-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
F
1 Tim 2:4 & 2:6, The "all men" & "all" are all of the elect. Heb 2:9, If you will look on down to verse 13 you will find he is refering to "the children which God gave him. John 3:16, Check with Thayer's difination of the word "world" and you will find, 2889, 8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort. a) a) used of believers only John 1:29, 3:16, 3:17, 6:33, 12:47, 1 Cor 4:9, 2 Cor 5:19. 1 John 2:2, has a reference to John 1:29, world meaning "believers only". Rom 5:6, His elect were the ungodly before he quickened them(Eph 2:2-3). 2 Pet 2:1, There are many born again children of God in this world who are false teachers, just look at the many on this forum. Matt 20:28, I don't know what version you study from, but the KJV says he gave his life a ransom for many, not all mankind. John 11:50-51, The "nation" in verse 51 is the Israel nation which is a type of his elect through the offspring of Jacob. God even changed Jacob's name to Israel(Gen 32:28). Eph 5:25, And who do you think is the bride, the church, but his elect? Gal 2:20, Paul is talking about himself, not all mankind.
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
You need to see (1Jn 2:2) broke down as to the meaning of certain words that are being modified by other words such as an adjective modifying a noun. The two words 'whole world' are 'holos kosmos' and are the same in (1Jn 5:9 - whole world lieth in wickedness and in Rev 12:9 - Satan which deceiveth the whole world). These two words mean, holos - all, altogether, complete and kosmos - inhabitants of the world (earth), men, the human race (Thayer #5). The adjective holos modifies the noun kosmos and is translated - 'all men of the human race that have inhabited the world or earth'. The believer is asserted in the first part of that verse with, 'our sins' and 'not ours only'. So this verse concerning Christ being the propitiation for sin covers the sins of the believer and also the sins of the entire human race that makes up the 'whole world'. This verse can not be interpreted or understood in any other manner than as it is written for both the believer (who was called out of the world Jn 15:19) and the unbeliever (who is of the world ).
Jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Jn 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard [him] ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
You need to see (1Jn 2:2) broke down as to the meaning of certain words that are being modified by other words such as an adjective modifying a noun. The two words 'whole world' are 'holos kosmos' and are the same in (1Jn 5:9 - whole world lieth in wickedness and in Rev 12:9 - Satan which deceiveth the whole world). These two words mean, holos - all, altogether, complete and kosmos - inhabitants of the world (earth), men, the human race (Thayer #5). The adjective holos modifies the noun kosmos and is translated - 'all men of the human race that have inhabited the world or earth'. The believer is asserted in the first part of that verse with, 'our sins' and 'not ours only'. So this verse concerning Christ being the propitiation for sin covers the sins of the believer and also the sins of the entire human race that makes up the 'whole world'. This verse can not be interpreted or understood in any other manner than as it is written for both the believer (who was called out of the world Jn 15:19) and the unbeliever (who is of the world ).
Jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Jn 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard [him] ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
E
wow the great extremes you al will go to amazes me.
you mean the same word "Kosmos" which John used in John 1
0 He was in the world, and the world (Kosmos) was made through Him, and the world (kosmos) did not know Him. 11 He came to His own,[c] and His own[d] did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
The same people that did not know him, or recieve him. But only those out of the world which recieved him were saved?
The same word in John 7: 7
John 7:7
The world (kosmos) cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil.
Same in John 9:
John 9:39
And Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world (kosmos), that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.”
And then you quote Thayer? Well lets look at what Thayer has to say!
1. in Grk. writ. fr. Hom, down, an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order.
2. as in Grk. writ. fr. Hom, down, ornament, decoration, adornment:
3. the world, i.e. the universe
4. the circle of the earth, the earth
5. the inhabitants of the world:
6. the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7. worldly affairs; the aggregate of things earthly; the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments, riches, advantages, pleasures, etc., which, although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ:
8. any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
Thayer, J. H. (1889). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Being Grimm's Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (357). New York: Harper & Brothers.
Funny how out of ALL 8 Defenitions. NOT ONE has what you said he said. why is that??
you mean the same word "Kosmos" which John used in John 1
0 He was in the world, and the world (Kosmos) was made through Him, and the world (kosmos) did not know Him. 11 He came to His own,[c] and His own[d] did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
The same people that did not know him, or recieve him. But only those out of the world which recieved him were saved?
The same word in John 7: 7
John 7:7
The world (kosmos) cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil.
Same in John 9:
John 9:39
And Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world (kosmos), that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.”
And then you quote Thayer? Well lets look at what Thayer has to say!
1. in Grk. writ. fr. Hom, down, an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order.
2. as in Grk. writ. fr. Hom, down, ornament, decoration, adornment:
3. the world, i.e. the universe
4. the circle of the earth, the earth
5. the inhabitants of the world:
6. the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7. worldly affairs; the aggregate of things earthly; the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments, riches, advantages, pleasures, etc., which, although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ:
8. any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
Thayer, J. H. (1889). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Being Grimm's Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (357). New York: Harper & Brothers.
Funny how out of ALL 8 Defenitions. NOT ONE has what you said he said. why is that??
F
With the sin of Adam, we were all doomed to everlasting punishment, even his elect, but God quickened his elect from a death of sin to a life in Christ Eph 2:5. We are all born a natural birth into this world and are but natural beings. 1 Cor 2:14 says the natural man cannot descern spiritual things, like confessing, repenting, seeking God, believing in a spiritual God. Ps 10:4, The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God, God is not in all his thoughts. Thats why it is by God's grace that any of us are saved eternally.
