Was sex Adam and Eve part of the curse

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Your argument confuses not knowing the exact wording of the Corinthians' original letter with being unable to identify the issues Paul addressed. In 1 Corinthians 7:1, Paul explicitly refers to their letter, and the rest of the chapter discusses sexual relations, celibacy, marriage, separation, mixed marriages, and remarriage. Although we cannot reconstruct every detail with certainty, these textual clues provide substantial evidence. Historical inference is not the same as baseless speculation.
I am not confusing anything, Lovette ... here is your question to which I replied (bold mine):

I understand Paul was responding to specific matters the Corinthians had written about (1 Cor. 7:1). But what, specifically, were those matters?​

my reply:

We don't know.​

That you now want to change "what, specifically, were those matters?" to generally "the issues Paul addressed" supports my assertion that you engage in fallacy for reasons only God knows and of which He is fully aware.



Proverbs 18:22 affirms the goodness of marriage; it does not establish that everyone must marry.
Please provide the post submitted by me wherein I (or anyone else) claimed "everyone must marry".



Paul explicitly recognizes different gifts (1 Corinthians 7:7), recommends singleness (vv. 8, 26), and says marriage is not a sin (v. 28). He distinguishes what is permissible from what may be preferable. You cannot emphasize the goodness of marriage while ignoring Paul's equally explicit endorsement of singleness.
1 Corinthians 7:6-7 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.

What Paul spoke "by permission, and not of commandment" was that Paul "would that all men were even as" he (unmarried).

You have indicated your "proper gift of God" is to remain single "after this manner" ... i.e. what Paul preferred, which was "not of commandment".

for others, their "proper gift of God" is to marry "after that manner" ... i.e. what God commanded all the way back in Genesis 1 and confirmed in Genesis 9.

I am not "ignoring" anything. I have already fully acknowledged that single or married is the "proper gift of God" ... have you done the same? ... have you allowed that being married is "proper gift of God" for some?




Second Corinthians 6:14 and Exodus 34:12–16 concern avoiding spiritually compromising relationships; they do not command believers who are already married to unbelievers to divorce them. That is precisely why Paul addresses existing mixed marriages separately in 1 Corinthians 7:12–16. Instructions about entering a relationship do not automatically determine how an existing relationship should be handled.
already discussed



Furthermore, Paul's preference for preserving marriage is not an absolute command to preserve it at all costs. In verses 10–11, he acknowledges the possibility of separation, and in verse 15, he instructs believers to let an unbelieving spouse depart. Whatever the implications for remarriage, Paul does not require believers to prevent abandonment at all costs.
As indicated previously ... it wasn't just Paul's preference ... Jesus also instructed not to "put away" the spouse. And Jesus made clear that Moses "suffered you to put away your wives" because of "the hardness of your hearts" (Matthew 19:3-8).

And in verses 10-11, Paul's instruction is for the wife who departs to "remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife" ... clearly, Paul's emphasis was to have the marital relationship restored.

In verse 15, Paul tells the believing spouse that if the unbelieving spouse departs, let them depart. At that point, the believer is released. In a marriage, each spouse vows a vow ... sometimes the vow works to the hurt of the one who vowed but he or she still honors the vow out of reverence and respect to God before Whom the vow was made. The verse continues ... "God hath called us to peace" ... the abandoned spouse is not required to live in continuous conflict chasing after the departing spouse ... nor is the abandoned spouse required to remain in a relationship that no longer exists because the other spouse has departed.




Your own qualification that Jesus and Paul prohibited divorce “in the situations about which they were discussing” acknowledges that context matters. We cannot know every detail of the Corinthians' original letter, but we can identify the subjects Paul addresses and reasonably infer the concerns behind them. If you dispute a particular inference, demonstrate why the textual evidence does not support it. Simply labeling all reconstruction “pure supposition” does not refute the evidence.
We know from the text what Jesus was dealing with because Scripture tells us:

Matthew 19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?

We do not know "the context" of the letter the Corinthian church wrote to Paul, even though we have the advice and counsel of Paul in response. For you to continue to claim you know because of what Paul wrote is speculation on your part.


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reneweddaybyday said:
sigh ... your personal restrictions on the marital relationship hinder you from full understanding of Scripture concerning the matter. You are free to believe that there are no true godly marriages in our day and time because God has not done with any man alive today what God did with Adam in taking his rib, making a woman for him, and bringing her to him. That line of reasoning utterly fails as has been shown to you over many posts submitted in this thread.​
It is the word of God, not my personal restrictions. For the record it is YOUR restrictions by insisting that the marriage institution is ordained by God, in that case a couple must marry in God's way, by God's design, right? And that inevitably leads to Gen. 2:18-22
God's design does not "inevitably lead to Gen. 2:18-22".

