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T
Another two verses to consider: 1st John 3:15 "Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that NO MURDERER HAS ETERNAL LIFE ABIDING IN HIM."
1st John 5:13 "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God THAT YOU MAY KNOW THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE."
Again, the contrast between the saved who will have eternal life and the lost who don't. John mentions nothing of the unsaved having eternal life in order to suffer somewhere forever.
I would also like to mention that the Bible is very clear that every human being will be raised at the last day to stand for judgment. The saved to life everlasting and the wicked to punishment and destruction. Again, I don't know in what manner and for what duration the destruction process will last. We are talking about a time when time will be no more, we will be in eternity.
Let us all look to Jesus for salvation from all of this. He is able to save to the uttermost and bestow immortality on His chosen ones. I disagree when you say if sinners are ultimnately destroyed, then they aren't truly punished or suffer loss. They will lose eternal communion with the triune God!!!! If that isn't punishment and loss, then I don't know what is.
God bless!!!!
Tom
1st John 5:13 "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God THAT YOU MAY KNOW THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE."
Again, the contrast between the saved who will have eternal life and the lost who don't. John mentions nothing of the unsaved having eternal life in order to suffer somewhere forever.
I would also like to mention that the Bible is very clear that every human being will be raised at the last day to stand for judgment. The saved to life everlasting and the wicked to punishment and destruction. Again, I don't know in what manner and for what duration the destruction process will last. We are talking about a time when time will be no more, we will be in eternity.
Let us all look to Jesus for salvation from all of this. He is able to save to the uttermost and bestow immortality on His chosen ones. I disagree when you say if sinners are ultimnately destroyed, then they aren't truly punished or suffer loss. They will lose eternal communion with the triune God!!!! If that isn't punishment and loss, then I don't know what is.
God bless!!!!
Tom
G
----
Half.
This half explains . When someone makes a comment about any topic, speak with scripture from the Word backing but--and, LoveisLaw, that was well said , our purpose is NOT conversión of fellow christian chat believers. But, and I understand not everyone can back their words in posts in lovely- said, erudite form, and, meaning. That is not something to worry about , God gives us our words .
Besides trying our best to back our thought with scripture proof, we need also speak in Love.
Do you really THINK you are not unaccountable for what you say to a fellow believer of condemning them or chadtising them crassly, brashly, brazenly, hurtfully, oppressively ?
Yes, it is , just as bad, if what you say causes them to leave christian chat and, worse yet, let's just say, the left person was just starting to get excited about Christ before you told them, 'They were going to Hell for something they were doing (and, yes, not on this thread, but I have heard that judgment made in other c.c. threads.'
All I am saying , and, greatbigblue, and, yoTommybo, both you said things well, diplomatically, and, what Jesus would do in handling disagreement. I apologize to, 'respectfully disagreeing' wording was kosher, and, mature, Tommyyobo .
But, Yeah, just please, and, God will reward you for it, but keep accusatory and judmentlism out of your thinking, UNLESS there is beyond shadow of doubt heinous great sin being said by a poster.
Righteously fulfilling your self is a painful thing for all to see, your righteous judgment MUST be said in Love, yes, God's Love. And, IF you can't say things 'that' way then do you think God wants you to say them?
'Hell ' is a VERY touchy subject and even tombotommy , greatlargeblue, reading your posts, although intelligent like tombo's eternal life and death comparison is good statement, are too controversial of thoughts for Hell for many to grasp.and, in this case, not grasping them makes them begin to think of a 'Hell' that is to their understanding.
All that is being said here is don't turn those statements of controversial things into spiteful, and, worse het, prideful retorts.
Best advice: Pray to Jesus before every thing you say, that way God can really get in there and let His Spirit through YOU say great Truth.
It's all about The Truth, peeps.
May God continue to bless the things you say with the law of Love firstly on your mind before having even put down one word.
Let's let others see who we are, that Christianity is a great religion, the one that is 'different' than all others in such a caring, understanding, appreciating, compassionate, blessing, giving, eternally fulfilling way
I am sorry if I stunted your all thinking and postings on this thread, but unless 'peace' can be at the center of your 'Hell,' it is not going to be something that pleases our Prince Of Peace.
And, isn't that why we are here on Earth , to glorify Him through all we say and do, and, I pray that is what I have done and am doing here on this thread right now.
