the house of Jacob who will no longer rely on foreign powers but will truly trust the LORD, the Holy One of Israel (Isaiah 10:20).
• Symbolic Name: The prophecy alludes to Shear-jashub, the name of Isaiah’s son, which literally means "a remnant shall return," serving as a living sign of God's promise to preserve a faithful core.
• Scope of Return: While the people of Israel may be numerous like the sand of the sea, only a remnant will return, highlighting that divine discipline is not final destruction but a means to restore a faithful group.
• Theological Significance: This return is directed "to the Mighty God" (or Messiah), emphasizing that the remnant’s restoration is based on God’s covenant faithfulness to their forefathers rather than their own merit.

The Bible shows that this is a double fulfillment prophecy:

• Historical Fulfillment: The verse primarily addresses God’s people who had endured the "threshing" of judgment, assuring them that the prophecy of Babylon’s fall—fulfilled historically by the Medo-Persian Empire—was a faithful declaration from the Lord of hosts.
• Eschatological Application: The language of Babylon’s fall is repeated in Revelation 14:8 and 18:2, linking Isaiah’s oracle to a future end-times judgment of spiritual and commercial Babylon.
• Dual Purpose: While the immediate context comforted exiles or those facing Assyrian threats, the text functions as a type for the ultimate destruction of wicked systems, indicating that the event has both past fulfillment and future prophetic relevance.

So, what the Bible ultimately shows is that God/Jesus has called people out of the line of Jacob in order to fulfill His Abrahamic and Davidic Covenant promises to Israel. It's not everyone, but God/Jesus did call people out of Israel, from the line of Jacob, just like He did from the Gentile nations.


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What I was looking for was a specific reply to the points.


You say Abraham and David Covenants were still in effect and were unconditional – But you earlier said that Circumcise is no longer required even though it was Gods condition – so it can’t be unconditional, can it?

Remnant – the disciples and Jesus followers were all Jews and when he comes back whoever follows him will be saved regardless what race or colour etc… they are – not sure whats the relevance.

Babylon’s fall— agreed as were the Persians, Greeks, Romans - not sure what point you are making or how it’s a dual prophecy, based on what?

You ignored the points, if you respond to each one rather than through loads of passages would help manage the discussion. Because the questions are based on what you said and I’m trying to work out on what basis.

Did Jesus ever say the old covenants or the Israelites still chosen?

wedding banquet relates to the end times, based on what? Isn’t brining the Gentiles therefore no longer Israelites?

Is it just the lineage of Judah or all Israelites saved?

How do you understand Jesus saying the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to another?

All promise in Christ?

 

[Revelation1v8]

You say Abraham and David Covenants were still in effect and were unconditional – But you earlier said that Circumcise is no longer required even though it was Gods condition – so it can’t be unconditional, can it?

Circumcision is considered part of the Mosaic Covenant, although it was originally instituted under the Abrahamic Covenant. While the sign of the Mosaic Covenant is typically identified as the Sabbath (Exodus 31:13–17), circumcision served as the individual sign of participation in the Mosaic Covenant, while the Sabbath served as the corporate sign.

Because the Abrahamic Covenant was integrated into the Mosaic arrangement, circumcision acquired additional national and legal significance under the Law of Moses. Key theological points include:

• Incorporation into the Law: Circumcision was repeated and reinforced in the Mosaic Law (e.g., Leviticus 12:3), making it a required mark of Israel’s covenant identity and a prerequisite for participating in the Passover.
• Paul’s Association: The Apostle Paul associated circumcision with the Mosaic Law because the Judaizers insisted on circumcision as a means of keeping the Law of Moses for salvation. Paul argued that requiring circumcision meant accepting the obligation to keep the whole Mosaic Law (Galatians 5:3).
• Distinction from Abrahamic Origin: While circumcision originated with Abraham as a sign of the covenant of grace, its application under Moses made it a marker of submission to the Mosaic legal system. Consequently, under the New Covenant, physical circumcision is replaced by spiritual circumcision (circumcision of the heart) and baptism.

From the Jewish standpoint, the Torah (Mosaic Law) remains in full force. Orthodox and Conservative Jews observe it to the extent possible. The only parts that cannot currently be practiced are those requiring the Temple in Jerusalem (animal sacrifices, certain priestly functions, some agricultural laws tied to the Land of Israel). The covenant is understood as eternal and unbroken on God's part, even though Israel repeatedly violated it.

Jesus said:

Matthew 5:17–18

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

AND

Luke 24:44 - And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

This, however, is NOT a requirement for Gentiles. Our FAITH is our circumcision. Plus, it really boils down to faith in God. Even Abraham was said to be saved by his faith in God and his righteousness even before he became circumcised.