I have provided the verses (Genesis 2:24, Matthew 19:5, Mark 10:6-8, Ephesians 5:31) ... you're the one who insists that in order for a marriage to be godly, God must do as He did for Adam as shown in Genesis 2:18-22.




and a practical interpretation is found in Gen. 24, I didn't make any of these up. If "making a woman out of a rib" sounds ridiculous to you, then drop your santimony, accept modern marriages as the result of modern dating as WORLDLY.
Under your rendering ... the only spouse a person can marry would be a brother, a sister, a half-brother, a half-sister, a cousin. You've got quite a bit of incest going on there.



reneweddaybyday said:
If the only thing your church is teaching is "a marriage counselling session and the wellbeing of the nether region", you might want to consider going to a church that focuses on the Lord Jesus Christ ... just sayin'​

Lovette said:
Well you might wanna consider what the congregation come to the church for. I do come for the Lord, but many don't, they come for the exact purpose of marriage counselling, and thus it became the church's focus. Supply and demand.​

reneweddaybyday said:
Also, how do you know what is in the heart of others so that you can claim with complete (or any) certainty that "many don't" come for the Lord?​
​
Have you ever considered that the congregation at the church you attend is comprised of believers who are in various stages of their walk in the Lord? We all start out as "babes in Christ" and mature in the Lord Jesus Christ to the point where we are able to digest strong meat.​
​
Have you ever considered praying during the church service? Pray for the pastor who is teaching the Word of God ... pray that those in attendance receive the Word of God taught by the pastor. You can pray while listening to the pastor. Prayer is so beneficial in the body of Christ.​
Look, "marriage counselling and the wellbeing of the nether region" are important issues, these are pressing challenges in the modern age, I don't blame either the pastor or the congregation for that. The problem is prescribing marriage as a magic fix and shaming the singles for these societal ills, in other words, the IDOLATRY of marriage, that somehow your salvation is found in marriage, instead of blood of Christ, even if you meet your partner and get married in ungodly ways.
Who in this thread has insisted that "marriage is a magic fix" ... who in this thread is "shaming the singles for these societal ills" ... who in this thread has insisted that "salvation is found in marriage, instead of the blood of Christ"?

You're weaving a tapestry in your mind out of nothing ... no one has said anything close to what you claim.




How a couple got married in the first place if not for dating or hookup? I suggested arranged marriage, you're against that also, so what is it?
I have no problem with marriage. My issue is with your misinterpretation of Scripture when it comes to the marital relationship.

And what you "suggested" is that an "arranged marriage" as revealed in Genesis 24 is the only "godly marriage". If your "godly marriage" was followed, you've got incestuous marital relationships.




You continue to talk out of both sides of your mouth. On the one hand, you claim that arranged marriages are a "medieval" practice and on the other hand you claim that if a marriage is not arranged, the marriage is not godly.​
​
Medieval or not, it's according to the word of God. Medieval kings and queens sent their emissaries to acquire partners for their kids, following Abraham's model in Gen. 24. It is you who keep slapping on me "God's established marriage" while refusing his design for marriage in Gen. 2:18-22.​

fyi ... I do not "refuse" what is written in Genesis 2:18-24 ... what I reject is your absurd notion that in order for a marriage to be a godly marriage, God must do as you insist (i.e. take a rib from a man, make a woman, bring the woman to him). That is you adding an absurd requirement to marriage.​
The absurdity is all yours. Again, I've shown you the bible's own practical interpretation of that in Gen. 24. "Flesh of my flesh, bone of my bone" is God's design, not mine.
Prior to God making the help meet for Adam, there was no companion for Adam:

Genesis 2:19-20

19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field;
but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

God making Eve from Adam was a one-time event. That you require God to do the same for every other human being in order for you to recognize the godly design for marriage is just another example of your ongoing rebellion.




and please note Genesis 11:29 And Abram and Nahor took them wives: the name of Abram's wife was Sarai; and the name of Nahor's wife, Milcah, the daughter of Haran, the father of Milcah, and the father of Iscah. No record of Terah bringing Sarah to Abraham ... does that mean Abraham's marriage was not a godly marriage because of another of your absurd notions that parents must bring the wife to the husband?​
See, another example of lying by omission.
no "lying by omission" by me ... all I did was expose your ridiculous notion that in order for a marriage to be "godly" the marriage must be "arranged" ... wife must be "presented" ... but you are "lying by omission" because you omit God causing sleep in order to take a rib and make a woman to bring to the man.



Sarah was Abraham's half sister of the same father. Do you seriously need a record of Terah bringing Sarah to Abraham as a half sibling, probably when they were still young?
The point which flew over your head was that you keep insisting that the marriage must be "arranged" ... the wife selected and then brought to the man.

However as pointed out to you in Genesis 11:29, both Abraham and Nahor "took them wives". No record of anyone having "presented" Sarah to Abraham ... no record of anyone having "presented" Milcah to Nahor.

Just admit it ... all your assertions fail when the light of Scripture reveals the absurdity of your claims.


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reneweddaybyday said:
Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 6:15-18 describes an act of sin/fornication ... you are calling a wife a harlot and you are equating sin/fornication with the intimacy of the undefiled marriage bed in your complete and utter rejection of Scripture concerning marriage.​
No, I was letting the bible interpret itself regarding the mechanism of "two becoming one flesh". Only a wife is a harlot if you have had premarital sex with her. The act is the same, the difference is whom you have the act with.
Not the same according to Scripture.

1 Corinthians 6:15-18 describes an act of sin/fornication.

you are calling a wife a harlot and you are equating sin/fornication with the intimacy of the undefiled marriage bed in your complete and utter rejection of Scripture concerning marriage.




If "two become one flesh" is limited to husband and wife in marriage, why was Paul quoting Gen. 2:24 when describing fornication with Harlot? How could one become one flesh with a harlot when they're not married?
The "one flesh" in the marriage relationship encompasses more than the casual "fornication with harlot".

As has already been explained to you, two becoming one in marriage relates to the whole existence between man and wife. The marriage relationship consists of a unity which encompasses the joint lives of husband and wife. In marriage, two lives unite together as one ... emotionally, intellectually, financially, spiritually, and in every other way. The husband and wife become one in purpose. They are so close that they function like one person, balancing each other's strengths and weaknesses so that both separately and together they fulfill their God-given calling.




