Worshipping the Bible is Idolatry!

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
This would not "place us greater than Mary", that's blasphemy,

It is? Says who? Says your and your pagan church?

you want to say you're are better than Mary, the "Mother of my Lord"? (Luke 1:43).

I am not greater. Nor less, Like her I am a sinner who needed her son to save me from my sins.


"Why should this happen to me, to have the mother of my Lord visit me?"
The mother of your Lord can't visit you. She, Like all of Gods children who have gone before us, are awaiting the return of her son and her resurrection. Where do you get that she could visit you or anyone else. She is not a pagan God. She is a child of her son (born of the spirit) who is awaiting her sons return.

The Scriptures testify, not saying that we are better than Mary, the Mother of God, in fact it says the opposite.

Mary is not the mother of God. God HAS NO MOTHER. Jesus said BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS, I AM.. God was around long before Mary was even born.

The mother of God is a pagan belief. Not a Christian belief. Mary Gave birth To Christ's humanity. Christ's diety never had a begining, nor did it have a birth!

What do you mean by "we have something they never had?
They had to wait, before they could recieve the blessings we have. They were visited by God. they had prophets who spoke directly from God. We have Gods word. And are on our own, and only have the body of Christ.


The Strong's Concordance says, "From G3107; to beatify, that is, pronounce (or esteem) fortunate: - call blessed, count happy.

What does the word blessed mean in the English?

Blessed | Define Blessed at Dictionary.com

1.
consecrated; sacred; holy; sanctified: the Blessed Sacrament.
2.

worthy of adoration, reverence, or worship: the Blessed Trinity.


When you say it only means that she is "happy", you are taking the wrong definition.

According to the English definition of blessed, it does mean that she is holy. 1.
consecrated; sacred; holy; sanctified: the Blessed Sacrament.
here is more!

μακαρίζω 3106
For this verb = “deem (account) happy” (Lk 1:48, Jas 5:11) cf. Vett. Val. p. 8825 where it is said of a man born under certain planetary influences—ύπὸ πολλῶν μακαρισθήσετσι.


Moulton, J. H., & Milligan, G. (1930). The vocabulary of the Greek Testament (386). London: Hodder and Stoughton.

μακαρίζω
regard as happy: 25.120

Louw Nida

English defenition? Since when was scripture written in English? We don;t use an englsih disctionary to define a word. we use a lexicon of the origional text used to write the word to get the defenition. Thats the problem with you people, you will use anything to get your faulty doctrines believable, and ignore things which would prove you wrong!

The defenitions I gave above are the defenitions of the word used By Luke himself. We don't add to that defenition. We read it as it would have been read by the people the author wrote it to.


Yes, Jesus did teach that John was the greatest until that time,

Which would make him greater than mary, Because Both mary and John were alive at that time.


but the main moral of the teaching is that the Christians (including Mary) who are the "least in the Kingdom of God" would to greater than he.
In other words, it does not matter anymore how great the birth of John the Baptist was because even the least Christian who is "born again" (John 3:3) is better than him.

Jesus was not trying to state how John the Baptist was "the greatest", he was pronouncing CHRISTIANS (including Mary) as being much better than the Old Testament Prophets (which John the Baptist was one of). Jesus was talking about Christian who were being "born again" (see John 3:3) as being greater than the noble birth of John the Baptist. Do you get it now?

I suggest you read the text again. "He that is LEAST in the Kingdom of Heaven is GREATER THAN HE (John the Baptist)"
This is not about that., This is about who Jesus considered greater at the time he said this. when Both Mary and John were born.

what you just said, is that mary and ALL born again christians are greater.. wow. then where do you get Mary is greater?? Certainly not from luke one. unless you wish to twist scripture by using an english defenition to define a greek word!
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
This would not "place us greater than Mary", that's blasphemy, you want to say you're are better than Mary, the "Mother of my Lord"? (Luke 1:43). "Why should this happen to me, to have the mother of my Lord visit me?" The Scriptures testify, not saying that we are better than Mary, the Mother of God, in fact it says the opposite.
for a person to claim to be greater than mary would be arrogant maybe...but not blasphemous...

i am sure you are just throwing around the term 'blasphemy' very loosely...but -technically- the only way a claim to be greater than mary could be blasphemy would be if you believe mary is God...

but -that- belief would be blasphemy in itself...
 
Nov 23, 2011
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It is? Says who? Says your and your pagan church?



I am not greater. Nor less, Like her I am a sinner who needed her son to save me from my sins.




