Are the dead dead or do they keep on liveing?..............

[peacefulbeliever]

Soul sleepers really rob themselves of the peace of mind of knowing your loved ones are with the father.

Satan and his demons are alive......

Those that love God are dead I guess.

God will not leave his children dead in a grave....while satan and demons live. get real

The Devil and demons live? while Gods children are dead in a grave? I think not

I have loved ones that are dead and I have the peace of mind that they will be raised when Christ returns. I have the peace of mind that no matter how long they have been in the grave; they don't know - the next thing that they will know will be the resurrection.

Satan loves the teaching that the dead are alive now - that is how spritirualist make their money on bringing back the so-called dead for their loved ones.

Deut. 18:10-12 . . . .to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD. . . . .

Satan uses all the above based o n the counterfeit teaching of "the dead are alive now."

 

[krisbrian]

Satan loves the teaching that the dead are alive now -

Joh 11:26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Joh 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Mar 12:27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Jesus taught the dead are alive. Jesus's words supercede your doctrine.

 

[Laodicea]

Joh 11:26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Joh 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Mar 12:27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Jesus taught the dead are alive. Jesus's words supercede your doctrine.

You left a verse out
John 11:25-26
(25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
(26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

 

[Laodicea]

Soul sleepers really rob themselves of the peace of mind of knowing your loved ones are with the father.

Satan and his demons are alive......

Those that love God are dead I guess.

God will not leave his children dead in a grave....while satan and demons live. get real

The Devil and demons live? while Gods children are dead in a grave? I think not

1 Corinthians 15:17-23
(17) And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
(18) Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
(19) If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
(20) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
(21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Joh 11:26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Joh 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Mar 12:27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Jesus taught the dead are alive. Jesus's words supercede your doctrine.

John 11:25 - Jesus said he was the resurrection and the life so in the context he is speaking of the resurrection:

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me though he were dead yet shall he live. . .Yes we shall live again in the resurrection.

Also the context of Mark 12 is the resurrection:

v18Then came unto him the Sadducees which say there is no resurrection . . . .v23 In the resurrection therefore when they shall rise . . . v24 . .Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures neither the power of God? v26 And as touching the dead that they rise - When do they rise? In the resurrection. When is God not the God of the dead but of the living? Not now, but at the time of the resurrection. The Bible says Abraham is dead, Isaac is dead, Jacob is dead, How long will they remain dead? Until the resurrection and that has not come yet.

 

[krisbrian]

Go ahead and play mental gymnastics.............

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Paul Knew consciousness existed outside the body. Paul would have been certain he was in the body if he thought there was no life out side of the body. He was uncertain? why? He existed outside the body. Outer body experience.


But be stubborn in your doctrine.

 

[Red33]

I have loved ones that are dead and I have the peace of mind that they will be raised when Christ returns. I have the peace of mind that no matter how long they have been in the grave; they don't know - the next thing that they will know will be the resurrection.

Satan loves the teaching that the dead are alive now - that is how spritirualist make their money on bringing back the so-called dead for their loved ones.

Deut. 18:10-12 . . . .to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD. . . . .

Satan uses all the above based o n the counterfeit teaching of "the dead are alive now."

It's more like Satan capitalizes upon the unknown and the attachment people have with loved ones or others who have passed on to give them a false hope that they are alright when in reality they are lost and have been assigned to a place of torment. Many of these so-called mediums are in this business to provide closure to these families who live without hope and are vulnerable to what they can not observe with their eyes and have not the knowledge of God or any understanding concerning life after death.

As a believer our hope is in the resurrection through the promise of God, but to be of the understanding that when we die we cease to exist instead of being absent from the body and present with the Lord is unbelief. To have begun our fellowship with the Lord through salvation here on the earth and somehow we have been convinced that it ends at death until the resurrection, is being separated from the living God.

Jn 11:25,26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Jn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1Jn 3:14,15 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

passed from death unto life : this phrase in the above two verses has the verb 'is passed' and 'have passed' and they both are in the perfect tense describing the action as being completed in the past, once and for all, without needing to be completed as a settled fact.

The place that we haved from death unto life in Christ is according to the following...

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],

Eph 2:5,6 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) 6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

Col 3:2-4 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

 

[shroom2]

The transfiguration was a type of the coming of Christ
Mark 9:1-4
(1) And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
(2) And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
(3) And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
(4) And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

The transfiguration was a vision given to Jesus Christ to strengthen him, to help him see what the future will be like if he persevered to the end, which he obviously did. Those with him also saw the vision.