I consider marriage as honorable as the couple. Do you consider a product honorable when the materials are defective? Do you consider a meal honorable when the ingredients are spoiled?
As "defective" as we are, Lovette, it is possible for the husband to worship and reverence God ... the wife to worship and reverence God ... husband be committed to his wife and wife be committed to her husband in honor of the covenant relationship both have entered into with each other according to a godly rendering of the marital relationship.

I realize this is too fantastic for you to even begin to comprehend with all the baggage you bring to the table concerning marriage, but it is truly a blessing from God to be married to a spouse who loves God with all his or her heart, soul, mind, and strength.




My whole point over the past month is simple - you want a marriage to be honorable and godly, get married in an honorable and godly way by arrangement, following the original design in Gen. 2:18-22 and the example in Gen. 24. If you call it "absurd" and stick to your own way, don't call it "honorable" or "godly". You can't have it both ways.
My whole point over the past month is not so simple – unknot all the knots and kinks you have tied in your abysmal view of marriage.

Your rendering of what constitutes an "honorable and godly" marriage falls outside the scope of Scripture. Please do not expose others to your fakery.


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In Gen 1:28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

This command was before the fall, yet they didn’t have sex until after the fall.
Who says they didn't have sex until after the fall ? Read Genesis Ch 3 V 16 very carefully . I think it may help to answer your question 😁 .
 
Who says they didn't have sex until after the fall ? Read Genesis Ch 3 V 16 very carefully . I think it may help to answer your question 😁 .
Not sure. But as a result of the curse, the woman got the worst of it - pain in childbirth, desire for (control over) the man, but he shall rule over her.

So the result has been the woman is cursed with a desire to control the man and to get out from under his rule.

The man’s curse was related to the ground, but God created him with a desire to pursue and (after the curse) sexual desire.

So, fast forward to today’s environment. Just about every male looks at porn on his phone and the wife knows about it. Many men have already committed infidelity, and the wife is finding out about it. In my estimation, this has been going on for awhile. Now these couples have either divorced, or some are trying to reconcile and be restored. Men are seeking deliverance from sexual addiction and women are attempting to forgive and work through restoration. This is where evidences of the curses are showing up.

Most of the couples mentioned are battling through consequences that have lead to sexless marriages for the most part. So that prompted me to look at what actually happened in the garden.
 
Well, the hymen would’ve been shedding of blood, which wouldn’t have happened till after the fall. The point was that even if they would’ve had sex before the fall, it wouldn’t have been cursed like after the fall.
There is nothing in the Bible that says sex is cursed. Nor can it be proven that no sex happened before the fall.

God told Adam and Eve to multiply, which is achieved by engaging in sex that results in pregnancy.

Sexual immorality is cursed, but not sex itself.
 
There is nothing in the Bible that says sex is cursed. Nor can it be proven that no sex happened before the fall.

God told Adam and Eve to multiply, which is achieved by engaging in sex that results in pregnancy.

Sexual immorality is cursed, but not sex itself.
True, sex in marriage is meant to be wonderful. But you’re also right about sexual immorality, which is what I mentioned. When dragged into a marriage, there are definite problems. It’s especially hard to get back on track after sexual immorality.
 
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nope ... not loaded and not irrelevant. The question is pertinent to the discussion. I have even given you the answer to the question. Why can you not just simply answer the question?
Because a question can be simple to ask and still be loaded with assumptions. Repeating it a dozen times doesn’t magically make those assumptions legitimate.

And no, telling me the answer you want to hear doesn’t mean you’ve answered the argument. It means you’ve announced your preferred conclusion and are demanding that I rubber-stamp it. That’s not a discussion; that’s a pop quiz where you wrote the answer key yourself.
Have you ever studied how the tabernacle reflects the Lord Jesus Christ?
Ah, the classic move: imply that your opponent hasn’t studied the Bible because they don’t accept your interpretation of it.

Yes, biblical typology is a legitimate subject. No, recognizing typology doesn’t require accepting every proposed application of it. The question isn’t whether the tabernacle points to Christ. The question is what conclusions can legitimately be drawn from that fact.

You’re confusing agreement with your interpretation for biblical literacy. They aren’t the same thing.
wrong. the term "face to face" is an idiom and it refers to the close personal relationship enjoyed between God and Moses. See Psalm 103:7 for further clarification. And if you still do not understand, I suggest you pray to God ... perhaps God will reveal the meaning to you.
Thank you for the unsolicited spiritual diagnosis. I was wondering when the discussion would progress from interpreting Scripture to questioning someone else’s relationship with God.

You’re right that “face to face” can describe a close personal relationship rather than literal face-to-face visibility. Numbers 12:6–8 itself contrasts ordinary visions and dreams with the distinctive way God spoke to Moses. Psalm 103:7 says God made His ways known to Moses and His acts to Israel. That’s relevant, but it doesn’t settle every question about the precise nature of Moses’ access to God.

So make your exegetical case. Explain what the passages establish and how they support your conclusion. “You don’t understand, so go pray” isn’t an argument. Prayer is not a substitute for explaining your interpretation, and invoking God doesn’t automatically make your reading correct.
Did you read Numbers 11 when I asked (more than a week ago) if you have ever read it?
If the argument is that the Holy Spirit was active before Pentecost, nobody needs to deny that. If the argument is that the Spirit’s activity and the believer’s access to God were identical in every respect before and after Christ’s ascension, then you need to establish that further claim.