The mother of your Lord can't visit you. She, Like all of Gods children who have gone before us, are awaiting the return of her son and her resurrection. Where do you get that she could visit you or anyone else. She is not a pagan God. She is a child of her son (born of the spirit) who is awaiting her sons return.



Mary is not the mother of God. God HAS NO MOTHER. Jesus said BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS, I AM.. God was around long before Mary was even born.

The mother of God is a pagan belief. Not a Christian belief. Mary Gave birth To Christ's humanity. Christ's diety never had a begining, nor did it have a birth!



They had to wait, before they could recieve the blessings we have. They were visited by God. they had prophets who spoke directly from God. We have Gods word. And are on our own, and only have the body of Christ.




here is more!

μακαρίζω 3106
For this verb = “deem (account) happy” (Lk 1:48, Jas 5:11) cf. Vett. Val. p. 8825 where it is said of a man born under certain planetary influences—ύπὸ πολλῶν μακαρισθήσετσι.


Moulton, J. H., & Milligan, G. (1930). The vocabulary of the Greek Testament (386). London: Hodder and Stoughton.

μακαρίζω
regard as happy: 25.120

Louw Nida

English defenition? Since when was scripture written in English? We don;t use an englsih disctionary to define a word. we use a lexicon of the origional text used to write the word to get the defenition. Thats the problem with you people, you will use anything to get your faulty doctrines believable, and ignore things which would prove you wrong!

The defenitions I gave above are the defenitions of the word used By Luke himself. We don't add to that defenition. We read it as it would have been read by the people the author wrote it to.



Which would make him greater than mary, Because Both mary and John were alive at that time.




This is not about that., This is about who Jesus considered greater at the time he said this. when Both Mary and John were born.

what you just said, is that mary and ALL born again christians are greater.. wow. then where do you get Mary is greater?? Certainly not from luke one. unless you wish to twist scripture by using an english defenition to define a greek word!

Mary IS the Mother of God the Son.
She is not the Mother of God the Father.
She is not the Mother of God the Holy Spirit.
But she IS the Mother of God the Son.
Thus, to deny she is the Mother of God, of God the Son, is heresy, and it is denying that Jesus Christ is God the Son. Simple truth.
The Mother of God is a Christian belief. Those who deny it are heretics, pagans.
They deny that Christ is God, for if Mary is not God the Son's Mother, then Jesus Christ is not God the Son.
Since Christ gives to every soul according to his/her works, some souls have more good works than other souls, so they have more blessed rewards than those with lesser good works. Salvation is not of works, lest any one should boast (Eph. 2:8-9), but is not without works, because faith without works is dead (James).
Salvation is only by God's mercy, not by deeds of righteousness (Titus 3:5), and a Christian is justified by good works (James 2:24), and not by faith alone.
 
S

StMichaelTheArchangel

Guest
for a person to claim to be greater than mary would be arrogant maybe...but not blasphemous...

i am sure you are just throwing around the term 'blasphemy' very loosely...but -technically- the only way a claim to be greater than mary could be blasphemy would be if you believe mary is God...

but -that- belief would be blasphemy in itself...
It is blasphemy because Mary is the Mother of the Lord Jesus Christ. In her blessed virgin state she conceived Jesus Christ who is the savior of all. She is "Ever Virgin" because virginity is a blessed and holy state, and obviously so because Mary bore Jesus as a virgin.

If we deny her Every Virginity then we also deny her holiness, and denying her holiness is to deny her ability to conceive God the Word. The Holy Church adopted the term "Ever Virgin Mary" in order to thwart heresies like Arianism, Gnosticism and Nestorianism. Arianism denied the Humanity of Christ and so did the Gnostics. Nestorius was a borderline Arian in that he wanted to call the Theotokos (God bearer) the Christotokos, which is incorrect and heretical. When we deny the doctrine of the Theotokos and Every Virgin Mary, we give room for heretics such as the Gnostics and the Arians to say that Jesus was either never born of Mary, or that He did not even come in the flesh.
 

superdave5221

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
31
48
You say that the Bible is the "only source of infallible doctrine", but how are you going to understand what the Bible says, "unless someone guides me (you)?” (Acts 8:31). By saying that man's interpretation is wrong you are condemning yourself because you too are a man, and you are certainly not an ordained teacher or an interpreter who has been chosen by Christ and the Church.

If you had more ambition, power and money, you would likely end up creating your own church, because you don't believe in the One Church. This is the problem with Protestants approach to Holy Scriptures, they believe that you they can appoint themselves as infallible teachers. And this is why there are 25,000 different divisions in the Christian Church and no "Unity of the Faith" (Eph 4).






