who are the two witnesses in revalation

[Shilo]

The 2 wittneses House of Judah and House of Israel. Elijah" in Hebrew actually means "My God is YHVH all believers in Yeshua and YHVH will be what Elijah means.

15The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

16Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these? 19Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

This is where God has joined them and we find this with Elijah

I KINGS 17:10 So he arose and went to Zarephath. And when he came to the gate of the city, behold, the widow woman was there gathering of sticks: and he called to her, and said, Fetch me, I pray thee, a little water in a vessel, that I may drink. 11 And as she was going to fetch it, he called to her, and said, Bring me, I pray thee, a morsel of bread in thine hand. 12 And she said, As the LORD thy God liveth, I have not a cake, but an handful of meal in a barrel, and a little oil in a cruse: and, behold, I am gathering two sticks, that I may go in and dress it for me and my son, that we may eat it, and die.

John the Baptist a type of Elijah had his head cut off by a type of antichrist.
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years Rev 20:4

The women Israel is given wings to fly into the wilderness where she is nourished for 3 1/2 years. rev 12:14. Now people believe this is more then just one women. so could Elijah be more then one person.

Elijah was also nourished in the wilderness

I KINGS 17:2 Then the word of the LORD came to him, saying, 3 "Get away from here and turn eastward, and hide by the Brook Cherith, which flows into the Jordan. 4 And it will be that you shall drink from the brook, and I have commanded the ravens to feed you there." 5 So he went and did according to the word of the LORD, for he went and stayed by the Brook Cherith, which flows into the Jordan. 6 The ravens brought him bread and meat in the morning, and bread and meat in the evening; and he drank from the brook.

Then God had Elijah show himself to the antichrist

I KINGS 18:1 And it came to pass after many days that the word of the LORD came to Elijah, in the third year, saying, "Go, present yourself to Ahab, and I will send rain on the earth." 2 So Elijah went to present himself to Ahab; and there was a severe famine in Samaria.

Elijah's time for all this was 3 1/2 years

There is only one rapture

Elijah -The people who love YHVH and Yeshua.

As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind 2kings 2:11

11 But after the three and a half days, (A)the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “(B)Come up here.” Then they (C)went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them Rev 11:11-12

A tenth of the city fell rev 11:13. a tenth is GOD's protion. this shows all gods people were raptured 7000 in the completion of mans rule on earth it is now the 7000 years from creation

 

[midwestbob]

I like this and would like to add to it if you don't mind.

Notice here that you have the two candles as two churches, namely the Jews and the Gentile.

I would take it a bit further.

Zec 4:2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
Zec 4:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
Zec 4:4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
Zec 4:5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

Notice here that the two olive trees are the word of God by the Spirit.

Zec 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
Zec 4:13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Zec 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

So they are Gods two anointed ones before the whole earth. these two anointed ones witness of the Lord.

So putting this together with your explanation. we have two churches that bare witness of God. the Jewish church and the Christian church .

What bares record of these two churches?

The Old testament is about God through the Jewish faith, and the New Testament is about the Christian Faith. which really are two views of the one faith.

Thus I believe that the two witnesses are the Old and New Testament.

Hermeneutics is the science of interpretation, especially of the Scriptures. The branch of theology that deals with biblical exegesis.Hermeneutics has some excellent, time-tested rules. Among them is the rule of "scriptural adjacency." That rule states: When you read something you don't understand, first study the surrounding text, then the chapter, then the book in which that chapter appears, then the testament that contains that book, and finally, relate the verse to the whole Bible. That is one of the rules, and it's a very good one. In other words ...
Why go to the Old Testament for definitions of New Testament terms when there are New Testament definitions that fit perfectly?

I can’t give a good reason to go to the Old Testament to get definitions for New testament terms when the New Testament gives us a definition for the term.. But your example does show that doing so could lead one to the wrong conclusion.

Candlesticks and olive trees are used figuratively in Zec 4, but the figures within that chapter were defined for us as things that existed during Zechariah's time (the Jewish leader Zerubbabel being one of them). So on the basis of the definitions in Zec 4, could Zerubbabel and "the two anointed ones" be the Two Witnesses of Rev11? Not very likely since he died about 2500 years ago. We see no end-time reference to a personage like Zerubbabel in the New Testament, and furthermore Revelation does not call the two witnesses of the Christian Era "anointed ones."