Moses died and was resurrected
Deuteronomy 34:5-7
(5) So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
(6) And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
(7) And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.
Jude 1:9
(9) Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

The devil disputed because Moses was resurrected.

Moses has not been resurrected. No man has been resurrected except Christ (John 3:13). Moses will be resurrected at the resurrection of the just.

Elijah was translated
2 Kings 2:11
(11) And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Elijah represents those who will be alive when Jesus returns and will be translated while Moses represents those who have died in the Lord who will be resurrected.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
(13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
(14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring (lead way) with him.
(15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Elijah was simply moved by God to another place to validate the passing of his ministry of Elisha. Elijah was taken into the sky. He is not in heaven. No man is, except for Christ. If Elijah was taken into heaven before Christ lived and died, then any man could be taken to heaven, and Christ's sacrifice was not necessary. Elijah will be resurrected at the resurrection of the just.

 

[shroom2]

Soul sleepers really rob themselves of the peace of mind of knowing your loved ones are with the father.

But that's just it. They aren't.

Satan and his demons are alive......

Those that love God are dead I guess.

Right. But they will be raised.

God will not leave his children dead in a grave....while satan and demons live. get real

God's children will be raised and live forever. Satan and his demons will be destroyed.

The Devil and demons live? while Gods children are dead in a grave? I think not

It's what the bible says.

 

[shroom2]

Go ahead and play mental gymnastics.............

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Paul Knew consciousness existed outside the body. Paul would have been certain he was in the body if he thought there was no life out side of the body. He was uncertain? why? He existed outside the body. Outer body experience.


But be stubborn in your doctrine.

Paul did not have an "outer body experience". He received revelation from God showing him what the future third heaven and earth will be like.

 

[shroom2]

It's more like Satan capitalizes upon the unknown and the attachment people have with loved ones or others who have passed on to give them a false hope that they are alright when in reality they are lost and have been assigned to a place of torment. Many of these so-called mediums are in this business to provide closure to these families who live without hope and are vulnerable to what they can not observe with their eyes and have not the knowledge of God or any understanding concerning life after death.

As a believer our hope is in the resurrection through the promise of God, but to be of the understanding that when we die we cease to exist instead of being absent from the body and present with the Lord is unbelief.

No, it is truth. Death is an enemy, not the "doorway to paradise".

To have begun our fellowship with the Lord through salvation here on the earth and somehow we have been convinced that it ends at death until the resurrection, is being separated from the living God.

Not at all. God has promised that dead believers will be resurrected.

Jn 11:25,26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Jn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1Jn 3:14,15 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

passed from death unto life : this phrase in the above two verses has the verb 'is passed' and 'have passed' and they both are in the perfect tense describing the action as being completed in the past, once and for all, without needing to be completed as a settled fact.

The place that we haved from death unto life in Christ is according to the following...

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],

Eph 2:5,6 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) 6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

Col 3:2-4 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Col 3:2-4 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Our hope is in being resurrected, not in dying.

 

[IMINJC]

PEACEFULBELIEVER

YOU SAID: "I did not say that "I believed God Lied" I said "if I believed that Abraham literally spoke those words I would have to believe that God lied".

That's my point...you would believe that God lied before you would consider that your understanding of the referenced OT scriptures were wrong.....As I said this is very sad.

 

[Red33]

Our hope is in being resurrected, not in dying.

Have you nothing to say about the other inspired verses of scripture mentioned or would you rather forget they exist? You don't study the tense, voice and mood of those verbs and how they relate to the believer and their position in Christ.

Jn 11:25,26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Do you believe what Jesus says. The believer shall never die. Does this refer to the soul and body together in the grave or does it suggest that the soul is separate from the body with the hope of them being united in the resurrection? SHALL NEVER DIE means that something is not going to die and it refers to those that believe. Jesus is confronting your unbelief. Did you hear it shroom2? BELIEVEST THOU THIS?

Say it over and over, And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

 

[redemption]

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Awesome Red! Iisnt it wonderful what our Lord has done for us! I praise Him and thank Him daily.

 

[IMINJC]

LAODICEA


YOU SAID: "If what you are saying is true and we go to heaven or hell when we die that means we are rewarded at death,"


No..Thats your assumption or interpretation of what I'm saying. I have never said that rewards are issued at death.

Myself and other posters have already answered this question several times on this thread. "Hell" or "the place of torment" that Jesus makes us aware of is not the final judgement for lost souls. That's where they are being held now as we speak. Like Jesus said, they will all face Him on the day of the "Great White Throne Judgement" and be cast into the "Lake Of Fire"..which is the "Second Death." "Hell" itself will also be cast into the lake of fire.