Note: I would have totally left it at my harsh reproof before but God convicted me to get back and read the posts better and, although there are some things said accusatively, and, haughtily, overall, YOU all have discussed this so VERY controversial topic in Love
Half.
This half explains . When someone makes a comment about any topic, speak with scripture from the Word backing but--and, LoveisLaw, that was well said , our purpose is NOT conversión of fellow christian chat believers. But, and I understand not everyone can back their words in posts in lovely- said, erudite form, and, meaning. That is not something to worry about , God gives us our words .
Besides trying our best to back our thought with scripture proof, we need also speak in Love.
Do you really THINK you are not unaccountable for what you say to a fellow believer of condemning them or chadtising them crassly, brashly, brazenly, hurtfully, oppressively ?
Yes, it is , just as bad, if what you say causes them to leave christian chat and, worse yet, let's just say, the left person was just starting to get excited about Christ before you told them, 'They were going to Hell for something they were doing (and, yes, not on this thread, but I have heard that judgment made in other c.c. threads.'
All I am saying , and, greatbigblue, and, yoTommybo, both you said things well, diplomatically, and, what Jesus would do in handling disagreement. I apologize to, 'respectfully disagreeing' wording was kosher, and, mature, Tommyyobo .
But, Yeah, just please, and, God will reward you for it, but keep accusatory and judmentlism out of your thinking, UNLESS there is beyond shadow of doubt heinous great sin being said by a poster.
Righteously fulfilling your self is a painful thing for all to see, your righteous judgment MUST be said in Love, yes, God's Love. And, IF you can't say things 'that' way then do you think God wants you to say them?
'Hell ' is a VERY touchy subject and even tombotommy , greatlargeblue, reading your posts, although intelligent like tombo's eternal life and death comparison is good statement, are too controversial of thoughts for Hell for many to grasp.and, in this case, not grasping them makes them begin to think of a 'Hell' that is to their understanding.
All that is being said here is don't turn those statements of controversial things into spiteful, and, worse het, prideful retorts.
Best advice: Pray to Jesus before every thing you say, that way God can really get in there and let His Spirit through YOU say great Truth.
It's all about The Truth, peeps.
May God continue to bless the things you say with the law of Love firstly on your mind before having even put down one word.
Let's let others see who we are, that Christianity is a great religion, the one that is 'different' than all others in such a caring, understanding, appreciating, compassionate, blessing, giving, eternally fulfilling way
I am sorry if I stunted your all thinking and postings on this thread, but unless 'peace' can be at the center of your 'Hell,' it is not going to be something that pleases our Prince Of Peace.
And, isn't that why we are here on Earth , to glorify Him through all we say and do, and, I pray that is what I have done and am doing here on this thread right now.
Note: I would have totally left it at my harsh reproof before but God convicted me to get back and read the posts better and, although there are some things said accusatively, and, haughtily, overall, YOU all have discussed this so VERY controversial topic in Love
What part(s) do you want me to provide scripture, LoveHisLaw?
Iam truly speaking correction and reproof from scripture and 'all scripture' is good for that. Basically, I am asking all christians (believers in Christ) to be nicer to each other, use underlines , NOT CAPS, to not blankly shoot someone's thoughts down but to speak in Love , as the Father, our Father in Heaven,speaks down to us through our lives divine appointments and events that we go forth doing with faith, for better or worse believing, that He will get us through the hell of the situation with His overwelming Heavenly power of Holy Spirit working through us His truth.
God is Spirit and Truth, and, that is how we MUST worship, and that is how we will find understanding to alall things that complicate our faith, like Hell , like Heaven, like the constant Love of God flowing inside us all
If they are truly destroyed the way you claim, to cease to exist, then they don't know they suffer loss. Therefore they don't suffer, for they don't exist. So this is no punishment whatsoever. Because they don't know. So in this case I win either way, If I live for God, and go to heaven, I win. If I live any way I want to and enjoy all the worldly ways of the flesh, and then die in my sin, and cease to exist then I win. I may not have any reward, but I have no punishment, which I won't care, because I don't exist anymore.
I notice you won't touch Rev. 14:9-11, please try and explain this away.
Yah Bless. Shalom
I notice you won't touch Rev. 14:9-11, please try and explain this away.
Yah Bless. Shalom
T
Salvation doesn't depend on whether we want to go to heaven or hell. And I hope you're not saying that if you knew you would ultimately cease to exist, that you'd choose to follow the ways of the world and turn your back on God. When we are saved, we do God's will because He gives us His Spirit to help us. He makes us willing to follow Him joyfully, not out of a fear of torture.
