Are the dead dead or do they keep on liveing?..............

[IMINJC]

peacefulbeliever



YOU SAID: "God's word does not change. He means what he says where he says it when he says it and how he says it. Therefore when he says the dead are in silence, they have no memory, nor emotions then that is truth and what should be carried out through scripture.

Yes it is a fact and truth that the DEAD are in silence, they have no memory, nor emotions...But what is not a fact is your opinion that the departed souls are lifeless with no expression or thoughts.

Here is my sripture that shows the "DEAD" is the "Body" not the Soul:

Matthew 27:52
52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,


Now show me your scripture that SPECIFICALLY states that the soul is dead and knows nothing.


YOU SAID: "To say that people have gone to heaven, paradise, Abraham's bosom, etc. - is to contradict what God has said. No one has ascended into heaven except the Son of God."

First of all it was Jesus who said that people went to Abraham's bosom and I am foolish enough to believe Him...THAT IS A FACT... the only way you can refute that fact is to lean to your own understanding of scripture and make that FACT fit your theology.

JOHN 3:13
13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

When Jesus quoted this scripture it was true that no man had yet ascended up to heaven...Why?...because He had not yet paid the price for man to ascend into heaven. I assume that Enoch and Elijah were taken to Abraham's bosom when God caught them away..because Jesus blood had not yet been shed for their sins. After His death burrial and resurrection Jesus snatched the Keys of death Hell and the grave away from Satan and death had not only lost it's victory, but it lost it's sting as well...and souls are now carried by the Angel's into Heaven.

 

[shroom2]

...YOU SAID: "To say that people have gone to heaven, paradise, Abraham's bosom, etc. - is to contradict what God has said. No one has ascended into heaven except the Son of God."

First of all it was Jesus who said that people went to Abraham's bosom and I am foolish enough to believe Him...THAT IS A FACT...

Yes, you are foolish to believe that the parable he was telling was literal truth.

the only way you can refute that fact is to lean to your own understanding of scripture and make that FACT fit your theology.

JOHN 3:13
13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

When Jesus quoted this scripture it was true that no man had yet ascended up to heaven...Why?...because He had not yet paid the price for man to ascend into heaven. I assume that Enoch and Elijah were taken to Abraham's bosom when God caught them away..because Jesus blood had not yet been shed for their sins. After His death burrial and resurrection Jesus snatched the Keys of death Hell and the grave away from Satan and death had not only lost it's victory, but it lost it's sting as well...and souls are now carried by the Angel's into Heaven.

Jesus did not say John 3:13. John, the narrator did. Notice the phrase "even the Son of man which is in heaven". Jesus was not in heaven and standing there talking to Nicodemus.

When a person dies, their souls are not "carried by the angels into heaven". The soul does not, and cannot, live on. Soul is simply that which gives life to the body. The person dies, body and soul. If a person had holy spirit, it returns to God who gave it. But the person is dead, and will remain so until one of the future resurrections.

 

[Red33]

Jn 11:25,26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall [FUTURE] he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

When shall he live? At the resurrection. And once resurrected, he shall never die. I absolutely believe it.

Until then, dead believers are dead, along with everyone else except Christ.

John 3:13.

Give it up shroom3, it is hopeless for you to believe as you do because we have eternal life (zoe) and God's eternal redemption in our soul that no man can take from us, not even your terrible doctrine that you persist to remain in error over. You are striving and wrestling and striving and gaining nothing. If you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, you shall never die, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER DIE, DO YOU BELIEVE IT? Right now you don't, but maybe you will real soon. We are in Christ and death can not take us out of that position (locative of sphere). We have been placed in Christ and through death we are not separated from that location because it is in heavenly places with Christ and every born again believer that has trusted and believed upon the Son. You have the scriptures but you miss it and glaze your understanding right over it because of a certain blindness in your faith.

Every single thing about our Lord is eternal life. He came that we might have life and have it more abundantly. To die and go in the grave and have no life is not the doctrine of Christ nor is it the life that we have in Christ. You are not right in any of this no matter what you say and to whom. Those that have the life of Christ in them know that they have passed from death unto life. Paul said in (Phil 1:21), 'For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain'. What kind of gain is that to just go into the ground as a dead soul/body man? By your doctrine it is not gain, its just a dead old corpse with a soul that has no life that's sleeping along side that dead rotting corpse. YUK! What a lifeless doctrine you live by. In Adam all die but in Christ all are made alive, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT?

 

[Laodicea]

LAODICEA


YOU SAID: "If what you are saying is true and we go to heaven or hell when we die that means we are rewarded at death,"


No..Thats your assumption or interpretation of what I'm saying. I have never said that rewards are issued at death.