So should we take the definition God’s inspired word gives us and build on it with man’s reasoning until candlesticks and olive trees become the New and Old Testaments or would we better served just to use the definition God’s inspired word actually gives by using the rule of Scriptural adjacency? Remember God’s word tells us candlesticks are churches (churches are people not buildings). God’s word also tells us Olive trees are Jews and Christians. Can you show us where God’s word tells us candlesticks or olive trees are the New and Old Testaments?

by the way during the dark ages the word of God was hidden for 1260 years and at the end in 1798 the bible was publicly burned in the streets of France and they worshipped the God of reason. this took place for 3 and a half years. interesting that those historical dates match perfectly to the two time periods given in rev 11.

While it is true that there are 1260 years between 538 and 1798 we cannot say those verses were fulfilled during those years unless the events described in the prophecy were actually fulfilled. Consider the example about the bible you used, and let's compare it to Rev11:8 and see how it actually compares
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Did the dead bodies of the two witnesess (old and New Testaments) lie in the streets of Jerusalem (not France)?

How can we say the word of God was hidden between 538 and 1798? It was during those years that Tyndale translated the New Testament. And let’s not forget the Geneva Bible or the KJV. Couple the fact that the Word was now being translated into a language many understood and was being produced on printing presses the Word was being spread through out Europe. Regardless of the law the Word spread through Europe at a rapid rate, the Word was far from hidden.

 

[midwestbob]

Can it be the Church? Yes, Can it be two, No, there is only one Church

Churches are people, olive trees tell us which ones Jews and Christians . God has a people, yes. 2 different peoples but still members of the same body, those elect that are enemies of the gospel and those that are believers of the gospel. Remember we were told not to be wise in our own conceits, concerning the Jews..
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

 

[nath1234]

Nath, there are alot of different opinions on here, so it is basically a guessing game for the most part. But we know by Revelation 11 that they are two individuals that are killed after they do what YHVH has them do, and that they are raised up after 3 1/2 days. One thing is scripture gives no absolute on who they are. I would have to say it can't be the church, or two houses of Israel, or you would have thousands of bodies left laying in the street for 3 1/2 days. It doesn't give any indication of this kind of mass death, especially since Rev. refers to the majority of the saints being beheaded. But over all it's anyone's best guess. Shalom

I completly agree with you it must be 2 prophets (single prophets)

I also think they will be from Israel because the only prophets i know of who have turned water into blood or had fire come out from there mouths (well not exactly but one called down fire from heven) or to stop up the hevens have all been from Israel and i have never met a christian prophet who is able to do any of these

so i am convinced they will be from Israel

i also thought mpaper345 had a good post

there are also many examples of two witness in the old ie ,lot ,Jerico saving rahab which would be a interesting study to do.


as for the elijah enoch moses thing i certianly would not rule it out however

with the first coming of Jesus the Israelites new elijah must come first and indeed elijah did come and elijah was the prophet John at least thats what i recall reading if anyone asks ill have to look it up

thanks for your posts its a honour be able to talk to somone who is from Israel and hear thier opinions

 

[nath1234]

hi everyone

thank you all for posting who your opinions on the two witnesses

its great to see we have a wide varity of different ideas

 

[peterT]

Two houses maybe
Two folds yes
12 tribes yes.
Two different people, I don’t think so.
One God.
One blood.
One spirit.
One baptism.
One blood all nations of men.
This is my usual answer when someone says we are not the elect of God but the Jews are. This was my answer last night my thoughts yesterday. But after some pray in the morning I have a new thought paten.

Maybe there are two people.

One that has faith that he is a Jew by faith the elect of God, and the text is speaking to him.

And one that has not faith that he is a Jew by faith and is not the elect of God, and the text is not speaking to him.

We operate according to are faith and whatever is not of faith is a sin.

If you don’t think God is thinking about you when he says
24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh
be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
And if you don’t think God is talking about you when he says.
24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew
great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they
shall deceive the very elect.
And if you don’t think God is coming for you when he says
24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and
they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one
end of heaven to the other.
Then maybe he’s NOT thinking talking about you after all.
According to your faith be it don unto you.


Some of us have faith that God through the Bible is talking to us
And that when it says
Romans 2 28 For he is NOT a JEW, which is one OUTEARDLY- 29 But he IS a JEW, which is one INWARDLY.

That means us Christians are Gods Jews or apparently some of us Christians but apparently not all.

The two end time witnesses are of the household of faith.