As for the righteous souls.. that before the death burrial and resurrection of Jesus Christ used to be carried by the Angel's to Abrahams Boosm or "Paradise"..or whatever you want to call it,..( It was "A Paradise"..but not "The Paradise"...because this Paradise was seperate from the presence of God...one had to descend to get there)....

There they waited for the redemptive blood of Jesus to be shed for their sins even though they were comforted, they were still held captive there by Satan because he held the Keys of Death Hell and the Grave...

Now the righteous dead are carried by the Angel's into the presence of our Lord. Now they wait there to receive their "Glorified Bodies" after Jesus resurrects their dead bodies from the graves of the earth. When this takes place, the righteous people that are still living on earth will be "changed in a twinkling of an eye" and recieve their "Glorified Bodies" and be caught up to meet the Lord and all of the saints who proceeded us in the clouds and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


You Said: "that means Jesus contradicted Himself, we are following a liar for Jesus said we are rewarded when He returns"

As you can see Jesus have not contadicted Himself. Rewards will be handed out after the resurrection...no rewards are handed out at death.

 

[IMINJC]

LAODICEA


YOU SAID: "Also Jesus referred to death as a sleep"


That's a fact..He did refer to death as "Sleep" ... In every case that this is done it is in reference to the "Body." When the Spirit is in the body it has "conciousness" "memory" "intelligence" "movement"...when the body "Gives up the Ghost" it becomes "lifeless" and no matter how long you talk to it, it will not respond....why? because it's DEAD. I have even seen some dead bodies that appeared to be "sleep."

JESUS REFERS TO ALL DEAD BODIES OF THE RIGHTEOUS AS "SLEEP"....because He will awaken all of them on the resurrection.

Here is my scripture that specifically states this to be true:

Matthew 27:52
52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,


Now what you have to do is show me in scripture where the "Dead" is referring to Soul and Spirit. Where does it specifically state that the Spirit or Soul knows nothing at death and is sleep?

 

[IMINJC]

PEACFULBELIEVER


I SAID: The story that Jesus told TOTALLY contradicts your understanding of those OT verses. That's why I say (for your sake) that an explanation is demanded...but He gave you none.

YOU SAID: "The Pharisees needed no explanation. They knew exactly what he was saying."


That's only if your intepretation of this story is true and we have already discovered that you have been forced to bend the facts of this story to make it fit your theology....so leaning to your own understanding here is not wise.

Ok...Show me another example in scripture when Jesus openly contradicts a foundational doctrine in sccripture and DOES NOT GIVE AN EXPLANATION FOR IT?....

The Fact is everytime Jesus violates something in the Law according to Jewish custom, or if someone does something to Him, or for Him, or says somethinghing to Him that seems contrary to God's Word.. JESUS GIVES AN EXPLANTION FOR IT...everytime.....

Except when he tells the account of the Rich Man and Lazarus....Someone who strongly believed in the doctrine of soul sleep would never have done that. Especially Jesus of all people.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Go ahead and play mental gymnastics.............

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Paul Knew consciousness existed outside the body. Paul would have been certain he was in the body if he thought there was no life out side of the body. He was uncertain? why? He existed outside the body. Outer body experience.


But be stubborn in your doctrine.

I don't believe that I played "mental gymnastics" I just used context.

Did you read v1?

I don't have a doctrine - just the word of God.

 

[shroom2]

Have you nothing to say about the other inspired verses of scripture mentioned or would you rather forget they exist? You don't study the tense, voice and mood of those verbs and how they relate to the believer and their position in Christ.

Jn 11:25,26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Do you believe what Jesus says. The believer shall never die. Does this refer to the soul and body together in the grave or does it suggest that the soul is separate from the body with the hope of them being united in the resurrection? SHALL NEVER DIE means that something is not going to die and it refers to those that believe. Jesus is confronting your unbelief. Did you hear it shroom2? BELIEVEST THOU THIS?

Say it over and over, And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Jn 11:25,26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall [FUTURE] he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

When shall he live? At the resurrection. And once resurrected, he shall never die. I absolutely believe it.

Until then, dead believers are dead, along with everyone else except Christ.

John 3:13.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

PEACEFULBELIEVER

YOU SAID: "I did not say that "I believed God Lied" I said "if I believed that Abraham literally spoke those words I would have to believe that God lied".

That's my point...you would believe that God lied before you would consider that your understanding of the referenced OT scriptures were wrong.....As I said this is very sad.

Yea - but you don't see that I believe what God said about death. I have no problem whatsoever.