You can’t simply point to the same Holy Spirit operating in different covenantal circumstances and conclude that every aspect of the experience was identical. Same Spirit does not automatically mean identical circumstances, ministry, or covenantal arrangement.

I’m beginning to suspect that the problem isn’t that Numbers 11 hasn’t been read. It’s that you expect one passage to settle more than it actually says.
I have already discussed this issue ... again more than a week ago.
The fact that the same Holy Spirit worked in both periods doesn’t mean that nothing changed with Christ’s coming, death, resurrection, and ascension. In fact, your own distinction between what was available before Christ’s ascension and what became available afterward acknowledges that there was a difference.

You can’t acknowledge a change in the availability of something and then act as though discussing the nature of that change is somehow dishonest.
again, I am not speaking of your "worldly, carnal marriage", notwithstanding your insistence to the contrary.
Then perhaps stop using language that makes it sound as though you’re dismissing ordinary human marriage whenever someone challenges your argument.

More importantly, what exactly distinguishes the marriage you’re talking about from the marriage you insist I’m talking about? If both refer to the same earthly institution, calling one spiritual and the other carnal doesn’t establish two different categories of marriage.

Of course, marriage can have spiritual significance. That’s not the point in dispute. The point is whether your interpretation of that significance establishes every claim you’re making about the institution.

You can’t escape criticism of your argument by inventing a distinction whenever the ordinary meaning of your words becomes inconvenient.
You again misunderstand ... not because God cannot reveal to you, but because you are rebellious in your continued rejection of truth concerning the marital relationship being a reflection of the "great mystery concerning Christ and the church" as revealed in Ephesians 5.
Nobody said Ephesians 5 is irrelevant today. That’s another straw man.

The real question is what the passage requires of Christians today and whether it supports the conclusions you’re attaching to it.

A biblical institution can have theological significance without being mandatory for every believer. Paul himself discusses marriage and singleness in 1 Corinthians 7, where he recognizes both as legitimate circumstances and even describes singleness as advantageous in certain respects.

So, yes, Ephesians 5 remains relevant. No, its relevance does not automatically mean that every Christian must marry, that marriage is the only legitimate expression of spiritual maturity, or that an unmarried Christian is somehow resisting God’s design.

You’ve established the relevance of the passage. You haven’t yet established all the conclusions you want to derive from it.

Those are different tasks.
My relationship with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is fully intact, Lovette. I abide in Him and my husband did so as well ... gasp even when we were married we were abiding in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Who claimed that being married makes someone incapable of abiding in Christ?

That’s not the question.

The fact that a married person can abide in Christ proves that marriage and a relationship with Christ are compatible. It doesn’t prove that marriage is necessary for abiding in Christ, that every Christian should marry, or that singleness somehow places someone outside God’s design.

Your personal experience is perfectly consistent with the legitimacy of Christian singleness.

Nobody needs to deny your relationship with Christ to argue that marriage is not a universal Christian obligation.

And the dramatic “gasp” adds precisely nothing to the argument. Married Christians can abide in Christ. Unmarried Christians can abide in Christ. What a shocking development.
You are completely rewriting Scripture to align with your erroneous dogma ... all in your effort to not acknowledge that the unity of husband and wife in marriage is a reflection of a deeper truth ... truth which you refuse to acknowledge and of which you are completely unaware due to your obstinate rebellion.
No, we haven’t entered the resurrection age in its fullness, and yes, people are still dying. Nobody is disputing either point.

But notice what follows from that: the fact that marriage belongs to the present age doesn’t establish that everyone must marry during the present age.

Your questions establish the temporal setting of Jesus’ statement. They don’t establish your claim about the obligations of every Christian.

You’re proving that we live in the age Jesus describes, not that every person must participate in every social institution characteristic of that age.

People still work, but not everyone must pursue the same occupation. People still have children, but not everyone must become a parent. People still marry, but that doesn’t mean everyone must marry.

A description of a general practice is not a universal command. This really shouldn’t be so difficult.
 
I have not yet attained "that age" ... nor have you attained "that age" ... and you not marrying does not equal you having attained "that age". At this point in "this age", we hope for that which we cannot see ... i.e. "that age".
Nobody said singleness means someone has already attained the resurrection age.

That’s a straw man.

The argument for remaining unmarried doesn’t require pretending that the resurrection has already happened. It requires recognizing that Scripture permits singleness in the present age.

In 1 Corinthians 7:7–8, Paul speaks positively about remaining unmarried. In verses 32–35, he explains how singleness can allow greater freedom to focus on the Lord’s affairs. And in verse 38, he explicitly contrasts marrying with remaining unmarried.

Paul is not telling unmarried Christians that they have somehow entered the resurrection age ahead of everyone else. He is explaining that marriage and singleness are both legitimate present circumstances, with different practical implications.

While I am a born again child of God and God is working within to perfect me ... I still live in "this world" where the children "marry, and are given in marriage" ... the same "this world" you live in where the children "marry, and are given in marriage" ... notwithstanding your aversion to marriage. You want to remain single? Have at it, but you should keep your unScriptural views of marriage to yourself.

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And there it is: after all the appeals to Scripture, typology, the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 5, and the resurrection, we finally arrive at the real conclusion: “I disagree with you, therefore you should shut up.”

Very convincing.

Yes, we live in the same world. Yes, marriage remains a legitimate institution. Yes, Christians can marry and faithfully serve the Lord. None of those facts is in dispute.

