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Christ did not die on the cross for all mankind's sins but only for God's elect, those that his Father gave him.John 6:37-41. They were eternally saved at the time of Jesus's crucification and they were also made just at the same time. There is no plan of eternal salvation for man other than God's plan that was carried out by his Son on the cross. Many of God's elect are going about trying to establish their own eternal salvation by their works, not realizing they have already been saved eternally by Christ.
As you can see there is a certain order in God's salvific work, as recorded in Romans 8:29-30, where calling is mentioned before justification.
It is God, not man, that justifies. And He do this on a legal ground. When does this justification occur? The Bible says:
So, here we see that justification is by faith. A faith that the elect owns as his own possession.
It is God, not man, that justifies. And He do this on a legal ground. When does this justification occur? The Bible says:
So, here we see that justification is by faith. A faith that the elect owns as his own possession.
This is false. Gospel believers do not believe that faith is a work, or that faith is conditional of salvation. As has been shown earlier. But they do believe that faith is imputed to the elect in time, and that this faith is a personal faith that is real and that the elect do actually possess.
The way you are putting is that the faith of the elect is only Christ's faith. Yet Christ did not need faith in the same way as sinners need faith. However as true as it is that the elect will be partakers of and accounted all the righteousness of Christ's life, as true it also is that the elect must be regenerated and justified by the means that God has ordained.
The way you are putting is that the faith of the elect is only Christ's faith. Yet Christ did not need faith in the same way as sinners need faith. However as true as it is that the elect will be partakers of and accounted all the righteousness of Christ's life, as true it also is that the elect must be regenerated and justified by the means that God has ordained.
This is a false accusation which basically says that gospel believers holds to a contradiction in God's salvific work or that they believe that God is mutable.
The faulty logic of eternal justification advocates says that in order for God to be immutable He must always either show love toward a person or always show wrath toward a person. This reasoning falls flat when one consider that the sins of God's people were imputed to Christ on the cross and God poured out His wrath on His only begotten and beloved Son. God forsook Christ when the sins of His people were imputed to Him (Mark 15:34).
God, in His holiness, righteousness and justice, cannot look upon sin and must show wrath toward sin and punish it. What will eternal justification advocates say about this? They would either have to say, contrary to scripture, that God was always wrathful toward His only begotten Son, from before the foundation of the world, and continues to pour out His wrath on His only begotten Son, or that God never showed wrath toward His Son, even at the cross. The truth is that God loved His Son, who remained holy, unspotted and undefiled in His person, even on the cross, yet God also showed wrath toward His Son, based on the imputed sins of His people.
God's wrath was even upon the elect, in time, before they had the imputed righteousness of Christ, yet He also shows love when the righteousness of Christ is imputed to them, in time. At the very opposite of the false accusation then, this shows God's immutability since He is unchangeably holy and just and must show wrath where there is sin and must show love where there is righteousness.
The faulty logic of eternal justification advocates says that in order for God to be immutable He must always either show love toward a person or always show wrath toward a person. This reasoning falls flat when one consider that the sins of God's people were imputed to Christ on the cross and God poured out His wrath on His only begotten and beloved Son. God forsook Christ when the sins of His people were imputed to Him (Mark 15:34).
God, in His holiness, righteousness and justice, cannot look upon sin and must show wrath toward sin and punish it. What will eternal justification advocates say about this? They would either have to say, contrary to scripture, that God was always wrathful toward His only begotten Son, from before the foundation of the world, and continues to pour out His wrath on His only begotten Son, or that God never showed wrath toward His Son, even at the cross. The truth is that God loved His Son, who remained holy, unspotted and undefiled in His person, even on the cross, yet God also showed wrath toward His Son, based on the imputed sins of His people.
God's wrath was even upon the elect, in time, before they had the imputed righteousness of Christ, yet He also shows love when the righteousness of Christ is imputed to them, in time. At the very opposite of the false accusation then, this shows God's immutability since He is unchangeably holy and just and must show wrath where there is sin and must show love where there is righteousness.
