Replacement theology? Yes or No.

[God-fearing]

In other words in both your eschatology and mine the everlasting land and circumcision covenants with Abraham have spiritual fulfillment not earthly.
You have added your 1000 year millennial kingdom, but 1000 years is not eternity so you have no grounds for objection to a heavenly fulfillment to these everlasting promises.

If I may just as a suggestion.....in the old testament it is believed by scholars that because of the evidence that jews had no number beyond 1000, they considered 1000 as forever. Notice that when the scriptures declare 1000 yrs or tens of thousands or even thousands of thousands. Always in terms of thousands which is believed to be their highest number.
Food for thought.

 

[Revelation1v8]

In other words in both your eschatology and mine the everlasting land and circumcision covenants with Abraham have spiritual fulfillment not earthly.
You have added your 1000 year millennial kingdom, but 1000 years is not eternity so you have no grounds for objection to a heavenly fulfillment to these everlasting promises.

There's an earthly fulfillment of 1,000 years before the Kingdom of Heaven comes down that's eternal. Covenants aren't needed in the Kingdom of Heaven.

--

 

[OMC]

This is more a personal question for you.
Do you accept that the land restoration events of Deuteronomy 30 apply to the Christ and the Gospel as Paul teaches, or would you prefer to attach your name to a fruitless mass murder campaign in the Middle East without command or warrant from God?

My concern is that once we frame the debate in those terms, we stop discussing what Moses, the prophets, Paul, and the New Testament actually say and start forcing people into positions they may not hold.
I gladly attach my name to Christ and the gospel.
Beyond that, every prophetic conclusion still has to be demonstrated from Scripture.

 

[Beekeeper]

I gladly attach my name to Christ and the gospel.

Then this is a good discovery for you brother, because Paul attaches the Deuteronomy 30 restoration to Christ and the Gospel.

My concern is that once we frame the debate in those terms, we stop discussing what Moses, the prophets, Paul, and the New Testament actually say and start forcing people into positions they may not hold.

Scripture is discerned through the spirit of God, and God is good.
A tree is known by its fruit.
I would be looking for the character of God in the interpretations I accept too.

 

[Revelation1v8]

Then this is a good discovery for you brother, because Paul attaches the Deuteronomy 30 restoration to Christ and the Gospel.

Scripture is discerned through the spirit of God, and God is good.
A tree is known by its fruit.
I would be looking for the character of God in the interpretations I accept too.

How exactly do you define "the character of God"? His character shows that He keeps His promises to ALL.

AND

God/Jesus has endless mercy that you should try to emulate.

---

 

[OMC]

Then this is a good discovery for you brother, because Paul attaches the Deuteronomy 30 restoration to Christ and the Gospel.

Scripture is discerned through the spirit of God, and God is good.
A tree is known by its fruit.
I would be looking for the character of God in the interpretations I accept too.

On that much, I think we agree: Christ is the center, the gospel is the fulfillment, and any interpretation that loses sight of God's character revealed in Christ should be carefully reexamined.

 

[Revelation1v8]

On that much, I think we agree: Christ is the center, the gospel is the fulfillment, and any interpretation that loses sight of God's character revealed in Christ should be carefully reexamined.

Does that mean you believe Jesus when He says:

Luke 24:44 - And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

--

 

[Revelation1v8]

@Beekeeper & @OMC

I think you both need to take a second look at:

Romans 11:30-32

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


Romans 11:30–32 teaches that Gentile believers received mercy due to Jewish disobedience, establishing a reciprocal dynamic where Jews may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to Gentiles. This passage is interpreted by many theologians as a call for Gentile Christians to treat Israel with compassion and respect, rather than arrogance, recognizing that both groups are equally dependent on divine grace.

The text emphasizes that God’s mercy is not exclusive to one group; since God has "consigned all to disobedience" so He might have mercy on all, believers are urged to avoid contempt for the Jewish people. Historical commentaries suggest that the mercy of the Gentiles—manifested as pity and the sharing of the gospel—may serve as the instrumental means for Israel’s future restoration and salvation.

Ultimately, the passage argues that salvation is by mercy alone, not merit, requiring Gentile Christians to maintain a posture of humility and brotherly love toward Israel, knowing that the same God who loves the patriarchs remains faithful to His promises.