 

[Avinu]

Anyone who has Yeshua in their heart is of the elect of YHVH, as for the two witnesses, scripture makes it clear they will be two individuals, one thing is it doesn't matter if they are hebrew or of gentile origin. What matters is they will be of Messiah, at that's the ONLY thing that matters. Shalom

 

[Laodicea]

We must remember that Revelation 11 about the 2 witnesses is symbolic so the 2 witnesses are also symbolic not literal witnesses, that is why I agree with gotime in that the 2 witnesses are symbolic of the old and new testament.

 

[paul241159]

What was the question

 

[Avinu]

What is the evidence that the two witnesses are symbolic in Rev. 11 Laodicea?

 

[2knowhim]

[/b]

Churches are people, olive trees tell us which ones Jews and Christians . God has a people, yes. 2 different peoples but still members of the same body, those elect that are enemies of the gospel and those that are believers of the gospel. Remember we were told not to be wise in our own conceits, concerning the Jews..
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

I'm Sorry Midwestbob,

I missed your post, Rom. 11:28 Yes, I agree. I quess what I had more in mind was this
when I posted:

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (natural seed)

Blessings

 

[Laodicea]

What is the evidence that the two witnesses are symbolic in Rev. 11 Laodicea?

Revelation 11:3-4
(3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
(4) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Verse 4 tells us who the two witnesses are, so is that symbolic or literal

 

[Avinu]

Revelation 11:3-4
(3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
(4) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Verse 4 tells us who the two witnesses are, so is that symbolic or litera

I believe brother, first it shows they are literal and then describes what they are. Like when Yeshua says for us to be a light in the world. Same thing with them, 1st they are two olive trees showing that they are of the body of Israel as we all are, and they are two lights standing before the God of the earth. As we are lights in this world to the lost.

 

[Avinu]

Also Laodicea, why would YHVH go through all the trouble of such detailed description of them prophecying for 1260 days WEARING sackloth if they weren't literal? Shalom

 

[Laodicea]

Also Laodicea, why would YHVH go through all the trouble of such detailed description of them prophecying for 1260 days WEARING sackloth if they weren't literal? Shalom

Brother keep an open mind and think of the possibility that is symbolic.
Clothed in sackcloth is symbolic of mourning look at what happens during the 1260 years
Daniel 7:25
(25) And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

 

[2knowhim]

Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.


Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.



Joh 11:35 Jesus wept.

 

[Avinu]

Brother keep an open mind and think of the possibility that is symbolic.
Clothed in sackcloth is symbolic of mourning look at what happens during the 1260 years

You're right it is mourning because of the how great the death all around will be. Here's another question for you, if it's symbolic, then why is symbolism doing something for 1260?

 

[midwestbob]

What is the evidence that the two witnesses are symbolic in Rev. 11 Laodicea?

In prophecy the use of symbolic are figurative language is used to describe literal events. It’s pretty clear that the witnesses won’t literally be candlesticks and olive trees. As we can see from Rev1:20 God uses the symbolic term candlesticks to represent churches. The olive trees represent Jews and Christians(Ronans11). If we would use this approach and apply the definitions the unchanging God/Word gives for these symbolic or figurative terms consistently in prophecy, where symbolic or figurative language is used we could gain a better understanding of prophecy. Remember churches aren’t buildings, but people, so in this case the people that are the witnesses would be Jews and Christians. But instead as this thread has shown few people use the definition the unchanging God/Word provides. Maybe that explains why there are so many different views when it comes to eschatology.

 

[peterT]

Anyone who has Yeshua in their heart is of the elect of YHVH, as for the two witnesses, scripture makes it clear they will be two individuals, one thing is it doesn't matter if they are hebrew or of gentile origin. What matters is they will be of Messiah, at that's the ONLY thing that matters. Shalom

Amen Shalom Amen

 

[Laodicea]

In prophecy the use of symbolic are figurative language is used to describe literal events. It’s pretty clear that the witnesses won’t literally be candlesticks and olive trees. As we can see from Rev1:20 God uses the symbolic term candlesticks to represent churches. The olive trees represent Jews and Christians(Ronans11). If we would use this approach and apply the definitions the unchanging God/Word gives for these symbolic or figurative terms consistently in prophecy, where symbolic or figurative language is used we could gain a better understanding of prophecy. Remember churches aren’t buildings, but people, so in this case the people that are the witnesses would be Jews and Christians. But instead as this thread has shown few people use the definition the unchanging God/Word provides. Maybe that explains why there are so many different views when it comes to eschatology.

Good explanation of symbolic language