I hope that helps to answer your question. I'll try to address your points one at a time in separate posts.

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[Revelation1v8]

Remnant – the disciples and Jesus followers were all Jews and when he comes back whoever follows him will be saved regardless what race or colour etc… they are – not sure whats the relevance.

That is true, however, the Bible shows us clearly from Isaiah 10:21 that a remnant of Israel that's from the line of Jacob will also be included in that number. God/Jesus returns to earth to wipe out the idols from the land and pour out His Spirit on the House of Israel and Judah one last time in Zechariah 13:1, but it looks like only 1/3 of them from Zechariah 13:8-9 will accept that invitation.

I hope that again, helps to answer your question.

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[Revelation1v8]

Babylon’s fall— agreed as were the Persians, Greeks, Romans - not sure what point you are making or how it’s a dual prophecy, based on what?

The Babylon in the book of Revelation is on a much larger scale. It represents a combination of both failed governments and a false religious system that effects the entire earth. When Jesus returns, He will be putting an end to all of it and set up a 1,000 year period (Revelation 20) on earth (otherwise referred to as the Millennial Kingdom) to set everything straight and allow the surviving people and nations to start over again knowing the Lord. The details of what happens during this Millennial Kingdom period are outlined throughout the Old Testament.

Babylon in the Book of Revelation represents a global system of false religion, economic exploitation, and political oppression that opposes God. It is described as a "world empire of false religion" that seduces nations and spreads idolatry across the entire earth, originating from the rebellion at Babel.

Key aspects of this symbolism include:

• Global False Religion: Babylon is identified as the "Mother of Harlots," representing a collective body of apostate religions that lead people away from true worship and deceive the nations.
• Economic and Political Corruption: The symbol encompasses a unified system of greed, commercial exploitation, and violent persecution of believers, often centered in a powerful political entity.
• Universal Influence: This corrupt system extends its reach to all peoples, crowds, and nations, creating a worldwide culture of rebellion that ultimately faces divine judgment and destruction.

Once the Millennial Kingdom period is over and Satan is released from the Abyss (Revelation 20) to TRY to deceive the nations one last time, Jesus will immediately shut Him down with fire, judge him, and throw him into the Lake of Fire.

After that, Jesus will also throw Hell and Death into the Lake of Fire too, meaning that it's time for the Kingdom of Heaven (Revelation 21) to come in and there will be no more human life, death, or reproducing. Everyone is judged and placed in their eternal residences in their eternal states of existence.

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[Revelation1v8]

wedding banquet relates to the end times, based on what? Isn’t brining the Gentiles therefore no longer Israelites?

I may be wrong on the timing of who/when will be at the wedding banquet, but this is what the Bible says and the last sentence I bolded shows how I see it.

the Bible assigns distinct but complementary preparation roles to both the Father and the Son, and even to the bride herself.

The Father prepares:

• Chooses the bride. "He chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him" (Eph 1:4). In Jewish custom, it was the father of the groom who selected the bride and arranged the feast (cf. Matt 22:1–4, where "the king" sends servants to invite guests).
• Draws people to Christ. "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him" (John 6:44).
• Sanctifies. "May the God of peace himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess 5:23). Also 1 Peter 1:2: "chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit."
• Prepares the city/bride. "I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband" (Rev 21:2). The agent of preparation here is explicitly "from God" (the Father).

The Son (Jesus) prepares:

• Purchases and sanctifies the bride. "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish" (Eph 5:25–27). This is the most detailed passage on bridal preparation in the NT — and the subject doing the work is Christ himself.
• Preparing a place. "In my Father's house are many rooms… I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to myself" (John 14:2–3). In first-century Jewish custom, the groom returned to his father's house to build a room for the bride before coming to fetch her.
• Prays for the bride's sanctification. "Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth" (John 17:17).

The bride also participates:

• "The marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure — for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints" (Rev 19:7–8). The phrase "made herself ready" (Greek hetoiasen heauten) indicates active cooperation on her part.

So, when we compare Revelation 19:7-8 where the bride is referred to as the saints, but Revelation 21:2 refers to the bride as the New Jerusalem/Heaven, then I'm assuming that the marriage supper takes place for ALL in the new city/Heaven after the current heaven and earth have already passed away from Revelation 21:1.


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[Revelation1v8]

@Needevidence , I'm going to expand on this further based on what I have explained previously about how all of the prophetic books in the Bible jump around from time period to another, making it very difficult to determine what exactly happens when. Here's another way to compare ALL of the scriptures to come to a conclusion...