I have not many any judgment who are among the elect (or not) here at this forum. All I have said is that I believe that Paul is correct when he judged that those who are ignorant of the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel, are yet unregenerate.
It is you who are the one who judge that people who yet believe in heresies (which like its siblings idolatry and witchcraft is a work of the flesh - Gal.5:20) are the elect, that there are people who believes in false gospels, who believe in lies, who lives in sin and are ignorant about the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel, that are yet regenerate. And you have yet refused to answer the question on what basis and foundation you make this judgment on.
Therefore I re-post my earlier related input to you:
My question to you is: Do you think an "eternally saved" person will go his whole life, even until death, totally ignorant about the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel? Can an "eternally saved" person believe false gospels, damnable heresies and be a worker of iniquity all his life, and die in that state, and yet be among the "eternally saved"? All that signifies that they are among the "eternally saved" is a zeal for their beliefs and their god?
How do you discern if someone is regenerate or not? Do saved people have any certain marks as how to what they believe and teach and live their lives or is just about anyone who professes interest in God, religion, the Bible, morals etc (however false it would ever be) among the "eternally saved"?
Do you see where your reasoning leads to?!?!
It is you who are the one who judge that people who yet believe in heresies (which like its siblings idolatry and witchcraft is a work of the flesh - Gal.5:20) are the elect, that there are people who believes in false gospels, who believe in lies, who lives in sin and are ignorant about the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel, that are yet regenerate. And you have yet refused to answer the question on what basis and foundation you make this judgment on.
Therefore I re-post my earlier related input to you:
My question to you is: Do you think an "eternally saved" person will go his whole life, even until death, totally ignorant about the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel? Can an "eternally saved" person believe false gospels, damnable heresies and be a worker of iniquity all his life, and die in that state, and yet be among the "eternally saved"? All that signifies that they are among the "eternally saved" is a zeal for their beliefs and their god?
How do you discern if someone is regenerate or not? Do saved people have any certain marks as how to what they believe and teach and live their lives or is just about anyone who professes interest in God, religion, the Bible, morals etc (however false it would ever be) among the "eternally saved"?
Do you see where your reasoning leads to?!?!
If I recall it correctly, I asked you in an earlier thread if you believe that spiritual man is born a spiritual man at his physical (natural) birth. To this you said "no". However, this is inconsequent when taking the implications of "eternal justification" to its ultimate end.
Those who are spiritual must consequently have been eternally spiritual, even when they were yet into their fleshly imaginations and unbelief, which yet must have been spiritual and belief anyway. This is the absurd "logic" of this confusion. However, it is not scriptural.
Those who are spiritual must consequently have been eternally spiritual, even when they were yet into their fleshly imaginations and unbelief, which yet must have been spiritual and belief anyway. This is the absurd "logic" of this confusion. However, it is not scriptural.
I
Death and by death, wrath comes to us ALL! The ONLY way to understand the bible is with the mind of Christ. That is to judge this; that if One died for ALL of us, then ALL of us were dead. So then it is not of ANY of us to save ourselves. It is love that saves, and that He first loved us ALL while we were sinners! And if He can lay down His life for us all, surely you can lay down your life for the man you still deem a sinner as well!
To love your neighbor as you do yourself is the fulfillment of ALL the law.
Forest, you say you was once INCAPABLE of learning the truth of the gospel being a natural man. That it was only by "revelation" being quickened in spirit, that YOU were made alive.
Now if God was able to "quicken" YOU from the dead, why then believe that those from which YOU come from are hopelessly doomed? Or did not you learn this lesson in the dry bones in Ezekiel?
To love your neighbor as you do yourself is the fulfillment of ALL the law.
Forest, you say you was once INCAPABLE of learning the truth of the gospel being a natural man. That it was only by "revelation" being quickened in spirit, that YOU were made alive.