Myself and other posters have already answered this question several times on this thread. "Hell" or "the place of torment" that Jesus makes us aware of is not the final judgement for lost souls. That's where they are being held now as we speak. Like Jesus said, they will all face Him on the day of the "Great White Throne Judgement" and be cast into the "Lake Of Fire"..which is the "Second Death." "Hell" itself will also be cast into the lake of fire.

As for the righteous souls.. that before the death burrial and resurrection of Jesus Christ used to be carried by the Angel's to Abrahams Boosm or "Paradise"..or whatever you want to call it,..( It was "A Paradise"..but not "The Paradise"...because this Paradise was seperate from the presence of God...one had to descend to get there)....

There they waited for the redemptive blood of Jesus to be shed for their sins even though they were comforted, they were still held captive there by Satan because he held the Keys of Death Hell and the Grave...

Now the righteous dead are carried by the Angel's into the presence of our Lord. Now they wait there to receive their "Glorified Bodies" after Jesus resurrects their dead bodies from the graves of the earth. When this takes place, the righteous people that are still living on earth will be "changed in a twinkling of an eye" and recieve their "Glorified Bodies" and be caught up to meet the Lord and all of the saints who proceeded us in the clouds and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


You Said: "that means Jesus contradicted Himself, we are following a liar for Jesus said we are rewarded when He returns"

As you can see Jesus have not contadicted Himself. Rewards will be handed out after the resurrection...no rewards are handed out at death.

It is true that you have answered it but, with your own words.

 

[Laodicea]

LAODICEA


YOU SAID: "Also Jesus referred to death as a sleep"


That's a fact..He did refer to death as "Sleep" ... In every case that this is done it is in reference to the "Body." When the Spirit is in the body it has "conciousness" "memory" "intelligence" "movement"...when the body "Gives up the Ghost" it becomes "lifeless" and no matter how long you talk to it, it will not respond....why? because it's DEAD. I have even seen some dead bodies that appeared to be "sleep."

JESUS REFERS TO ALL DEAD BODIES OF THE RIGHTEOUS AS "SLEEP"....because He will awaken all of them on the resurrection.

Here is my scripture that specifically states this to be true:

Matthew 27:52
52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,


Now what you have to do is show me in scripture where the "Dead" is referring to Soul and Spirit. Where does it specifically state that the Spirit or Soul knows nothing at death and is sleep?

I am glad to hear that you are saying that death is a sleep, now you need to understand what the soul and spirit are, maybe a new thread just for what is soul and spirit.

 

[shroom2]

Give it up shroom3, it is hopeless for you to believe as you do because we have eternal life (zoe) and God's eternal redemption in our soul that no man can take from us, not even your terrible doctrine that you persist to remain in error over. You are striving and wrestling and striving and gaining nothing. If you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, you shall never die, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER DIE, DO YOU BELIEVE IT? Right now you don't, but maybe you will real soon. We are in Christ and death can not take us out of that position (locative of sphere). We have been placed in Christ and through death we are not separated from that location because it is in heavenly places with Christ and every born again believer that has trusted and believed upon the Son. You have the scriptures but you miss it and glaze your understanding right over it because of a certain blindness in your faith.

Every single thing about our Lord is eternal life. He came that we might have life and have it more abundantly. To die and go in the grave and have no life is not the doctrine of Christ nor is it the life that we have in Christ. You are not right in any of this no matter what you say and to whom. Those that have the life of Christ in them know that they have passed from death unto life. Paul said in (Phil 1:21), 'For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain'. What kind of gain is that to just go into the ground as a dead soul/body man? By your doctrine it is not gain, its just a dead old corpse with a soul that has no life that's sleeping along side that dead rotting corpse. YUK! What a lifeless doctrine you live by. In Adam all die but in Christ all are made alive, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT?

Yes, I absolutely do. In Christ all shall be made alive. Believers will be raised to eternal life, unbelievers will be raised, judged, and if found wanting, destroyed.

That will all happen IN THE FUTURE. In the meantime, dead people remain dead. Our HOPE is in the coming future resurrections. Without that hope, promised to us by God, we are of men most miserable.

Concerning your misunderstanding of Phil 1;21, please have a look here:

Truth Or Tradition - Do Christians [people] go straight to Heaven if they die? Difficult Bible verses

 

[IMINJC]

SHROOM2

YOU SAID: Yes, you are foolish to believe that the parable he was telling was literal truth.


Jesus said Abraham spoke and you said Abraham did not speak...That's A Fact

Jesus said that Angels carried Lazarus to Abraham's bosom...You said No they did not...That's a Fact

In order to do away with these 2 facts that JESUS established HIMSELF...You chose to bend and re-shape the Fact so that you can justify your beloved doctrine which CLEARLY makes Jesus a Liar....

AND YOU HAVE THE NERVE TO SAY I'm THE FOOL! ..SO SAD.


