RAPTURE, PRE OR POST?

AnandaHya · Feb 27, 2012

You imply that just because Jesus did not read the WHOLE chapter that portions of the prophecy did not apply. Its called cherry picking.

For example lets look at Isaiah 61 and take out text and examine them and see if you think they apply to people today even though JESUS did not READ them in Luke 4

Isaiah 61
6 But you shall be named the priests of the Lord,
They shall call you the servants of our God.
You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles,
And in their glory you shall boast.
7 Instead of your shame you shall have double honor,
And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion.
Therefore in their land they shall possess double;
Everlasting joy shall be theirs.
8 “For I, the Lord, love justice;
I hate robbery for burnt offering;
I will direct their work in truth,
And will make with them an everlasting covenant.

Now do you imply that because Jesus did not read verse 6 that people are NOT priests of the Lord?

what about verse 8, Has God made with us an everlasting covenant or do you believe that is in the future as well?

wait are you sure? cuz you know Jesus didn't read those verses, maybe its for the future too...

I would remind you of these verses:

Revelation 1:5-7
New King James Version (NKJV)
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.

To Him who loved us and washed[a] us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

mmm wonder if any one else notices the past tense used here: "has made us kings and priests to His God and Father" .....

AnandaHya · Feb 27, 2012

Again people want to make Isaiah 62 be about an EARTHLY Jerusalem, but if you read it without the preconceived notions it would be more logically to see that it refers to the NEW Jerusalem that descends from Heaven in Revelation 21

2 Then I, John,[a] saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

Isaiah 62
62 For Zion’s sake I will not hold My peace,
And for Jerusalem’s sake I will not rest,
Until her righteousness goes forth as brightness,
And her salvation as a lamp that burns.
2 The Gentiles shall see your righteousness,
And all kings your glory.
You shall be called by a new name,
Which the mouth of the Lord will name.
3 You shall also be a crown of glory
In the hand of the Lord,
And a royal diadem
In the hand of your God.
4 You shall no longer be termed Forsaken,
Nor shall your land any more be termed Desolate;
But you shall be called Hephzibah,[a] and your land Beulah
For the Lord delights in you,
And your land shall be married.
5 For as a young man marries a virgin,
So shall your sons marry you;
And as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride,
So shall your God rejoice over you.

Isaiah 62:4 Hephizibah Literally My Delight Is in Her
Isaiah 62:4 Beulah Literally Married

at least its makes more sense to me...

Grandpa · Feb 28, 2012

AnandaHya said:

Doing well, and You?

I would like a cup of tea. That sounds relaxing and peaceful.

peacefulbeliever · Feb 28, 2012

"this generation" does not mean those people that were there. The highlighted definition below is what is meant because these things were written to Israel (Jews) Yes, those things prophesied by Jesus will occur but they do not pertain to the church, the body of Christ. If all those things have occurred what is Revelation regarding?

In reference to the question I asked concerning Isaiah 61:2. My questioned just concerned v2 where in Luke 4:18-21 Jesus read the following from Isaiah 61:1&2 -
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book. . . . This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Now if you compare it with Isaiah 61:2 you'll notice it says - To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God. . . Jesus never read the last eight words. Jesus couldn't read the rest because "the day of vengeance of our God" has not yet come and therefore not "fulfilled". The day of vengeance of our God will be fullfilled with the prophecy of Revelation when Christ will return as king of kings and lord of lords. Jesus rightly divided the word of God just as we are told to do in 2 Timothy 2:15. There is a time span between the acceptable year of the Lord and the day of vengeance of our God which contains the day of Pentecost until the time the Lord Jesus Christ will come again. This time span is the period of Grace which was kept secret from the foundation of the world until it was revealed to Paul. (Colossians 1:26,27; 1 Cor. 2:7,8; 1 Peter 1:10,11)
And I never meant the whole chapter of anything - just that certain verse.

In Christ. . . .

peterT · Feb 28, 2012

peacefulbeliever said:

Rubbish you are just making that up, thats not in the Bible

Gods speaking to us Christians, because we are Gods Jews.

If you think God is speaking to the Jews of old and not us Christians it’s because you have no faith in God’s word.

We are God's people; we are the sheep of his pasture.

The Jews of old there branches were broken off, but can be grafted back in again.

Jesus is the vine and we Christians are grafted in to that vine, and the Jews of old can be grafted in to that vine too.

There is only one people not two because, God made us one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth

There is only one people not two because, CIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING

There is only one people not two because, he is NOT a Jew, which is one outwardly, But HE IS a Jew, which is one inwardly.

There is only one people not two because, by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body whether we be Jews or Gentiles

There is only one people not two because, there is no respect of persons with God.

There is only one people not two because, we all eat the same spiritual meat; and all drink the same spiritual drink:

This two different people came about from the pre-tribulation believing Christian, so they didn’t have to be the ones that go through the tribulation.