---

 

[Beekeeper]

If I may just as a suggestion.....in the old testament it is believed by scholars that because of the evidence that jews had no number beyond 1000, they considered 1000 as forever. Notice that when the scriptures declare 1000 yrs or tens of thousands or even thousands of thousands. Always in terms of thousands which is believed to be their highest number.
Food for thought.

That thought is interesting to me to.
"A thousand pardons" is a Middle Eastern expression.
Arabs say "a thousand" a lot.
The Bible says it too.
I think God owns more than the cattle on a thousand hills, and more than a thousand years would be like a day to God too.
I consider how it might apply to the view that Christ's kingdom is present and heavenly and not future and earthly.
I don't think the thousand years in Rev. 20 means eternity though, or how could it say "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" (v.5).

 

[God-fearing]

That thought is interesting to me to.
"A thousand pardons" is a Middle Eastern expression.
Arabs say "a thousand" a lot.
The Bible says it too.
I think God owns more than the cattle on a thousand hills, and more than a thousand years would be like a day to God too.
I consider how it might apply to the view that Christ's kingdom is present and heavenly and not future and earthly.
I don't think the thousand years in Rev. 20 means eternity though, or how could it say "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" (v.5).

True but to the Jewish mind at that time a thousand was forever. It's hard to believe but according to your post here it's not

 

[God-fearing]

That thought is interesting to me to.
"A thousand pardons" is a Middle Eastern expression.
Arabs say "a thousand" a lot.
The Bible says it too.
I think God owns more than the cattle on a thousand hills, and more than a thousand years would be like a day to God too.
I consider how it might apply to the view that Christ's kingdom is present and heavenly and not future and earthly.
I don't think the thousand years in Rev. 20 means eternity though, or how could it say "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" (v.5).

Also scripture tells us the old things are passed away. For it to pass away it has to materialize.

 

[God-fearing]

As a Christian how do you see this scripture to be?
As a curse or As a unwitting plea?

Mat 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

 

[Beekeeper]

True but to the Jewish mind at that time a thousand was forever. It's hard to believe but according to your post here it's not

The problem in Rev 20:5 with rendering "a thousand years" as "forever" is that the reading would be:
"the rest of the dead lived not again until forever was finished"
I consider that "a thousand years" in this context
is a long finite period of time, but we have not been told exactly how long.

Also scripture tells us the old things are passed away. For it to pass away it has to materialize.

Yes, my view is that we are already in the thousand years.
Christ's reign is from heaven in the passage, that is why John saw the souls of them that were beheaded reigning and living with Him (v.4).
Satan has not been bound with duct tape, but he has been bound by Christ's victory over him on the cross.
A bit like being in a legally binding contract.
It does not mean you can do nothing at all.

 

[Beekeeper]

As a Christian how do you see this scripture to be?
As a curse or As a unwitting plea?

Mat 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

It would mean both, depending on whether your father is Abraham or the Devil.

 

[God-fearing]

The problem in Rev 20:5 with rendering "a thousand years" as "forever" is that the reading would be:
"the rest of the dead lived not again until forever was finished"
I consider that "a thousand years" in this context
is a long finite period of time, but we have not been told exactly how long.

Yes, my view is that we are already in the thousand years.
Christ's reign is from heaven in the passage, that is why John saw the souls of them that were beheaded reigning and living with Him (v.4).
Satan has not been bound with duct tape, but he has been bound by Christ's victory over him on the cross.
A bit like being in a legally binding contract.
It does not mean you can do nothing at all.

If Satan is bound now why does evil increase? Talking about evil.
Might want to wait a bit for heads to roll if Islam has their way.
That thousand years are of peace perhaps you need to write a letter or two to Russia Israel, Ukraine ect and remind them.
Christ is the mediator between God and man the high priest of Melchezidek he sits at the right hand of the Father until his enemies are his footstool. The scrolls are not opened yet or we would not be having this conversation.
Jesus is Lord yes always has been no doubt. He is the same yesterday today and forever. Amen. God in the flesh.
But we live in a time frame, a appointed time frame. The scriptures refer to it as birthing pangs.
We know and are blessed to read the end. We're not there yet..soon and very soon.