But the Bible also recognizes singleness. Jesus speaks of those who remain unmarried for the sake of the kingdom in Matthew 19:10–12, and Paul devotes a substantial portion of 1 Corinthians 7 to explaining the legitimacy and benefits of remaining unmarried.

So where, exactly, is the biblical command that every Christian must marry?

Not a passage describing marriage. Not a passage explaining its spiritual symbolism. Not a passage praising the relationship between Christ and the church.

A command that every Christian must marry.

If you can produce one, present it and explain it in context. If you can’t, then stop treating your preferred understanding of marriage as though it were a universal command from God.

And telling someone to keep their views to themselves is especially ironic when you’ve spent this much time insisting that your own interpretation must be accepted as biblical truth.

You’re entitled to argue for your position. You’re not entitled to declare every disagreement rebellion and then demand that everyone else stop speaking.
 
I am not confusing anything, Lovette ... here is your question to which I replied (bold mine):

I understand Paul was responding to specific matters the Corinthians had written about (1 Cor. 7:1). But what, specifically, were those matters?​

my reply:

We don't know.​

That you now want to change "what, specifically, were those matters?" to generally "the issues Paul addressed" supports my assertion that you engage in fallacy for reasons only God knows and of which He is fully aware.
No, I distinguished between two different questions. We don't know the exact contents of the Corinthians' letter because Paul didn't reproduce it in full. But we can identify the issues he addressed from his responses.

Not knowing every specific question they asked doesn't mean we know nothing about the subjects they raised. That's basic reading comprehension, not a logical fallacy.
Please provide the post submitted by me wherein I (or anyone else) claimed "everyone must marry".
Did I say you explicitly wrote those exact words? There's a difference between quoting you and examining the implications of your arguments.

If you're clarifying that you don't believe everyone must marry, fine. But then let's stick to what you actually claim and examine whether your biblical arguments support it. You can't demand precision from me while treating your own inferences as unquestionable.
1 Corinthians 7:6-7 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.

What Paul spoke "by permission, and not of commandment" was that Paul "would that all men were even as" he (unmarried).

You have indicated your "proper gift of God" is to remain single "after this manner" ... i.e. what Paul preferred, which was "not of commandment".

for others, their "proper gift of God" is to marry "after that manner" ... i.e. what God commanded all the way back in Genesis 1 and confirmed in Genesis 9.

I am not "ignoring" anything. I have already fully acknowledged that single or married is the "proper gift of God" ... have you done the same? ... have you allowed that being married is "proper gift of God" for some?
Yes. Marriage is a legitimate gift from God, just as singleness is. Neither status automatically makes someone more faithful or spiritually superior.

But acknowledging marriage as a gift doesn't mean claiming everyone ought to marry. I can affirm the goodness of marriage without turning it into a universal commandment.

That's the whole point of recognizing different gifts in 1 Corinthians 7.
already discussed
Let's read those passages carefully. Genesis 1:28 and 9:1 command humanity to be fruitful, multiply, and fill the earth. Neither passage explicitly commands every individual to marry.

A command addressed to humanity collectively doesn't automatically impose every aspect of fulfilling that command upon every individual.

Otherwise, how do you reconcile your interpretation with Jesus' teaching about those who remain unmarried for the sake of the kingdom in Matthew 19:10–12, or Paul's positive discussion of singleness in 1 Corinthians 7?

Marriage can be part of God's creation design without being a universal obligation for every believer. Prove the latter claim from the text instead of assuming it follows from the former.
As indicated previously ... it wasn't just Paul's preference ... Jesus also instructed not to "put away" the spouse. And Jesus made clear that Moses "suffered you to put away your wives" because of "the hardness of your hearts" (Matthew 19:3-8).

And in verses 10-11, Paul's instruction is for the wife who departs to "remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife" ... clearly, Paul's emphasis was to have the marital relationship restored.
Paul certainly encourages reconciliation in 1 Corinthians 7:10–11. But verse 15 also addresses the situation in which an unbelieving spouse departs, explaining that the believing spouse is not bound in such circumstances and that God has called us to peace.

Paul addresses different circumstances rather than imposing one simplistic rule upon every marriage.

More importantly, instructions about preserving an existing marriage don't establish that unmarried people must get married. Those are two entirely different questions.
In verse 15, Paul tells the believing spouse that if the unbelieving spouse departs, let them depart. At that point, the believer is released. In a marriage, each spouse vows a vow ... sometimes the vow works to the hurt of the one who vowed but he or she still honors the vow out of reverence and respect to God before Whom the vow was made. The verse continues ... "God hath called us to peace" ... the abandoned spouse is not required to live in continuous conflict chasing after the departing spouse ... nor is the abandoned spouse required to remain in a relationship that no longer exists because the other spouse has departed.
Marriage vows matter, but invoking their seriousness doesn't settle every question about separation, divorce, or abandonment. Your own argument acknowledges that Scripture addresses circumstances in which a spouse departs and the other isn't required to chase them indefinitely.

If we're going to discuss marital obligations, let's examine what Scripture actually says about each circumstance instead of treating one general principle as the answer to everything.

And none of this establishes that an unmarried person is obligated to make a marriage vow in the first place.
We know from the text what Jesus was dealing with because Scripture tells us:

Matthew 19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
Exactly! Matthew explicitly records the Pharisees' question about divorce.

But 1 Corinthians 7:1 merely refers to matters the Corinthians had written about. Paul doesn't reproduce their entire letter.

We can identify the topics he addresses from his responses without pretending to know the exact wording of every question that prompted them.