1 Corin10 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink:
1 corinthians 7:19 CIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING
Romans Chapter 2 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Romans 2:11For there is no respect of persons with God.
Acts 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

iamsoandso · Feb 28, 2012

if god looked at the earth and all man were dead in their sins,and so it was the will of god to sen you an "redeemer",to pay the price of you,,,,,how then did he not judge you?,,,,,,,,,and if at the cross the blood of the Christ "raised you from the dead",,,,,,how are you not resurrected with the lord?,,,,,in Adam through sin all his house was punished,,,,,,,and rehab because she believed all her house was saved,,,,,,,,all of the house of the Hebrew were sent to bondage,,,,,,,,,all of house of Egypt were punished for the,,the father their Pharaoh,,,,was the promise made to Abraham alone or to his whole house???????"thy seed"????????their is only one who is come into the earth who fulfilled the law,,"Christ",,,,and one would be prudent to become his bride,,for he is the only one who fulfilled the law,he is the only one who is "saved by his own works,of fulfilling the law",,,,only his name is written in the book of life,,and his bride,,,,,,,,,and their children,,,,,,,,these are the only ones who are "saved by the bride groom",,,,,,,,,men say "no",,,but i tell you you all have fell short of the glory of god,,,in sin,,,,,,,,,,and you may marry a wife and her name is then your sir-name but both you and her will Parrish,,,for there is none other name by witch men are saved,,,,,,,,,"yoshuah",,,,,,,the son of god,,,,come to the marriage,,,become the bride,,,,if you marry the lord and then you are called after him,,,then also your name is in the book of life,,,yes your husbands name is the only name written in the book of life,,,,,,let him write his name in your forehead,,,,he is the son of god,,,,,,,he is called after his fathers name,,,you must have the fathers name written in your forehead,,,,,,,,,,paint the blood of the lamb above your door post,,,the wrath of god will only pass over this one household,,,,,,,,,raptured,,,,at the cross,,,,i was born on the cross at calvery,,before that i was dead and could not stand before the father,,and mine fiance,,took me to ask his father for me and he agreed,,,i do not come in mine own name but the name of mine husband,,,,and he doth not suffer me to speak,,,he said take the bread and set it here, and i do,, and the water, and i pour it,,,,,, you are at the end of the "great tribulation",,,,,,you have been slain by the millions,,,,,you have been "left behind" if you came into the earth from the day of the cross and have not seen the truth,,,,many of the dead saints were raised from the grave at the cross and were witnessed by many,,,,,,and i came after"i could not proceed those beheaded for the testimony",,,,,,,pre or post,,,,,,,,,,or way pre,,,,,,,,back at the cross,,,,,,,,,,,,,two options will slay you,,,only one will bring you to the household of my husband,,,,,,,,,,,,,

iamsoandso · Feb 28, 2012

only the lord is fulfilled the law,,,,he alone is spared in his works of his hands,,,,,,,,you are not saved by your works,,,,,,you are save in the marriage,,,,,,you became "of his house",,,,,,,,,,,the grace of god,,,,,,,,,,the son hath brought you before the father,,by his works,according to the law,,,,,,,,,,,,he wrote his name on you,,,,"you belong to him",,,,,,,"he is your lord',,,,,,,not 'your works",,,,,,your husbands works",,,,,,,,,by no other name is it given "that men are saved",,,,,,,,,,,,,in the "marriage",,,,,,,,,,,,your name is the same and is become the name of the Christ,,,,,,,,,no other house will stand,,,,,,,,,,,,and it is "pre" way back at the cross,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

iamsoandso · Feb 28, 2012

the "tribulation started the next day after the cross",,,,,,,,and is now coming to a close,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

peterT · Feb 28, 2012

iamsoandso said:

You seem to be doing pretty well if the great tribulation is here, and some of us are abundantly prospering still, in this so-called great tribulation.

Rv12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man [child].

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Rv13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.

The great Tribulation is for 3 ½ years not 2000 years +

Grandpa · Feb 28, 2012

peterT said:

Read Matthew 24. It is about the great tribulation. After Jesus explains what it is He says this;

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Jesus own words.

I'll have to go with Jesus' words and iamsoandso testimony on this one.

They seem to line up with each other.

The great tribulation is at Hand. The Kingdom of God is at Hand.

Right Now.

AnandaHya · Feb 28, 2012

peacefulbeliever said:

yes and that is called cherry picking. I showed you that other parts of the chapter does apply to Christians TODAY and were not read by Jesus so your logic does not hold up that because Jesus closed the book you can insert a time gap. In addition the verses in Matthew do not line up with your theology.

those verse you quote out of context do not mean what you want them to mean The SECRET is NOT "this time span" or "period of Grace" but the BIRTH of JESUS CHRIST the incarnated God and messiah of the world.

but I'll look at them again anyways because I like reading the Bible

Hey notice the words "this mystery....which IS CHRIST IN YOU"

Colossians 1:26,27

24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which[d] is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. 29 To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily.