You are again making a big mistake here because of advance of Christian Relativism and Heresy. You see, in 325 AD, the Nicene Creed was written. This Creed was created in order to lay down the basics of Christianity. The Nicene Creed was created so that nobody (including heretical bishops) could misinterpret the Scriptures and cause Heresy in the Church. When the Protestants reject the Nicene Creed and the Church, they set themselves up to be, "Tossed as by waves, and being carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in regard to deceitful scheming," (Ephesians 4:14)
Actually you are the one who is the relativist. Relativism is the belief that the group determines truth, (as opposed to subjectivism in which the individual determines truth). Since you are claiming that only the Eastern Orthodox leaders can determine truth, it is YOU who are stooping to relativism.

My epistemology on the other hand is one in which I assert that all people have access to OBJECTIVE TRUTH, and that this objective truth is found in the Holy Scriptures, and is imparted by Holy Spirit in a manner which is determined at His discretion.

You are claiming that truth is available to you only through the leaders of the orthodox church.

My question to you is "where does your faith come from?". Do you also depend on your church leaders for your faith?

Since that is your only source for truth, it would also have to be the only source for your faith as well.

If that is the case, I do pity you.
 
Nov 23, 2011
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Actually you are the one who is the relativist. Relativism is the belief that the group determines truth, (as opposed to subjectivism in which the individual determines truth). Since you are claiming that only the Eastern Orthodox leaders can determine truth, it is YOU who are stooping to relativism.

My epistemology on the other hand is one in which I assert that all people have access to OBJECTIVE TRUTH, and that this objective truth is found in the Holy Scriptures, and is imparted by Holy Spirit in a manner which is determined at His discretion.

You are claiming that truth is available to you only through the leaders of the orthodox church.

My question to you is "where does your faith come from?". Do you also depend on your church leaders for your faith?

Since that is your only source for truth, it would also have to be the only source for your faith as well.

If that is the case, I do pity you.


Dear superdave:
If what you say is true, then truth (even The Truth) comes from the human mind. But in the Scripture, the LORD says (warns): "Your thoughts are not My thoughts; and your ways are not My ways". So it can't be the case that everyone can come to Christ, unless the Father draws them first. The Father draws them first only from the first moment they confess the Right Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, the "Faith once delivered unto the Saints" (Jude), which is In the Church (Eph. 4, 1 Tim. 3:15, Matthew 16:18); Christ founded One Body, the Church, not a collection of individual divided Protestant individuals or individuals all on their own.
Your words above are "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing" (Shakespeare).
God bless you. In Erie Scott Harrington
PS Your only source for truth is YOURSELF. How sad!
 

superdave5221

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
31
48
Dear superdave:
If what you say is true, then truth (even The Truth) comes from the human mind. But in the Scripture, the LORD says (warns): "Your thoughts are not My thoughts; and your ways are not My ways". So it can't be the case that everyone can come to Christ, unless the Father draws them first. The Father draws them first only from the first moment they confess the Right Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, the "Faith once delivered unto the Saints" (Jude), which is In the Church (Eph. 4, 1 Tim. 3:15, Matthew 16:18); Christ founded One Body, the Church, not a collection of individual divided Protestant individuals or individuals all on their own.
Your words above are "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing" (Shakespeare).
God bless you. In Erie Scott Harrington
PS Your only source for truth is YOURSELF. How sad!
I am claiming that truth comes from the mind of God, as imparted through Holy Spirit. You claim that truth comes from the human mind, but only the human minds of your church leaders.

P.S. Truth does come from within myself. It comes from Holy Spirit who dwells within me! How Glad! I don't have to depend on someone else for my faith.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest

It is? Says who? Says your and your pagan church?



I am not greater. Nor less, Like her I am a sinner who needed her son to save me from my sins.




The mother of your Lord can't visit you. She, Like all of Gods children who have gone before us, are awaiting the return of her son and her resurrection. Where do you get that she could visit you or anyone else. She is not a pagan God. She is a child of her son (born of the spirit) who is awaiting her sons return.



Mary is not the mother of God. God HAS NO MOTHER. Jesus said BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS, I AM.. God was around long before Mary was even born.

The mother of God is a pagan belief. Not a Christian belief. Mary Gave birth To Christ's humanity. Christ's diety never had a begining, nor did it have a birth!