Different texts preserve different amounts of information. That's not speculation; it's recognizing what the text actually gives us.
We do not know "the context" of the letter the Corinthian church wrote to Paul, even though we have the advice and counsel of Paul in response. For you to continue to claim you know because of what Paul wrote is speculation on your part.

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Not every inference is speculation. If Paul discusses marriage, sexual relations, singleness, and separation, it's reasonable to conclude that these were among the issues he addressed.

What we cannot responsibly do is invent the exact wording of the Corinthians' letter or claim certainty about details Scripture doesn't reveal.

The same standard applies to your arguments. We shouldn't invent a universal marriage command that the passages don't explicitly establish, either.

You can't demand caution when interpreting 1 Corinthians while treating your own inferences from Genesis and Ephesians as indisputable facts.
 
God's design does not "inevitably lead to Gen. 2:18-22".

I have provided the verses (Genesis 2:24, Matthew 19:5, Mark 10:6-8, Ephesians 5:31) ... you're the one who insists that in order for a marriage to be godly, God must do as He did for Adam as shown in Genesis 2:18-22.
Ah, the good old “you disagree with me because of your personal hang-ups” argument. How convenient! That way, you don't have to demonstrate that my interpretation is wrong; you can just blame my supposed psychological baggage.

Have you considered that someone can disagree with your interpretation because they understand the text differently, rather than because they're personally incapable of understanding it?

If my interpretation is wrong, show where the text contradicts it. Diagnosing my personal restrictions isn't exegesis.
Under your rendering ... the only spouse a person can marry would be a brother, a sister, a half-brother, a half-sister, a cousin. You've got quite a bit of incest going on there.
Under Lev. 18's rendering however, incest is unlawful. It's your idea, your conclusion, not mine.
Who in this thread has insisted that "marriage is a magic fix" ... who in this thread is "shaming the singles for these societal ills" ... who in this thread has insisted that "salvation is found in marriage, instead of the blood of Christ"?

You're weaving a tapestry in your mind out of nothing ... no one has said anything close to what you claim.
I didn't claim to know what's in every churchgoer's heart. I was discussing the observable fact that some congregations become heavily focused on marriage counselling and marital wellbeing.

And your response? A lecture about spiritual immaturity, praying for the pastor, and people being babes in Christ.

Lovely advice, perhaps, but it doesn't address the point.

Yes, Christians mature at different rates. Yes, prayer is beneficial. Yes, people attend church for different reasons. None of those truths disproves the possibility that a church's teaching and activities can become disproportionately focused on marriage.

Telling someone to pray more doesn't magically resolve a criticism of the church's priorities.
I have no problem with marriage. My issue is with your misinterpretation of Scripture when it comes to the marital relationship.
Then demonstrate the misinterpretation.

You keep insisting that I reject God's design, but merely repeating that accusation doesn't establish what God's design requires.

Genesis 2 describes God creating Eve and bringing her to Adam. Genesis 2:24 establishes the one-flesh principle. Jesus refers to that principle in Matthew 19 and Mark 10, and Paul applies it in Ephesians 5.

The question is whether those passages require every subsequent marriage to follow the precise process described in Genesis 2. Where does Scripture explicitly establish that requirement?

You can't simply point to a biblical example and assume every detail of that example is a universal command.
And what you "suggested" is that an "arranged marriage" as revealed in Genesis 24 is the only "godly marriage". If your "godly marriage" was followed, you've got incestuous marital relationships.
Let's distinguish between two things: recognizing that arranged marriages appear in Scripture and claiming that every godly marriage must be arranged.

Genesis 24 describes Abraham's servant seeking a wife for Isaac. That is a biblical example of a marriage arranged with family involvement. But the existence of that example doesn't automatically establish that every marriage must follow the same process.

If you believe arranged marriage is the only biblical model, show where Scripture makes it mandatory. Otherwise, you're turning a narrative example into a universal rule without establishing that the text requires it.

And no, pointing out that medieval royalty also arranged marriages doesn't prove the practice is unbiblical. The historical label isn't the issue; the supposed universal requirement is.
Prior to God making the help meet for Adam, there was no companion for Adam:

Genesis 2:19-20

19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field;
but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

God making Eve from Adam was a one-time event. That you require God to do the same for every other human being in order for you to recognize the godly design for marriage is just another example of your ongoing rebellion.
That's a convenient caricature, but let's return to the actual issue.

Genesis 2:19–20 establishes that Adam had no suitable companion among the creatures God brought before him. God then created Eve and brought her to Adam.

Of course that particular act was unique. Nobody needs to argue that God must literally repeat the creation of Eve for every subsequent marriage.

But recognizing that the event was unique doesn't automatically settle which aspects of the account establish a continuing pattern for marriage.

Genesis 2:24 itself draws a broader principle from the creation account: a man leaves his parents, holds fast to his wife, and the two become one flesh. Jesus explicitly appeals to that principle.

So let's discuss what the creation account establishes rather than pretending that the only possible alternatives are literal repetition of Eve's creation or complete rejection of God's design.
​

no "lying by omission" by me ... all I did was expose your ridiculous notion that in order for a marriage to be "godly" the marriage must be "arranged" ... wife must be "presented" ... but you are "lying by omission" because you omit God causing sleep in order to take a rib and make a woman to bring to the man.
Genesis 11:29 tells us that Abram and Nahor took wives. It doesn't provide a detailed account of how either marriage was arranged or how the spouses were introduced.