F
1 John 2:2, John 1:29 & John 3:16, in all three of these scriptures the word "world" is pertaining to believers only. Thater's 2889 8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort. a)a) used of believers only, John 1:29, 3:16, 3:17, 6:33, 12:47, 1 Cor 4:9, 2 Cor 5:19, 1 John 2:2. John 1:12, Unless they were born again they could not receive him, 1 Cor 2:14, The natural man cannot receive the things of the spirit, they are foolishness to him. Same position in 1 John 5:1
A
"Jesus did not die for all mankind"
that just sounds weird.
Jesus did not just die for mankind but for the WHOLE WORLD. the plants, the animals, the land itself was curse with Adam and REDEEMED by JESUS Christ.
John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
Romans 8:21-23
New King James Version (NKJV)
21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
Revelation 21
3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
6 And He said to me, “It is done![c] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,[d] and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
that just sounds weird.
Jesus did not just die for mankind but for the WHOLE WORLD. the plants, the animals, the land itself was curse with Adam and REDEEMED by JESUS Christ.
John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
Romans 8:21-23
New King James Version (NKJV)
21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
Revelation 21
3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
6 And He said to me, “It is done![c] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,[d] and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
Last edited:
F
This was not a good idea.
People react emotionally and blow up over this before they even begin to ask, "does what he say have any legitimacy?"
Good luck Forest.
Unless you're a universalist, you already believe in Limited Atonement, and just don't recognize it.
I will start you off with these to consider:
Matthew 26:28
John 10:11, 15
Matthew 25:32-33
John 17:9
Acts 20:28
Ephesians 5:25-27
Isaiah 53:12
People react emotionally and blow up over this before they even begin to ask, "does what he say have any legitimacy?"
Good luck Forest.
Unless you're a universalist, you already believe in Limited Atonement, and just don't recognize it.
I will start you off with these to consider:
Matthew 26:28
John 10:11, 15
Matthew 25:32-33
John 17:9
Acts 20:28
Ephesians 5:25-27
Isaiah 53:12
F
A
Jesus died to remove the curse of Adam from the world (not just humanity but the WHOLE WORLD and EVERYTHING in it.) but unfortunately people are still sinful and seek after the desires of their own hearts instead of the will of God. we suffer because it is God's will to be merciful and give people time to repent and turn to Him.
However there will be a day when creation will be as it should be and lion will lay down with lambs and eat veggies instead of each other as it stated in Genesis. obviously we aren't there yet.
can you imagine a world where snakes aren't posionous, No death, disease, famine, etc?
However there will be a day when creation will be as it should be and lion will lay down with lambs and eat veggies instead of each other as it stated in Genesis. obviously we aren't there yet.
can you imagine a world where snakes aren't posionous, No death, disease, famine, etc?
F
Anyone that believes that his actions of good works are going to save him eternally will always fear that he is not of the elect, because all of us should know that none of us have good enough works to justify us for eternal salvation. You will never understand the grace of God until you understand your depravity. If God wants all mankind to be saved eternally, then explain Dan 4:35 & Isa 50:2. God accomplishes all of his will.
F
I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile
A
what does those verses have to do with your point?
Daniel 4
34 And at the end of the time I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my understanding returned to me; and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him who lives forever:
For His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
And His kingdom is from generation to generation.
35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing;
He does according to His will in the army of heaven
And among the inhabitants of the earth.
No one can restrain His hand
Or say to Him, “What have You done?”
36 At the same time my reason returned to me, and for the glory of my kingdom, my honor and splendor returned to me. My counselors and nobles resorted to me, I was restored to my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added to me. 37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, all of whose works are truth, and His ways justice. And those who walk in pride He is able to put down.
after he spent some time as a barn animal... don't see how this has anything to do with election, but ok...
Isa 50: 2
2 Why, when I came, was there no man?
Why, when I called, was there none to answer?
Is My hand shortened at all that it cannot redeem?
Or have I no power to deliver?
Indeed with My rebuke I dry up the sea,
I make the rivers a wilderness;
Their fish stink because there is no water,
And die of thirst.
yeah that doesn't make much sense either.... hmmm...
Daniel 4
34 And at the end of the time I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my understanding returned to me; and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him who lives forever:
For His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
And His kingdom is from generation to generation.
35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing;
He does according to His will in the army of heaven
And among the inhabitants of the earth.
No one can restrain His hand
Or say to Him, “What have You done?”
36 At the same time my reason returned to me, and for the glory of my kingdom, my honor and splendor returned to me. My counselors and nobles resorted to me, I was restored to my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added to me. 37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, all of whose works are truth, and His ways justice. And those who walk in pride He is able to put down.
after he spent some time as a barn animal... don't see how this has anything to do with election, but ok...
Isa 50: 2
2 Why, when I came, was there no man?
Why, when I called, was there none to answer?
Is My hand shortened at all that it cannot redeem?
Or have I no power to deliver?
Indeed with My rebuke I dry up the sea,
I make the rivers a wilderness;
Their fish stink because there is no water,
And die of thirst.
yeah that doesn't make much sense either.... hmmm...
F
Re: Jesus did die for all mankind
Notice how he starts verse 1 off. MY LITTLE CHILDREN,(Rom 8:16-17-The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God. And if children, then heirs, heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.) these thing I write unto you, And he is the propitiation for the sins of those that he is talking to and also for the sins of the whole world(of his elect). The word "world" is pertaining to believers only, Thayer's translation.
Notice how he starts verse 1 off. MY LITTLE CHILDREN,(Rom 8:16-17-The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God. And if children, then heirs, heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.) these thing I write unto you, And he is the propitiation for the sins of those that he is talking to and also for the sins of the whole world(of his elect). The word "world" is pertaining to believers only, Thayer's translation.