YOU CAN'T TELL ME ONE THING ABOUT SOUL SLEEP THAT IS A FACT.

 

[shroom2]

SHROOM2

YOU SAID: Yes, you are foolish to believe that the parable he was telling was literal truth.

Jesus said Abraham spoke and you said Abraham did not speak...That's A Fact

Jesus said that Angels carried Lazarus to Abraham's bosom...You said No they did not...That's a Fact

In order to do away with these 2 facts that JESUS established HIMSELF...You chose to bend and re-shape the Fact so that you can justify your beloved doctrine which CLEARLY makes Jesus a Liar....

AND YOU HAVE THE NERVE TO SAY I'm THE FOOL! ..SO SAD.

You seem to be having a real hard time accepting that Jesus was telling a parable.

YOU CAN'T TELL ME ONE THING ABOUT SOUL SLEEP THAT IS A FACT.

What's TRUTH is that the dead die, and know nothing. People will be raised from death to life when Jesus Christ returns for the church (1 Thes 4, 1 Cor 15), or the resurrection of the just (Rev 20), or the resurrection of the unjust (also Rev 20).

 

[IMINJC]

LAODICEA

YOU SAID: I am glad to hear that you are saying that death is a sleep, now you need to understand what the soul and spirit are, maybe a new thread just for what is soul and spirit.


What do you mean that your glad that I'm saying that Death is sleep?...Which one of us ever said that Death for the righteous Dead was not sleep? I already understand what the spirit of man is..obviously more so than you. The Spirit of man is the heart of a person that Jesus brought to life at the point of Salvation.....The Soul is mans mind, will, and emotions, that must be Renewed with the Word of God after Salvation. The Spirit of Man and The Soul are united Forever you can't separate them..That's why the Bible often enter changes them. God breathed Man's Spirit into the Body and he BECAME a living Soul or he became self aware or conscience. The body however came from this earth and so to this earth at death it will return.

 

[IMINJC]

SHROOM2.

YOU SAID: You seem to be having a real hard time accepting that Jesus was telling a parable


You seem to be having a real hard time understanding what a Fact is.

You continue to call Jesus a Liar..That's a Fact.

Here let me help you out....

What's TRUTH is that the dead die, and know nothing. People will be raised from death to life when Jesus Christ returns for the church (1 Thes 4, 1 Cor 15), or the resurrection of the just (Rev 20), or the resurrection of the unjust (also Rev 20).

These scriptures are true..every bit of it. But your interpretation of these verses are not Facts...THey are just your opinion.

My Fact about soul consciousness after death is Jesus said Abraham spoke when we all know he was dead!

WHERE IS YOUR FACT THAT SUPPORTS SOUL SLEEP SHROOM2?

I'm WAITING.....

 

[peacefulbeliever]

SHROOM2.

YOU SAID: You seem to be having a real hard time accepting that Jesus was telling a parable

You seem to be having a real hard time understanding what a Fact is.

You continue to call Jesus a Liar..That's a Fact.

Here let me help you out....

What's TRUTH is that the dead die, and know nothing. People will be raised from death to life when Jesus Christ returns for the church (1 Thes 4, 1 Cor 15), or the resurrection of the just (Rev 20), or the resurrection of the unjust (also Rev 20).

These scriptures are true..every bit of it. But your interpretation of these verses are not Facts...THey are just your opinion.

My Fact about soul consciousness after death is Jesus said Abraham spoke when we all know he was dead!

WHERE IS YOUR FACT THAT SUPPORTS SOUL SLEEP SHROOM2?

I'm WAITING.....

I can't believe it we actually agree on something!!!!

What's TRUTH is that the dead die, and know nothing. People will be raised from death to life when Jesus Christ returns for the church (1 Thes 4, 1 Cor 15), or the resurrection of the just (Rev 20), or the resurrection of the unjust (also Rev 20).

The above is saying the same thing Shroom2, Laodicea, and I have been saying. The rest . . . . .well. . . .

 

[IMINJC]

PEACFULBELIEVER.

I can't believe it ? we actually agree on something!!!!


I am Sooooo happy to agree with you !!

 

[shroom2]

You continue to call Jesus a Liar..That's a Fact.

No, that is a lie. I have never called Jesus Christ a liar, and never will.

 

[shroom2]

I can't believe it we actually agree on something!!!!

What's TRUTH is that the dead die, and know nothing. People will be raised from death to life when Jesus Christ returns for the church (1 Thes 4, 1 Cor 15), or the resurrection of the just (Rev 20), or the resurrection of the unjust (also Rev 20).

The above is saying the same thing Shroom2, Laodicea, and I have been saying. The rest . . . . .well. . . .

If you'll read back a couple posts, you'll see he was directly quoting me.