And that's precisely the point: the absence of a recorded detail isn't proof that the detail never occurred.

But the reverse is equally important: the fact that Genesis 24 explicitly describes a servant arranging Isaac's marriage doesn't prove that every marriage must be arranged that way.

We shouldn't infer universal rules from silence in either direction.

Your argument about Abraham may challenge the claim that every marriage must involve a recorded parental presentation. But it doesn't establish that every marriage must follow your preferred interpretation of Genesis 2, either.
The point which flew over your head was that you keep insisting that the marriage must be "arranged" ... the wife selected and then brought to the man.

However as pointed out to you in Genesis 11:29, both Abraham and Nahor "took them wives". No record of anyone having "presented" Sarah to Abraham ... no record of anyone having "presented" Milcah to Nahor.
No, leaving out a detail in a particular argument isn't automatically lying by omission. It becomes deceptive when someone deliberately withholds relevant information to mislead.

The question is whether that detail is relevant to the specific claim under discussion.

If we're discussing whether God literally created a woman from a man's rib in every subsequent marriage, then yes, the uniqueness of Eve's creation is relevant. If we're discussing the one-flesh principle, Genesis 2:24 and its New Testament applications are directly relevant.

You don't get to label every selective discussion of a passage dishonest simply because it doesn't include every detail you want to emphasize.
 
reneweddaybyday said:
Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 6:15-18 describes an act of sin/fornication ... you are calling a wife a harlot and you are equating sin/fornication with the intimacy of the undefiled marriage bed in your complete and utter rejection of Scripture concerning marriage.​

Not the same according to Scripture.

1 Corinthians 6:15-18 describes an act of sin/fornication.

you are calling a wife a harlot and you are equating sin/fornication with the intimacy of the undefiled marriage bed in your complete and utter rejection of Scripture concerning marriage.
Where exactly did I call a wife a harlot? Please quote the words, not your interpretation of what you imagine I must believe.

First Corinthians 6:15–18 discusses sexual immorality and specifically uses the example of a man joining himself to a prostitute. Nobody needs to deny that Paul is condemning fornication.

But pointing out that Paul describes sexual union as making two people one flesh raises a legitimate question about the significance of that phrase. It doesn't mean that every instance of becoming “one flesh” is morally equivalent, nor does it mean that marriage and fornication are interchangeable.

If I've made a specific claim you believe equates a wife with a prostitute, quote it and explain why. Repeating the accusation three times doesn't make it true three times over.
The "one flesh" in the marriage relationship encompasses more than the casual "fornication with harlot".
Of course marriage encompasses more than sexual intimacy. A marriage involves a covenant, shared responsibilities, commitment, and a common life.

But notice something important: you're explaining what marriage encompasses, not proving that sexual union has no particular significance in the biblical meaning of “one flesh.”

In 1 Corinthians 6:16, Paul explicitly connects sexual union with becoming one flesh. In Genesis 2:24, the same expression appears in the context of a man leaving his parents, holding fast to his wife, and becoming one flesh with her.

The passages have different contexts and purposes, but that doesn't mean the shared expression is irrelevant to understanding either passage.

You can distinguish marital union from fornication without pretending that Paul's use of “one flesh” in the latter context has nothing to contribute to the discussion.
As has already been explained to you, two becoming one in marriage relates to the whole existence between man and wife. The marriage relationship consists of a unity which encompasses the joint lives of husband and wife. In marriage, two lives unite together as one ... emotionally, intellectually, financially, spiritually, and in every other way. The husband and wife become one in purpose. They are so close that they function like one person, balancing each other's strengths and weaknesses so that both separately and together they fulfill their God-given calling.
That's a reasonable description of the many dimensions of a healthy marriage. But let's not confuse a description of marriage's benefits with a complete definition of what makes a marriage biblical.

A couple might share finances, beliefs, goals, and emotional intimacy without being married. Conversely, a legally married couple might have a deeply troubled relationship despite having entered a marriage covenant.

So what makes marriage distinctive? Scripture discusses the marital bond, the one-flesh relationship, faithfulness, and covenantal responsibilities. Those elements deserve examination in their own right.

Listing all the wonderful ways spouses can complement each other doesn't settle every theological question about marriage, any more than describing a building's many functions tells us everything about its foundation.
As "defective" as we are, Lovette, it is possible for the husband to worship and reverence God ... the wife to worship and reverence God ... husband be committed to his wife and wife be committed to her husband in honor of the covenant relationship both have entered into with each other according to a godly rendering of the marital relationship.

I realize this is too fantastic for you to even begin to comprehend with all the baggage you bring to the table concerning marriage, but it is truly a blessing from God to be married to a spouse who loves God with all his or her heart, soul, mind, and strength.
Why do you keep presenting that truth as though it refutes my position?

Acknowledging that godly marriages exist doesn't require believing that everyone must marry. Recognizing the spiritual significance of marriage doesn't mean treating singleness as inferior. And discussing the biblical boundaries of marriage doesn't amount to rejecting the institution.

You're defending propositions that I haven't necessarily disputed, then acting as though you've demolished my argument.

And the remark about my being too defective or burdened with baggage to comprehend a godly marriage? That's not biblical exegesis. It's a personal insult dressed up as spiritual discernment.

Your marriage may indeed be a tremendous blessing. I'm not asking you to deny that. I'm asking you to stop treating your experience of that blessing as proof that your interpretation must be correct.
My whole point over the past month is not so simple – unknot all the knots and kinks you have tied in your abysmal view of marriage.
Then demonstrate where my interpretation contradicts Scripture.