Here's what Revelation 19:17-21 says:

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Now, the question is whether or not the supper actually takes place right after Jesus returns and cuts down the nations during the battle of Armageddon or is it reserved for after the battle of Gog & Magog in Revelation 20? If it's after the FINAL battle of Gog & Magog in Revelation 20, then it's after the 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom period, and after all are judged, and we see the Kingdom of Heaven coming down from God when all is finished on the earth and it has passed away in Revelation 21.

I hope that made sense to you.

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[Revelation1v8]

@Needevidence , I'm going to expand on this further based on what I have explained previously about how all of the prophetic books in the Bible jump around from time period to another, making it very difficult to determine what exactly happens when. Here's another way to compare ALL of the scriptures to come to a conclusion...

Here's what Revelation 19:17-21 says:

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Now, the question is whether or not the supper actually takes place right after Jesus returns and cuts down the nations during the battle of Armageddon or is it reserved for after the battle of Gog & Magog in Revelation 20? If it's after the FINAL battle of Gog & Magog in Revelation 20, then it's after the 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom period, and after all are judged, and we see the Kingdom of Heaven coming down from God when all is finished on the earth and it has passed away in Revelation 21.

I hope that made sense to you.

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@Needevidence, I'm correcting this post to elaborate more based on how I view it...

Correction: I'm changing my original post. IF the supper actually takes place after the Beast and the False Prophet are thrown into the Lake of Fire, then yes, the marriage supper will take place in Heaven after the battle of Armageddon and after Jesus cuts down the nations who came up against Jerusalem before He sets up His Millennial Kingdom on the earth.

But, it could take place after Satan is thrown into the Lake of Fire in Revelation 20 after the FINAL battle of Gog & Magog. That is when the last of humanity will be wiped out and Ezekiel 37 repeats again what Revelation 19:17 says. Let me show you what I mean....

Revelation 19:17-21 is a direct literary allusion to and reworking of Ezekiel 39:17-20, utilizing the same imagery of a "great supper" where birds feast on the flesh of fallen warriors to depict divine judgment.

• Shared Imagery: Both passages describe an angel or prophet summoning "every kind of bird" to a sacrificial feast on the mountains to eat the flesh of kings, commanders, and mighty men.
• Theological Function: This parallel serves as a typology of judgment, confirming the finality of God's victory over the forces of rebellion (Gog and Magog in Ezekiel; the Beast and earthly armies in Revelation).
• Contextual Placement: In Revelation, this vision follows the return of Christ and precedes the millennium, whereas in Ezekiel, it concludes the prophecy against Gog’s invasion of Israel, with both texts using the carnage to magnify God’s glory among the nations.
  
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[ThomasMatthew]

Replacement theology ran straight into the gas chambers of the Holocaust. Martin Luther was one of the biggest instigators of this. Hitler kept his sermons with him, the Nazi's used his sermons to justify what they had done. Both the Catholics and the Protestants repented of this heresy after the Holocaust. But it continues to raise it's ugly head, the devil makes sure of it.

Holohoax.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Holohoax.

Are you denying the Holocaust?!

 

[ThomasMatthew]

Are you denying the Holocaust?!

Absolutely.
Never Happened.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Absolutely.
Never Happened.

Well, that comment is . That a Christian would deny the Holocaust is beyond me. It did happen, it's stunningly stupid to deny it. End of convo.

 

[ThomasMatthew]

Well, that comment is . That a Christian would deny the Holocaust is beyond me. It did happen, it's stunningly stupid to deny it. End of convo.

Really. I've done quite the deep dive into this topic. Have you?
You are entitled to your opinion.
And I won't call you stupid for accepting the narrative you were given.
I will suggest however, that it is incredibly foolish to trust worldly sources, when the world itself is run by the father of lies.

 

[Revelation1v8]

Really. I've done quite the deep dive into this topic. Have you?
You are entitled to your opinion.
And I won't call you stupid for accepting the narrative you were given.
I will suggest however, that it is incredibly foolish to trust worldly sources, when the world itself is run by the father of lies.

Conspiracy theorists who run that deep typically have an underlying disorder that allows them to believe that level of conspiracy. While there are true conspiracies out there, anything that rises to the level of what you believe, is just crazy town. Maybe you're not old enough to know people who actually survived it, but it would be in your best interest to search out their individual stories to balance out your view a little.

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[ThereRoseaLamb]

Really. I've done quite the deep dive into this topic. Have you?
You are entitled to your opinion.
And I won't call you stupid for accepting the narrative you were given.
I will suggest however, that it is incredibly foolish to trust worldly sources, when the world itself is run by the father of lies.

Have you ever read the book or seen the movie The Hiding Place?