 

[Laodicea]

The term soul sleep is not mentioned in the Bible But, the Bible says this.
1 Kings 2:10
(10) So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.
1 Kings 11:43
(43) And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.
1 Kings 14:31
(31) And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And his mother's name was Naamah an Ammonitess. And Abijam his son reigned in his stead.
1 Kings 15:8
(8) And Abijam slept with his fathers; and they buried him in the city of David: and Asa his son reigned in his stead.

The term soul sleep is a made up term, the Bible says they went to sleep and were buried. They are asleep until Jesus wakes them out of sleep
Psalms 17:15
(15) As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.
Daniel 12:2
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
John 11:11-14
(11) These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
(12) Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
(13) Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
(14) Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

 

[IMINJC]

LAODICEA.


YOU SAID: The term soul sleep is not mentioned in the Bible But, the Bible says this.
1 Kings 2:10
(10) So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.
1 Kings 11:43
(43) And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.
1 Kings 14:31
(31) And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And his mother's name was Naamah an Ammonitess. And Abijam his son reigned in his stead.
1 Kings 15:8
(8) And Abijam slept with his fathers; and they buried him in the city of David: and Asa his son reigned in his stead.

I appreciate your posting of these awesome verses of scripture, but I'm sure that you can see that these are not Facts of "Soul Sleep"....When these scriptures say that David slept, or Solomon slept, it then immediately mentions in some that they were BURRIED...this once again is in reference to THE BODY not the Soul. You
only bury bodies at death not Souls ....This once again is a reference to only the BODY sleeping.

One can say all they want how these verses actually mean that the Soul is sleep as well but that's only that persons opinion or interpretation...That's not a Fact.

WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS SOUL SLEEP IS A FACT?

 

[IMINJC]

SHROOM2.


YOU SAID:: No, that is a lie. I have never called Jesus Christ a liar, and never will.



Well sure you have SHROOM...And you do it with such boldness and confidence. I would be upset to if someone said that I called Jesus a Liar also ...

So you say I'm lying about you calling Jesus a lie Right? Well lest test it to see if I'm Lying or if you are.

I said that Jesus quoted Abraham in the Bible after he was dead...That's the truth


I also said that You stated that Abraham never said the words that Jesus claimed he said...That's the truth

So far I'm looking pretty good!...Now let's test you.


Jesus said that Abraham spoke after he was clearly dead...You said No Abraham did not speak
Jesus said that Lazarus was carried by the Angels to Abrahams bosom...You said No they did not
Jesus said that the dead souls of men have thought, memories, and can speak...You said No they do not
Jesus said that Abraham said that there was a Gulf between their Paradise and their place of torment...You said No that place doesn't exist.

Your not lookin so good SHROOM...I don't know bout anybody else that's reading this, but where I come from..SHROOM2 is calling Jesus a Liar.

 

[IMINJC]

SHROOM2.


I SAID: Your not lookin so good SHROOM...I don't know bout anybody else that's reading this, but where I come from..SHROOM2 is calling Jesus a Liar.


And your doing it all based on a doctrine that is so flimsy YOU CAN'T PROOVE IT BY SHOWING ME ONE FACT IN SCRIPTURE THAT SUPPORTS IT.

 

[Laodicea]

LAODICEA.


YOU SAID: The term soul sleep is not mentioned in the Bible But, the Bible says this.
1 Kings 2:10
(10) So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.
1 Kings 11:43
(43) And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.
1 Kings 14:31
(31) And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And his mother's name was Naamah an Ammonitess. And Abijam his son reigned in his stead.
1 Kings 15:8
(8) And Abijam slept with his fathers; and they buried him in the city of David: and Asa his son reigned in his stead.

I appreciate your posting of these awesome verses of scripture, but I'm sure that you can see that these are not Facts of "Soul Sleep"....When these scriptures say that David slept, or Solomon slept, it then immediately mentions in some that they were BURRIED...this once again is in reference to THE BODY not the Soul. You
only bury bodies at death not Souls ....This once again is a reference to only the BODY sleeping.

One can say all they want how these verses actually mean that the Soul is sleep as well but that's only that persons opinion or interpretation...That's not a Fact.

WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS SOUL SLEEP IS A FACT?

I started a thread on what is the spirit and soul it would be good if you went to that thread and go over the info.

 

[Red33]

Yes, I absolutely do. In Christ all shall be made alive. Believers will be raised to eternal life, unbelievers will be raised, judged, and if found wanting, destroyed.

That will all happen IN THE FUTURE. In the meantime, dead people remain dead. Our HOPE is in the coming future resurrections. Without that hope, promised to us by God, we are of men most miserable.

Concerning your misunderstanding of Phil 1;21, please have a look here:

Truth Or Tradition - Do Christians [people] go straight to Heaven if they die? Difficult Bible verses

So this is where you get your information, very interesting.