They had to wait, before they could recieve the blessings we have. They were visited by God. they had prophets who spoke directly from God. We have Gods word. And are on our own, and only have the body of Christ.




here is more!

μακαρίζω 3106
For this verb = “deem (account) happy” (Lk 1:48, Jas 5:11) cf. Vett. Val. p. 8825 where it is said of a man born under certain planetary influences—ύπὸ πολλῶν μακαρισθήσετσι.


Moulton, J. H., & Milligan, G. (1930). The vocabulary of the Greek Testament (386). London: Hodder and Stoughton.

μακαρίζω
regard as happy: 25.120

Louw Nida

English defenition? Since when was scripture written in English? We don;t use an englsih disctionary to define a word. we use a lexicon of the origional text used to write the word to get the defenition. Thats the problem with you people, you will use anything to get your faulty doctrines believable, and ignore things which would prove you wrong!

The defenitions I gave above are the defenitions of the word used By Luke himself. We don't add to that defenition. We read it as it would have been read by the people the author wrote it to.


Mary IS the Mother of God the Son.

She is the mother of his humanity. She is not the mother of his diety. His diety did not have a birth. had no beginning and no end. Only a pagan belief would have in their doctrine that God can actually be born. Mary gave the son a human body, in wich the son could leave his heavanly abode. become lower than the angels and take our sin on his body.

She is not the Mother of God the Father.
She is not the Mother of God the Holy Spirit.
Agreed

But she IS the Mother of God the Son.
Thus, to deny she is the Mother of God, of God the Son, is heresy, and it is denying that Jesus Christ is God the Son. Simple truth.
Your wrong. Saying Mary is the mother of God is saying that the son did not exist before he was born. According to scripture. The son helped create the universe. He helped create man in his own image. He stated himself that before Abraham was in existence. He was alive. So unless you think Mary was somehow around and gave birth to the son long before mankind was even created. It is heresy to believe Mary is the mother of God.


The Mother of God is a Christian belief. Those who deny it are heretics, pagans.
They deny that Christ is God, for if Mary is not God the Son's Mother, then Jesus Christ is not God the Son.

No. The mother of God is a pagan belief. its states God had a beginning and was born. God has no beginning If he had a beginning he was not God. Jesus was God incarnate. Given a human body. Mary birthed the body. But God the son was alive before Mary was even conceived. So she could not possibly be his mother.


Since Christ gives to every soul according to his/her works, some souls have more good works than other souls, so they have more blessed rewards than those with lesser good works.
I agree. but it does nt make them greater, because who gets the credit? God or man?
Salvation is not of works, lest any one should boast (Eph. 2:8-9), but is not without works, because faith without works is dead (James).
Yep. those who are saved will at least show some kind of works. But scripture says that some will remain babes in Christ and have little reward. Some will grow to maturity and have great reward. but both will be saved. It is those who show zero works, but have a mere belief that will not be saved.
Salvation is not of works. it produces works, there is a huge difference there!

Salvation is only by God's mercy, not by deeds of righteousness (Titus 3:5), and a Christian is justified by good works (James 2:24), and not by faith alone.
You just contradicted yourself.

we can't be saved by gods mercy, and have to work for it, that is a contradiction of terms. Mercy is given freely. a reward is given for work, not mercy.

and again, your twisting james. James said zero works, zero faith. a person with zero faith according to eph 2 is not saved. because he did not have faith. a person who is saved by faith (alone) will produce works as paul said in eph 2: 10\

trying to twist the gospel and make it earned is to reject the gift and mercy of God.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
It is blasphemy because Mary is the Mother of the Lord Jesus Christ. In her blessed virgin state she conceived Jesus Christ who is the savior of all. She is "Ever Virgin" because virginity is a blessed and holy state, and obviously so because Mary bore Jesus as a virgin.

If we deny her Every Virginity then we also deny her holiness, and denying her holiness is to deny her ability to conceive God the Word. The Holy Church adopted the term "Ever Virgin Mary" in order to thwart heresies like Arianism, Gnosticism and Nestorianism. Arianism denied the Humanity of Christ and so did the Gnostics. Nestorius was a borderline Arian in that he wanted to call the Theotokos (God bearer) the Christotokos, which is incorrect and heretical. When we deny the doctrine of the Theotokos and Every Virgin Mary, we give room for heretics such as the Gnostics and the Arians to say that Jesus was either never born of Mary, or that He did not even come in the flesh.
This is plain false. Mary only had to be a virgin until she gave birth. once she gave birth she no longer needed to remain a virgin. If nothing else she was obligated to "consummate" her marriage with her husband. Else she was never married.