Now if God was able to "quicken" YOU from the dead, why then believe that those from which YOU come from are hopelessly doomed? Or did not you learn this lesson in the dry bones in Ezekiel?
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God's means of justifying his elect was by his Son's death on the cross to make them just. Just because that gospel believers do not believe that their believing and faith is not a work, does not erase the fact that it is a work. Christ had faith that he could accomplish his Father's will Gal 2:16 and John 6:37-41. It is only by Christ's faith that we are justified Gal 2:16. Other scriptures that say "through faith" is talking about Christ's faith.
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What does the scripture mean that says "ye shall know them by their fruits"? Fruits being those pointed out in Gal 5. Read 1 Cor 2 and tell me if that description fits those who are spending their time in trying to understand spiritual things, as some of these on this forum? You will never understand the grace of God until you understand the depravity of man, even the elect man.
No scripture describes faith as a work. But if anyone want to call it a work then it is not man's work, but the work of God. It is an instrument by which the elect receive the imputed righteousness of Christ. This is a legal act, a declaration that they are righteous. This implies the law, under which they earlier were guilty of transgression. Eternal justification advocates do not believe that the law and gospel always are inseparable, yet must also always be distinguished.
F
You are not understanding the depth of what Christ accomplished on the cross. In John 6:37-41 Christ died only for those that God gave him and he secured their eternal salvation, every one of them that he died for. Because of his sacrifice, God looks at those that he redeemed as Holy and without blame before him, Eph 1. Their sins are as far away from God as the east is from the west, and he remembers them no more. All of God's elect are born into this world as but natural beings but during this time God looks upon them as Holy and without blame. Christ did not die to give all mankind a "chance" to be saved if they will accept his offering, Christ's offering was to God and not to man, for God's acceptance and not man's acceptance. God gets all of the glory and honour and man gets none for his eternal salvation. Our believing brings to light that we have been justified by Christ, but our believing does not play a part in our actual justification.
Galatians 5 does not talk about the fruit of the Spirit only, but also the works of the flesh. These includes idolatry, witchcraft, strife, seditions, heresies etc. But you believe that regenerate persons can live in these works of the flesh, they maybe only need to be "timely saved" from it? Just that they show what you think is some "zeal of God", then you think they are regenerate.
Your judgment of "fruit" is very strange, to say the least. Strange it is also when you talk about total depravity and yet seem to imply that a regenerate person may never even believe that there is such a thing as total depravity. You need to mirror yourself in your own questions and suggestions.
All who are regenerated have the fruit of the Spirit while believing the gospel, those who are unregenerate do not believe the gospel and manifest thereby works of the flesh. That's what the Bible says.
Your judgment of "fruit" is very strange, to say the least. Strange it is also when you talk about total depravity and yet seem to imply that a regenerate person may never even believe that there is such a thing as total depravity. You need to mirror yourself in your own questions and suggestions.
All who are regenerated have the fruit of the Spirit while believing the gospel, those who are unregenerate do not believe the gospel and manifest thereby works of the flesh. That's what the Bible says.
You do not get this. It is not a matter, even in its depths, as to how God looks upon the elect from eternity past, it is a matter of God's justice and judgment over sin and LEGAL justification of sinners.
And I have never even suggested that Christ gave all mankind a "chance" to be saved if they will accept his offering, so why do you argue about that?
I ask again: do you actually read my posts or not?
And I have never even suggested that Christ gave all mankind a "chance" to be saved if they will accept his offering, so why do you argue about that?
I ask again: do you actually read my posts or not?
F
God choose an elect people before the foundation of the worlds, Eph 1. We all are born into this world as natural beings including the elect. God quickens his elect from being but a natural man to a life in Christ. This quickening took place while the elect was dead (spiritually dead) in sins. We can never be an instrument in saving someone to eternal life. Our purpose in this life is not to help God save sinners, He is capable of doing that by himself. We are here to praise and honour God by loving him with all of our heart and loving oneanother. God does not quicken those that are not his.