No one was ever saved because of the threat of hell. Look at the evil that goes on in this world; murderers, rapists, thieves, etc. Many of these people know the traditional teaching of eternity in hell, yet they still choose to do evil and ignore it.
The Bible is clear that God chose us (the elect, the chosen) before he ever created this world. Salvation does not depend on a fear of hell.
I agree that those verses in Revelation ( a highly symbolic book) are difficult, and I would never try and explain them away. I seek to try and understand how they fit with all of the other clear teachings about the death and destruction of the wicked. The websites that I gave (if you care to check them out) give some views on what those verses mean. I'm not sure they are fully correct in their interpretation, but they do make some good points.
God bless!!!!
Tom
No one was ever saved because of the threat of hell. Look at the evil that goes on in this world; murderers, rapists, thieves, etc. Many of these people know the traditional teaching of eternity in hell, yet they still choose to do evil and ignore it.
The Bible is clear that God chose us (the elect, the chosen) before he ever created this world. Salvation does not depend on a fear of hell.
I agree that those verses in Revelation ( a highly symbolic book) are difficult, and I would never try and explain them away. I seek to try and understand how they fit with all of the other clear teachings about the death and destruction of the wicked. The websites that I gave (if you care to check them out) give some views on what those verses mean. I'm not sure they are fully correct in their interpretation, but they do make some good points.
God bless!!!!
Tom
No I wasn't saying that if I knew I would cease to exist, that I would live how ever I wanted to. And I agree, those who are truly followers of Yah do so because we love Him not out of fear of going to hell. Even though we don't agree on this matter, I sincerely respect your humbleness in our back and forth discussion and have enjoyed our debate. May we truly find all truth in Him and may YHVH bless you my friend. Shalom
T
God bless you too, my friend. I know that you too are only concerned with God's truth and that you are only seeking to follow His ways as closely as possible. That is what any discussion or debate should do, make us like the Bereans of old and search the scripture to see whether these things are true.
May God's love and peace in our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
Tom
May God's love and peace in our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
Tom
The Bereans never heard Christ preached from the scriptures until Paul preached to them. When they studied the scriptures before Paul came. they never perceived Christ in those scriptures they had and when Paul revealed Jesus Christ to them, they were amazed and went to search them over and over to see that those things concerning Christ were true and every time they did, more of them believed and were saved. That's what really happened with the Bereans because they were a more ready and noble mind to receive the word and were never skeptical of Paul's preaching as some have suggested by giving the wrong application.
C
If one does not accept Jesus, then how can He be their atonement? Seeing that the sacrifice of Jesus was the ONLY acceptable atonement to God. Under this universal salvation thing, it does not matter if I accept Jesus as my Savior or not, seeing that I automatically have salvation. I can do as I please, even blasphemy, even idolatry, and even mock the blood of Christ. I can accept the mark of the Beast to proclaim I have the seal of my god, Satan. I can bow to the Antichrist and call him christ. You see, it really does not matter. In God's plan, as is declared in this universal salvation, includes me, the willful unrepentant mocking sinner who does not want to follow God's will, but Satan's.
Understand, if that person has no atonement, then how is he to be reconciled to God? If two are in a heated argument, even to the point of not speaking to each other, does not one who seek the forgiveness of the other go and appease the other. If forgiveness is not offered by that party, then there is no reconciliation between them, and things remain the same.
So it is with the sacrifice of Jesus offered by the Father. If you do not accept that appeasement, then you have not accepted the covenant and things remain as they are, unreconciled.
Understand, if that person has no atonement, then how is he to be reconciled to God? If two are in a heated argument, even to the point of not speaking to each other, does not one who seek the forgiveness of the other go and appease the other. If forgiveness is not offered by that party, then there is no reconciliation between them, and things remain the same.
So it is with the sacrifice of Jesus offered by the Father. If you do not accept that appeasement, then you have not accepted the covenant and things remain as they are, unreconciled.
Have you ever heard of that old saying "they can't see passed the nose on their face"?
Many can only see Salvation in this physical, earthly, Fleshly Realm, they cannot see passed it.
Do you really think that God is not capable of saving someone after the heart stops beating?
All will receive The Salvation that can come only through the Son, whether here or after the death of the body.