As for Mary's holiness. who claimed she was holy? if she was holy she had no need of a savior. Yet she herself calls Christ her savior. One only needs a savior when they need saved.

Again. The belief iun the :mother of God" "sinlessness of mary" is holding her equal to Christ. and a God. for only God can birth God. And only God is sinless.

Jesus made this claim himself!
 
Nov 23, 2011
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StMichaelTheArchangel;610577 said:
It is blasphemy because Mary is the Mother of the Lord Jesus Christ. In

her blessed virgin state she conceived Jesus Christ who is the savior of all. She is "Ever Virgin" because

virginity is a blessed and holy state, and obviously so because Mary bore Jesus as a virgin.

If we deny her Every Virginity then we also deny her holiness, and denying her holiness is to deny her

ability to conceive God the Word. The Holy Church adopted the term "Ever Virgin Mary" in order to thwart

heresies like Arianism, Gnosticism and Nestorianism. Arianism denied the Humanity of Christ and so did the

Gnostics.

Nestorius was a borderline Arian in that he wanted to call the Theotokos (God bearer) the Christotokos,

which is incorrect and heretical. When we deny the doctrine of the Theotokos and Every Virgin Mary, we

give room for heretics such as the Gnostics and the Arians to say that Jesus was either never born of

Mary, or that He did not even come in the flesh.
Dear friend: According to the following source, it is heresy to call Mary ONLY the Christotokos, and NOT

also the Theotokos. Mary is the Christotokos, but she is not only that; she is ALSO the THEOTOKOS.

How do I know what I am saying is THE TRUTH? I read it in ST. CYRIL OF ALEXANDRIA, a HOLY

ORTHODOX CHURCH FATHER.

CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING, dear blessed friend of St. Michael our Protector in CHRIST, our

Saviour-LORD:

Saint Cyril of Alexandria. (2004). Against Those Who Are Unwilling to Confess that the Holy Virgin Is

Theotokos. Edited and translated from the Greek by Protopresbyter George Dion. Dragas. PATRISTIC

AND ECCLESIASTICAL TEXTS AND TRANSLATIONS I.
Rollinsford, NH: Orthodox Research Institute.

Orthodox Research Institute


1. INTRODUCTION by Protopresbyter George ....

"The term Theotokos helped to establish the truth that Jesus Christ, who was born of the Virgin Mary,

was actually the preexisting Son of God who also became man without ceasing to be God in order to

recapitulate in Himself the entire humanity and work out an eternal salvation for it. The point here is that

Jesus Christ is the same Son of God who as true God "was born" ineffably and eternally from the Father

and as true man was born in time and according to the flesh from the Virgin for the completion of the

ages. Jesus Christ is one person (or hypostasis = specific existence) who unites in Himself two natures

the divine and the human and thus deifies the human by leading it to participate in the perfections of the

divine. The term Theotokos, then, brings out all these aspects of the mystery of the Incarnation and

stresses its soteriological import.

"St. Cyril was not the first to use this dogmatic term Theotokos in a Christological dogmatic sense.

Several theologians before him, including St. Athanasius and the Cappadocians, as well as conciliar

Church documents, had used it in their writings. St. Cyril defended its propriety and explained its

dogmatic significance for the Church's doctrine of Christ, because Patriarch Nestorius of Constantinople

denounced it as unacceptable. In the debate the ensued, it became obvious that Nestorius entertained

a false doctrine of Christ, which eventually led to his condemnation. It was he who became an innovator

and deviator from the Church's Tradition and not St. Cyril as some contemporary scholars have asserted.

2. ST. CYRIL's CONTROVERSY WITH NESTORIUS. Nestorius became Patriarch of Constantinople in

428 and immediately acquired a great reputation as a preacher. Unfortunately, however, he soon

emerged as a supporter of one of his priests, called Anastasios, who rejected the term Theotokos as a

title that could be appropriately applied to the Virgin Mother of Christ. As Nestorius explained, the Virgin

Mary could not have given birth to God, but to a man -- actually a God-bearing man (anthropon

theophoron)
who came to be called Christ because of his union with the Word and the Spirit of God --

and, therefore, she could at best be called Christotokos (Christ-bearer) but never Theotokos (God-

bearer), which is rather blasphemous.