Calling my view “abysmal” doesn't identify a textual error. Calling me defective doesn't establish a theological conclusion. And spending a month repeating the same accusations doesn't turn them into evidence.

If you believe I've misunderstood a passage, explain what it means in context, show how my interpretation differs from that meaning, and demonstrate why your reading is better supported.

That's how a substantive biblical discussion works.
Your rendering of what constitutes an "honorable and godly" marriage falls outside the scope of Scripture. Please do not expose others to your fakery.

.
That's quite an accusation. So let's get specific.

Which precise claim of mine falls outside Scripture? Which verse contradicts it? What does the verse establish in context, and how does that invalidate my interpretation?

If you can't answer those questions, then “fakery” is just another label you've attached to a position you dislike.

Nobody has a monopoly on biblical interpretation simply because they speak with confidence or invoke God's authority. Your interpretation must withstand scrutiny just as mine must.
 
My whole point over the past month is not so simple – unknot all the knots and kinks you have tied in your abysmal view of marriage.

Your rendering of what constitutes an "honorable and godly" marriage falls outside the scope of Scripture. Please do not expose others to your fakery.
How about you drop your idolatry of marriage? The only "fakery" is calling marriage "honorable and godly" when the couple only consider themselves honorable and godly in their own eyes, and neither of them lives in a "honorable and godly" community. My view is that ""honorable and godly" is jsut a marketing label, unless proven otherwise.
 
Yes, the Fall happened first and probably immediately; Satan probably did not waste any time before tempting them.
IOW, God's command created MFW.
I don't know what MFW is , tell me please .
 
Correct.



Correct.



Correct.



Correct, but why and how is the key.



This is where you are losing the plot.

I will drop a hint...

The couple had no shame, i.e., they had no reproductive organs before the Fall.
They had no reproductive organs !!!!!!! How on earth do u come to that conclusion ? There is nothing to substantiate that .
 
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Genesis 11:29 tells us that Abram and Nahor took wives. It doesn't provide a detailed account of how either marriage was arranged or how the spouses were introduced.

And that's precisely the point: the absence of a recorded detail isn't proof that the detail never occurred.
Sarah was Abram's sister, the daughter of his father but not of his mother.
 
I'm a newbie. Why is cussing and name calling allowed.?
Hi Annie , it's a bit shocking I know 😞 . I just try to stay calm and not curse or name call myself . People can get very heated when they r passionate about something and I believe that most on here r passionate about their faith , so sometimes things get a bit hot 😜 . If it's too hot for u then best try a different thread and don't get tangled up in other people's passion , or , do like I do and put some ice cubes in your shoes 😆 . As Christians we have to learn to forgive and forget , this is a good place to test your ability to do that ❤️ .
 
Not sure. But as a result of the curse, the woman got the worst of it - pain in childbirth, desire for (control over) the man, but he shall rule over her.

So the result has been the woman is cursed with a desire to control the man and to get out from under his rule.

The man’s curse was related to the ground, but God created him with a desire to pursue and (after the curse) sexual desire.

So, fast forward to today’s environment. Just about every male looks at porn on his phone and the wife knows about it. Many men have already committed infidelity, and the wife is finding out about it. In my estimation, this has been going on for awhile. Now these couples have either divorced, or some are trying to reconcile and be restored. Men are seeking deliverance from sexual addiction and women are attempting to forgive and work through restoration. This is where evidences of the curses are showing up.

Most of the couples mentioned are battling through consequences that have lead to sexless marriages for the most part. So that prompted me to look at what actually happened in the garden.
That's an interesting observation.
I wonder if the bigger question is whether Genesis 3 is describing the creation of new desires, or the corruption of relationships that God originally created to be good.
After the fall, everything seems affected: man's relationship with God, with the ground, with his wife, and ultimately with other people. Sin doesn't just impact one area, it spreads through all of life.

So when we see pornography, infidelity, divorce, bitterness, control, or sexless marriages today, those certainly look like evidence of a fallen world.
But I tend to see them as symptoms of the larger problem of sin rather than direct expressions of a specific curse on men or women.
In that sense, looking back to Genesis is helpful, because it shows us not only what was cursed, but also what was lost.
The harmony that existed between God, man, woman, and creation was broken, and we're still living with the consequences of that today.
 
How about you drop your idolatry of marriage? The only "fakery" is calling marriage "honorable and godly" when the couple only consider themselves honorable and godly in their own eyes, and neither of them lives in a "honorable and godly" community. My view is that ""honorable and godly" is jsut a marketing label, unless proven otherwise.
I think there's some truth in what you're saying.
A lot of people use words like "godly," "biblical," and "honorable" very casually while their lives look little different from the world around them.

But I'd ask: is the hypocrisy evidence against marriage itself, or against people who claim virtues they aren't actually living out?

Jesus often confronted that exact issue.
The Pharisees claimed righteousness, yet their lives didn't match their profession.
The problem wasn't that righteousness was fake.
The problem was that they were.

So I can agree that simply calling a marriage "godly" proves nothing.
The label isn't the evidence.
The real question is: What does the fruit look like?
Is there faithfulness?
Sacrifice?
Forgiveness?
Genuine love?
Accountability within a community that actually knows the couple?

If not, then "godly marriage" may just be a slogan.
But I wouldn't conclude from the existence of counterfeit marriages that biblical marriage itself is a counterfeit.
The existence of hypocrisy proves hypocrisy exists.
It doesn't necessarily disprove the thing being imitated.