 

[Beekeeper]

If Satan is bound now why does evil increase? Talking about evil.
Might want to wait a bit for heads to roll if Islam has their way.
That thousand years are of peace perhaps you need to write a letter or two to Russia Israel, Ukraine ect and remind them.
Christ is the mediator between God and man the high priest of Melchezidek he sits at the right hand of the Father until his enemies are his footstool. The scrolls are not opened yet or we would not be having this conversation.
Jesus is Lord yes always has been no doubt. He is the same yesterday today and forever. Amen. God in the flesh.
But we live in a time frame, a appointed time frame. The scriptures refer to it as birthing pangs.
We know and are blessed to read the end. We're not there yet..soon and very soon.

Satan is bound so that he cannot prevent salvation through faith in Christ yet he has not lost his ability to do evil.

I am not sure where you got the idea of 1000 years of peace, but you can share that with me if you don't mind.
There is a difference between peace between man and God and the absence of war in the world.
I only see that war will continue right up until the new heaven and earth is created.
Christ will have subdued His enemies then.

Regarding the scrolls I think they were opened on Jerusalem.
That does not mean that they do not have ongoing significance for us though.

 

[Beekeeper]

There's an earthly fulfillment of 1,000 years before the Kingdom of Heaven comes down that's eternal. Covenants aren't needed in the Kingdom of Heaven.

--

Of course I know that you think that.
My point is that whether there is an earthly 1000 years or not, Genesis 17:8 and Genesis 17:13 both have temporal earthly significance and everlasting heavenly significance.
Both of us believe that.
We differ only in how we think it will unfold.

 

[Beekeeper]

How exactly do you define "the character of God"? His character shows that He keeps His promises to ALL.

AND

God/Jesus has endless mercy that you should try to emulate.

---

Merciful people forgive repentant sinners.
Repent for something and I will try.

 

[Beekeeper]

AGAIN, you missed what God himself said in Joshua 13:6:

Joshua 13:6 - All the inhabitants of the hill country from Lebanon unto Misrephothmaim, and all the Sidonians, them will I drive out from before the children of Israel: only divide thou it by lot unto the Israelites for an inheritance, as I have commanded thee.

1. The explicit promise in Joshua 13:6 itself. God uses the emphatic first person: "I will drive them out from before the children of Israel." The "I" is not a vague reference to eventual human success — it is God staking His own name on the act.

2. The standing covenant from Deuteronomy. Moses had already told Israel years earlier:

• "The LORD your God will drive out those nations before you, LITTLE BY LITTLE" (Deut 7:22)
• "The LORD your God will deliver them over to you, throwing them into great confusion until they are destroyed" (Deut 7:23)
• "It is not because of your righteousness... but because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD your God drives them out from before you, and to keep the oath the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" (Deut 9:6)

When God/Jesus returns, he will fulfill the promise of the REMAINING LAND HIMSELF.

--

The land promise to national Israel, contrary to what you have been told, was absolutely fulfilled under Joshua.
The people were not all driven out, but the land was conquered,
and that was the promise.

Joshua 11:15 As the Lord commanded Moses his servant, so did Moses command Joshua, and so did Joshua; HE LEFT NOTHING UNDONE of all that the Lord commanded Moses.

Joshua 11:23 So Joshua TOOK THE WHOLE LAND, according to all that the Lord said unto Moses; and Joshua gave it for an inheritance unto Israel according to their divisions by their tribes. And the land rested from war.

The land covenant that was given to Abraham was fulfilled under David and Solomon:

2 Samuel 8:3 David smote also Hadadezer, the son of Rehob, king of Zobah, as he went to recover his border at the river Euphrates.

1 kings 4:21 And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the river unto the land of the Philistines, and unto the border of Egypt: they brought presents, and served Solomon all the days of his life.

Here is what Nehemiah had to say about it all.

Nehemiah 9:7 Thou art the Lord the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;
8 And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast PERFORMED THY WORDS; for thou art righteous:

Nehemiah 9:23 Their children also multipliedst thou as the stars of heaven, and broughtest them into the land, concerning which thou hadst promised to their fathers, that they should go in to possess it.
24 So the children went in and possessed the land, and thou subduedst before them the inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites, and gavest them into their hands, with their kings, and the people of the land, that they might do with them as they would.