"Reaction to this came from St. Cyril, Patriarch of Alexandria, who argued that Christ was not a mere

man but God's Son and Word (Logos), born of the Father eternally and remaining very God from very

God and eternally one with God, who was also born as man in time from the Virgin Mary and the Holy

Spirit; therefore, His human Mother should be called Theotokos. For St. Cyril, rejecting this term

amounted to accepting that Christ was two persons, the son of Mary and the Son of God, who were

united in an external way, and so, the former became a Christ, and his mother could only be called

Christotokos. ...."[pp. x-xii.].

2. ST. CYRIL OF ALEXANDRIA.

AGAINST THOSE WHO ARE UNWILLING TO CONFESS THAT THE HOLY VIRGIN IS THEOTOKOS.


" CHRIST AS MAN
"4. CHRIST IS NOT A MERE MAN AS THE SAINTS. The same is true of those things, which are proper

to humanity, when the divine Scripture attributes these things to God. For, although the sufferings of

the Savior are never understood to apply to the nature of the divinity and were completely the sufferings

of the body, yet because the divinity is joined to the body by an inseparable union, the Apostle says, "if

they had know they would not have crucified the Lord of glory"
(1 Cor. 2:8). Do you see how, on

account of the union, the word of the apostolic teaching makes a common confession of Christ? For

Jesus was not a mere man prior to the communion and union of God with him, but the same Logos, having

come into the blessed Virgin herself, too to himself his own temple from the essence of the Virgin. He

went forth from her as a man and was seen to be a man externally, although internally, he existed truly

as God. Therefore, after his birth, he preserved the virginity of his mother, although this is not true of

any of the saints. The saints were by nature human beings and so they underwent an equally human \

birth. But, because He was God by nature, when this last time he also took the human condition, he

revealed the birth from the Virgin as different from all other births. Therefore, it is right and just that

the blessed one should be called Theotokos and Virgin Mother. For Jesus, who was born of her, was not

a mere man." [pp. 9-11.].

"CHRIST IS GOD AND MAN FROM HIS BIRTH

"9. CHRIST WAS BORN GOD AND MAN AND THUS THE VIRGIN IS BOTH CHRISTOTOKOS AND

THEOTOKOS. But, in case they say that the indwelling is a union not in the Virgin, but after the

birth from her had taken place, bring and let us examine this saying as well. Is it because of this

sort of indwelling that the anointing is applied to the person of the Logos? They will say that because

the man existed together with and is united (understood in their sense) to the Logos, it is necessary

to say that He was anointed with the union. For the prophet and also the Apostle spoke of God the

Logos as God and openly attributed to him the anointing. If, then, because of the union and the

coexistence with the man, the saints attach to the Logos what is proper to a man, they should in any

case confess that this anointing took place after the union. Now, if he were anointed after the union

and they do not want to speak of the union before the Virgin delivered, they should no longer call the

Virgin Christotokos. For if she is called Christotokos, she must also be Theotokos (God-bearer), and if

she is not Theotokos, neither is she Christotokos. But if the anointing is after the union, and it is for

this reason that it is mentioned in reference to the person of the Logos, and if they say that the union

took place after the birth from the Virgin, then she shall no longer be found to be Christotokos. On the

other hand, if she is Christotokos, then she is also Theotokos. For, since the anointing cannot be

conceived before the union, if the Virgin is Christotokos, because the union took place in her, she no

longer gave birth to a man, as they say, but to one united with the Logos, and she would justly be

called Theotokos. That is the case, of course, if, as has been said, the union was a true one and not,

as they say, according to that in the saints. We say that it is not possible to speak of a true union after

the birth, but we know Christ not as a man united to God,but as God assuming the human realities, that

is, the body and the soul and the mind, and as God perfectly united in the holy Virgin without sin.

Therefore, if you hear Christ called a man, do not forget that he has become God as well. Blessed Paul

perceived this and preached him sometimes as from the seed of David, sometimes as God, "for

remember Jesus Christ, who has been raised from the dead and is from the seed of David"
(2 Tim. 2:8).

And again, "God raised the Lord and will also raise us through his power" (1 Cor. 6:14). DO you hear

how the one, who is from the seed of David and has been raised from the dead, is preached so

clearly?" [pp. 21-23].

"THE TERM "THEOTOKOS" AND CHRIST'S DIVINITY"

23. CHRIST'S LORDSHIP IN THE BIBLE AND THE TITLE "THEOTOKOS." If they insist on saying,

"where the Virgin is called Theotokos in the Scripture," let them clearly hear the angel proclaiming this

piece of good news to the shepherd and saying: "For today to you a Savior is born, who is Christ the

Lord" (
Luke 2:11). He does not say, "Who shall be the Lord" or "in whom the Lord shall dwell" but

"who is Lord". .... [p. 59.].