T
The Bible in no way teaches universal salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28 "And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgement, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him."
Death will come and then the judgment. The unsaved will be punished and destoyed and the saved will go into the everlasting arms of the Lord in heaven!!!!
To say that all people will be saved really makes a mockery out of what Jesus did on the cross. It makes it totally useless and unnecessary. Only God's elect in Christ will inherit eternal life. Salvation is a free gift of God in Christ. Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else, for there is NO OTHER NAME under heaven given among men BY WHICH WE MUST BE SAVED." How can you say that God will save people after death??? He only provided one way; The Lord Jesus Christ!!!!
I know it is for your love for mankind that you are holding to this false teaching, but you really need to let go of it. The Bible does not support it in any way. And if you look beyond the Bible, you are lost for sure.
God bless!!!!
Tom
Death will come and then the judgment. The unsaved will be punished and destoyed and the saved will go into the everlasting arms of the Lord in heaven!!!!
To say that all people will be saved really makes a mockery out of what Jesus did on the cross. It makes it totally useless and unnecessary. Only God's elect in Christ will inherit eternal life. Salvation is a free gift of God in Christ. Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else, for there is NO OTHER NAME under heaven given among men BY WHICH WE MUST BE SAVED." How can you say that God will save people after death??? He only provided one way; The Lord Jesus Christ!!!!
I know it is for your love for mankind that you are holding to this false teaching, but you really need to let go of it. The Bible does not support it in any way. And if you look beyond the Bible, you are lost for sure.
God bless!!!!
Tom
The Bible teaches it in every line. You see Judgement as punishment and destruction of the person as a whole.
I see the Judgement as destruction of the Carnal mind that kept them from receiving Salvation.
I see the Judgement of God as Corrective and with Great Purpose, that God may Receive Glory,
Where is the Glory in Punishment for all Eternity for God?
Not to mention the fact that if this is so, then that would mean that Sin still remains and is not done away with, lest He punishes the one after He removes the sin, which would make the person innocent, and then tortured.
That is NOT The God of Grace that I have come to Know, God has Great Purpose for everything that He does.
For those who have eyes to see, this is a beautiful picture of what is seen beyond Jordan, "Death"
Jos 5:1 And it came to pass, when all the kings of the Amorites, which were on the side of Jordan westward, and all the kings of the Canaanites, which were by the sea, heard that the LORD had dried up the waters of Jordan from before the sons of Israel, until they were passed over, that their heart melted, neither was there spirit [ruach] in them any more, because of the sons of Israel.
Jos 5:2 At that time the LORD said unto Joshua, Make thee sharp knives, and circumcise again the sons of Israel the second time.
Jos 5:3 And Joshua made him sharp knives, and circumcised the sons of Israel at the hill of the foreskins.
Jos 5:4 And this is the cause why Joshua did circumcise: All the People that came out of Egypt, that were males, even all the men of war, died in the wilderness by the way, after they came out of Egypt.
Jos 5:5 Now all the People that came out were circumcised: but all the People that were born in the wilderness by the way as they came forth out of Egypt, them they had not circumcised.
Jos 5:6 For the sons of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the nation [generation] that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they hearkened not unto the voice of the LORD: unto whom the LORD sware that He would not shew them the land, which the LORD sware unto their fathers that He would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey.
Jos 5:7 And their sons, whom He raised up in their stead, them Joshua circumcised: for they were uncircumcised, because they had not circumcised them by the way.
Jos 5:8 And it came to pass, when they had done circumcising all the nation, that they abode [th to th Abid] in their places in the camp, till they were whole.
Jos 5:9 And the LORD said unto Joshua, This day have I rolled away the reproach of Egypt from off you. Wherefore the name of the place is called Gilgal [rolling] unto this day.
I see the Judgement as destruction of the Carnal mind that kept them from receiving Salvation.
I see the Judgement of God as Corrective and with Great Purpose, that God may Receive Glory,
Where is the Glory in Punishment for all Eternity for God?
Not to mention the fact that if this is so, then that would mean that Sin still remains and is not done away with, lest He punishes the one after He removes the sin, which would make the person innocent, and then tortured.
That is NOT The God of Grace that I have come to Know, God has Great Purpose for everything that He does.