; 1 Cor. 2:7,8;

6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”[c]
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy[d] Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?”[e] But we have the mind of Christ.

so what is the mystery? that Jesus Christ was the Messiah and died for the remission of sins.that He sent forth His Holy Spirit that allows us to cry forth Abba, Father. it is foolishness to the world but it is our hope and salvation.

1 Peter 1:10,11
10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.

what is the mystery in these verses? is it a temporally time period or is it prophecies concerning "the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow" ?

sorry still don't see dispentional theory or doctrine in any of those verses...

sorry I forgot to answer this question... "If all those things have occurred what is Revelation regarding? "

Revelation was written before all the things were fulfilled it was written BEFORE the destruction of the temple. the last three chapters are still in the process of being fulfilled.

we are witnessing these verses happen before our eyes:

Revelation 20
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.

peterT · Feb 28, 2012

Grandpa said:

So where is the mark of the beast in the right hands and the foreheads that allows people to buy and sell for 42 months, if this is great tribulation?

sunshine_debbie · Feb 28, 2012

Saddle up your horses

Started out this morning in the usual way
Chasing thoughts inside my head of all I had to do today
Another time around the circle try to make it better than the last

I opened up the Bible and I read about me
Said I'd been a prisoner and God's grace had set me free
And somewhere between the pages it hit me like a lightning bolt
I saw a big frontier in front of me and I heard somebody say "let's go"!

CHORUS
Saddle up your horses we've got a trail to blaze
Through the wild blue yonder of God's amazing grace
Let's follow our leader into the glorious unknown
This is a life like no other - this is The Great Adventure

Come on get ready for the ride of your life
Gonna leave long faced religion in a cloud of dust behind
And discover all the new horizons just waiting to be explored
This is what we were created for

(Chorus)

BRIDGE
We'll travel over, over mountains so high
We'll go through valleys below
Still through it all we'll find that
This is the greatest journey that the human heart will ever see
The love of God will take us far beyond our wildest dreams

Yeah... oh saddle up your horses... come on get ready to ride

(Steven Curtis Chapman)

peacefulbeliever · Feb 28, 2012

peterT said:

If that is what you believe - Okay.

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28 Those that have been baptized into Christ and have put on Christ; they are the body of Christ.

Okay

Only those who have been baptized into Christ are his sheep and his sheep hear his voice.

I never said that Jews could not be born again so I really don't know what you are getting at here.

Yes, all those that are born again are one body, Jew, Gentile, bond, free doesn't matter, and yes then circumcision availeth nothing, and yes, there is no respecter of persons with God.

In Christ. . . .

peterT · Feb 29, 2012

peacefulbeliever said:

I never said you did.

I was under the imprecation By some of you posts, that you thought there were two peoples of God.

One, Jews that go through the tribulation, and I think you think that they are the bride of Christ, yes?.

And the other people, Christians who don’t go through the tribulation, and I think you think that they are the body of Christ. yes?.

Correct me if I am wrong

Grandpa · Feb 29, 2012

peterT said:

Who says they aren't there right now?

Who says you don't have the seal of God in your forehead right now?

I don't really know the answer...

loveme1 · Feb 29, 2012

Tribulation leads into Great Tribulation?

peacefulbeliever · Feb 29, 2012

peterT said:

I believe ALL born again believers will be gathered together before the tribulation, the wrath of God, or the day of vengeance of our God; whichever you want to call it. All others will be in the resurrection of the just and the unjust - the just being those that believed God but were not born again because the new birth wasn't available until Pentecost - the unjust being the unbelievers.
In Christ. . . . .

peterT · Feb 29, 2012

peacefulbeliever said:

the bit in red, So what’s that, the first resurrection or the second resurrection?

iamsoandso · Feb 29, 2012

Matt.chap. 24,,and Luke 21,,,,,,,look at the wording "for my names sake"(matt. 24;9),,,,,(luke 21;12)"for my names sake",,,,,"the bride" his wife,she is married to Christ at the wedding,,,,,he is speaking of "his bride',,,,,the ones who"profess he is the Christ",,,,,,"no disrespect meant by me in what i am saying",,,,there are Jews who do not believe in Christ,,,they are waiting for another Christ to come,,,,and also Christians who say they are christian who do not stay in the concepts of Christianity,,,,,,,,,, but Christ said "for my names sake",,,, they are taken o the synagogs and before kings,,,,,,,,,,,,becouse they are "believing Christians",,,,who profess his name,,,,,,,,,,and they are put to death,,,,,,,,,,no other religion nor form of it fits into this statement made by Christ,,,,they suffer this "for his names sake",,,,,,,,,

RAPTURE, PRE OR POST?

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