Appendix [Protopresbyter George ...]


The Crucified Lord of Glory, God born of the Virgin. ...


If Mary is the Mother of Christ, she is such because she is the Mother of God.

[p. 75.]


Jesus Christ, yesterday Word, under the auspices of the Father, today Born of the Virgin, but the

same eternally. [p. 77.].


God bless you. Amen. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
 
Nov 23, 2011
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I am claiming that truth comes from the mind of God, as imparted through Holy Spirit. You claim that truth comes from the human mind, but only the human minds of your church leaders.

P.S. Truth does come from within myself. It comes from Holy Spirit who dwells within me! How Glad! I don't have to depend on someone else for my faith.

How can you have the Holy Spirit without being in the Church that Christ founded? See Ephesians 4.
All groups outside of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church were founded by men. The Orthodox Church alone (Chalcedonian) was founded by Jesus Christ Himself.
 
Nov 23, 2011
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This is plain false. Mary only had to be a virgin until she gave birth. once she gave birth she no longer needed to remain a virgin. If nothing else she was obligated to "consummate" her marriage with her husband. Else she was never married.

As for Mary's holiness. who claimed she was holy? if she was holy she had no need of a savior. Yet she herself calls Christ her savior. One only needs a savior when they need saved.

Again. The belief iun the :mother of God" "sinlessness of mary" is holding her equal to Christ. and a God. for only God can birth God. And only God is sinless.

Jesus made this claim himself!

So you stand in judgment of other people's sins? We are not commanded by Scripture to look for Mary's sins. If we are not commanded to do that, we should not do that, lest we offend God. We are commanded only to confess our own sins James 5:16. If you don't want to believe James 5:16, that is your mistake.
I know that I have sinned. I can't say anything about sin in the Virgin Mary. If she sinned, she was forgiven. That's all we all need to know.
 
Jun 24, 2010
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You obviously did not understand what the meaning of the text was. It was Jesus saying to us that the New Testament is much better than the Old and that the Christians who are "least in the Kingdom of God" are even greater than the greatest Old Testament Prophets (John the Baptist)... Is that so hard to get through your head?

The meaning of Jesus' words was not to exalt John the Baptist's birth but to state that the Old Testament believers are not nearly as great as the New Testament.

This does not mean that John was greater than Mary. "All generations shall call me (Mary) blessed" (Luke 1:48) and yet you want to denigrate her holiness... That's blasphemy. You are not obeying the Scriptures when you do not call her "blessed by all generations". "ALL GENERATIONS SHALL CALL ME (Mary) BLESSED", not John the Baptist.
Mary was blessed because she was chosen among (not above) women to bare the Son of God and to fulfill the prophecy of His coming. Having the Son of God in her womb certainly made her full of grace, for the Son came by grace and truth. My generation calls her blessed, as others do, because she was called by God to fulfill the will of God and bare His Son, who was born in the likeness of sinful flesh, but without sin, meaning the old sin nature that we all are conceived in being passed on by the man genetically through the sperm was not part of His conception.

Some can not accept the idea that God could allow His Son to be conceived in a woman who was a sinner, but is not His Son born in all of us through the new birth when we believe? We are the temple of God and we are to abstain from anything that would proceed from our heart that would defile that temple. But if we do sin, we have an advocate, so we can confess our sin, receive grace, be cleansed by the blood and go on by faith without Christ leaving or forsaking us.
 
Jun 24, 2010
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So you stand in judgment of other people's sins? We are not commanded by Scripture to look for Mary's sins. If we are not commanded to do that, we should not do that, lest we offend God. We are commanded only to confess our own sins James 5:16. If you don't want to believe James 5:16, that is your mistake.
I know that I have sinned. I can't say anything about sin in the Virgin Mary. If she sinned, she was forgiven. That's all we all need to know.
No one is trying to search out Mary's sins, but rather just substantiating that she is a sinners as all others are in the womb at conception when the sin nature is transferred to the ovum through the male sperm. Man will never be able to remove that sin nature in man genetically or through any other method such as cloning. The old sin nature in made resides in the members and cells of the body that make up the flesh and can not be eradicated until man receives a new glorified body that no longer has the sentence of death in its members.
 
Nov 23, 2011
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This is plain false. Mary only had to be a virgin until she gave birth. once she gave birth she no longer needed to remain a virgin. If nothing else she was obligated to "consummate" her marriage with her husband. Else she was never married.