For those who have eyes to see, this is a beautiful picture of what is seen beyond Jordan, "Death"
Jos 5:1 And it came to pass, when all the kings of the Amorites, which were on the side of Jordan westward, and all the kings of the Canaanites, which were by the sea, heard that the LORD had dried up the waters of Jordan from before the sons of Israel, until they were passed over, that their heart melted, neither was there spirit [ruach] in them any more, because of the sons of Israel.
Jos 5:2 At that time the LORD said unto Joshua, Make thee sharp knives, and circumcise again the sons of Israel the second time.
Jos 5:3 And Joshua made him sharp knives, and circumcised the sons of Israel at the hill of the foreskins.
Jos 5:4 And this is the cause why Joshua did circumcise: All the People that came out of Egypt, that were males, even all the men of war, died in the wilderness by the way, after they came out of Egypt.
Jos 5:5 Now all the People that came out were circumcised: but all the People that were born in the wilderness by the way as they came forth out of Egypt, them they had not circumcised.
Jos 5:6 For the sons of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the nation [generation] that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they hearkened not unto the voice of the LORD: unto whom the LORD sware that He would not shew them the land, which the LORD sware unto their fathers that He would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey.
Jos 5:7 And their sons, whom He raised up in their stead, them Joshua circumcised: for they were uncircumcised, because they had not circumcised them by the way.
Jos 5:8 And it came to pass, when they had done circumcising all the nation, that they abode [th to th Abid] in their places in the camp, till they were whole.
Jos 5:9 And the LORD said unto Joshua, This day have I rolled away the reproach of Egypt from off you. Wherefore the name of the place is called Gilgal [rolling] unto this day.
Im going to throw in my views now so fsten your seatbelts....
I looked up the definietion of TORMENT...it means mental anguish. Torture, means physical pain.
Also, the Second Death(hell) can also be looked at as the eternal separation from God.
Is Hell a place of physical pain? Are you tormented or tortured? They are 2 differnet things.
I looked up the definietion of TORMENT...it means mental anguish. Torture, means physical pain.
Also, the Second Death(hell) can also be looked at as the eternal separation from God.
Is Hell a place of physical pain? Are you tormented or tortured? They are 2 differnet things.
T
Tom,
Gehenna is not the name given for the valley outside of Israel it was called The Valley of the Son of Hinnom. Gehenna (Greek γέεννα
, Gehinnom (Rabbinical Hebrew: גהנום/גהנם) and Yiddish Gehinnam, are terms derived from this place. The term Gehenna refers to the place of Hell not to the physical place outside the Old City.I wanted to make that clarification so there was no obfuscation.
God bless,
T
I am struck by the contrast contrast that Jesus makes in the Bible between eternal life and death. Take for example John 10:27-28 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish,.....
Even the very popular verse in the Bible, John 3:16, is striking in it's contrast between eternal life and perishing. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life".
If humans have eternal life no matter what, why does Jesus constantly gives this contrast??? He could have easily said, if you believe on me I will let you live forever with me, but if you don't believe on me, you will live forever in a place of torment. But He never says this. The Church, down through the centuries, has always filtered all of these scores of verses through a few verses in Revelation instead of the other way around. God says in Ezekiel 18:32 "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn and live."
By following the traditional teaching of eternal torment in hell, all of these words lose their meaning. Death doesn't really mean death, perish doesn't really mean perish, destroy doesn't really mean destroy, etc.
As I've said in previous posts in this thread, if people would carefully go over all of the verese that pertain to this question, they will be struck by the contrast between life and death.
I hope I've helped show some of the evidence that brings me to my conclusions.
God bless!!!!
Tom
Even the very popular verse in the Bible, John 3:16, is striking in it's contrast between eternal life and perishing. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life".
If humans have eternal life no matter what, why does Jesus constantly gives this contrast??? He could have easily said, if you believe on me I will let you live forever with me, but if you don't believe on me, you will live forever in a place of torment. But He never says this. The Church, down through the centuries, has always filtered all of these scores of verses through a few verses in Revelation instead of the other way around. God says in Ezekiel 18:32 "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn and live."
By following the traditional teaching of eternal torment in hell, all of these words lose their meaning. Death doesn't really mean death, perish doesn't really mean perish, destroy doesn't really mean destroy, etc.
As I've said in previous posts in this thread, if people would carefully go over all of the verese that pertain to this question, they will be struck by the contrast between life and death.
I hope I've helped show some of the evidence that brings me to my conclusions.
God bless!!!!
Tom