As for Mary's holiness. who claimed she was holy? if she was holy she had no need of a savior. Yet she herself calls Christ her savior. One only needs a savior when they need saved.

Again. The belief iun the :mother of God" "sinlessness of mary" is holding her equal to Christ. and a God. for only God can birth God. And only God is sinless.

Jesus made this claim himself!


The holy angels are also sinless, and they are not God. If all of the angels sinned, they would all not be in heaven. 2/3 of the angels did not sin. Therefore, it is conceivable that someone other than God can be sinless. The sinlessness of Mary does not mean holding her equal to God. Sinlessness does not make a person into God.
As for Mary, she was conceived with ancestral sin, so Mary had that sin that needed salvation. Thus, as she said, she rejoiced in God her Saviour.
Only God can birth God is heresy. Mary birthed Jesus Christ, and Christ is God. If Mary is not the Mother of God, Christ is not God the Son.
Denying the title THEOTOKOS and Mother of God to the Ever-Virgin Mary is blatant heresy!
 
Nov 23, 2011
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No one is trying to search out Mary's sins, but rather just substantiating that she is a sinners as all others are in the womb at conception when the sin nature is transferred to the ovum through the male sperm. Man will never be able to remove that sin nature in man genetically or through any other method such as cloning. The old sin nature in made resides in the members and cells of the body that make up the flesh and can not be eradicated until man receives a new glorified body that no longer has the sentence of death in its members.

That is not so. The sin nature is not transferred to the ovum through the male sperm. That would make sex the cause of sin. That would mean something God has created, sex, is sinful. That is Gnosticism/Manichaeism/ Augustinianism. In some way we cannot know how, all human beings are born with the knowledge of good and evil, which is the ancestral sin. Man is born mortal, not with a sin nature.
A person sins not because of a sin nature, but because of misuse of free will. Ezekiel 18 says a soul is responsible because it sins, not because it inherits guilt (sin, the guilt of sin) from Adam through "original sin". That's an Augustinian error.
 
Jun 24, 2010
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No one is trying to search out Mary's sins, but rather just substantiating that she is a sinners as all others are in the womb at conception when the sin nature is transferred to the ovum through the male sperm. Man will never be able to remove that sin nature in man genetically or through any other method such as cloning. The old sin nature in made resides in the members and cells of the body that make up the flesh and can not be eradicated until man receives a new glorified body that no longer has the sentence of death in its members.
REPOST WITH CORRECTIONS

No one is trying to search out Mary's sins, but rather just substantiating that she is a sinner as all others are in the womb at conception, when the sin nature is transferred to the ovum through the male sperm. Man will never be able to remove that sin nature genetically or through any other method such as cloning. The old sin nature in man resides in the members and cells of the body that make up the flesh and can not be eradicated until man receives a new glorified body that no longer has the sentence of death in its members.
 

superdave5221

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
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The holy angels are also sinless, and they are not God. If all of the angels sinned, they would all not be in heaven. 2/3 of the angels did not sin.Therefore, it is conceivable that someone other than God can be sinless. The sinlessness of Mary does not mean holding her equal to God. Sinlessness does not make a person into God.
As for Mary, she was conceived with ancestral sin, so Mary had that sin that needed salvation. Thus, as she said, she rejoiced in God her Saviour.
Only God can birth God is heresy. Mary birthed Jesus Christ, and Christ is God. If Mary is not the Mother of God, Christ is not God the Son.
Denying the title THEOTOKOS and Mother of God to the Ever-Virgin Mary is blatant heresy!
So you are saying that someone other than Jesus Christ could have offered a perfect sacrifice on the cross for humanity. WHAT BLASPHEMY! This just shows the illegitemacy of your manmade doctrine. And the fact that you could compare angelic spirits to incarnate humans shows that you are blinded to reason by your false tradition.
 
S

surrender2God

Guest
God is the author and the Bible is the inspired word of God so therefore he would be the final authority on it. The only true interpretation of scripture comes through the Holy Ghost. Stop making excuses and trying to find fault in others--the only person you can change is the face you see in a mirror. Get alone with God, read the Bible daily, and allow God to show you what you need to do to make your walk closer to him and your life be a testimony to unbelievers.
 

superdave5221

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
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Let me clarify my previous posting above. Only an infinite God could save others infinitely. What your posting does show, however, is that those who you claim to be perfect are perfect under the law, and could thus save themselves. You are saying that there is another way into heaven then Jesus Christ, and that those supposedly perfect people could save themselves.