Can someone lose their salvation?

[eternally-gratefull]

That just comes from your own misconceptions. The bible says salvation is by grace and not of works. Obviously losing salvation would be by grace and not of works too. This cannot be the case because grace gives and does not take away.

What would it be called to give someone a gift and then if they didn't work to keep it, it would be taken away? It couldn't be called a gift, could it? It would have to be called something else.

We are saved by the Power of God Himself. Not by ourselves or by our actions or our works. Thank God for that!!!

Amen brother!

Like paul said, we are foolish if we believe we are saved by the spirit, but then must earn it by the flesh. God does not give us a gift asking us to earn it. He gives us a gift based on his love. God is not going to give someone his gift if

1. He knows they do not have true faith (thus will one day turn from him and no longer believe)
2. He is not going to give someone a gift he knows is does not truely believe in him and has not repented, thus will continue living as he did before (or mere belief, even demons believe and tremble)

these people do not understand the omniscience of God. They think God is going to make a mistake, and give someone his gift and then have to take it back for whatever reason. God knew our whole life before we were even born. Thus God knows who has true faith and who does not.

 

[Grandpa]

by the power of God THROUGH FAITH!!

1 PETER 1:5 SAYS WE ARE SAVED THROUGH FAITH!
if you quit having faith, you GIVE UP YOUR SALVATION

and if you deny Jesus Christ, He will deny you
2 Timothy 2:12

some of you truly are blind

The Lord Jesus Christ Himself says I will never leave you nor forsake you. A person may quit on the Lord but the Lord will never quit on them.

 

[Zilla64007]

i have never taught a works-based gospel... i am not saved by works... however my faith is proven genuine in the works that i do (James 2:14-26)

what you teach is a license to sin, no matter how much you try and slice it... it is a perversion of the gospel as Christ and the Apostles taught it, and their disciples taught after them. The Gnostics were the ones who first came up with the idea that one with the duality of the flesh and the spirit, not Christianity... you personally teach Antinomianism at it's worst, something many other posters here have seen and told you. Period. it's false, it's heresy, and you lead people to the second death with that false doctrine.

and there's your problem... you still think you always HAVE to sin.
we DONT sin every single second of the day.
you don't HAVE to sin.

im not deaf and dumb to gnosticism as you and every other Calvinist/OSAS'er is.
i came out of it. and I thank God every day for breaking me free of that lying, deceptive doctrine

 

[eternally-gratefull]

eternal life is eternal life, but the possession of it is not eternal... our possession of it is based upon our faith

OSAS would say and does say otherwise

This contradicts itself.

If it is not eternal in nature, it is not eternal life. It is not a religious term, it is a literal thing. One is given life, and it will last forever. That is why jesus said they will never perish, but HAS (present tense) eternal life.

what was the requirement? Continues belief in him? Stopping sin? living a righteous life? No, Whoever believes in him HAS eternal life.

If God wanted us to know this life was conditional and not eternal, he would have called it conditional life, not eternal life!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

by the power of God THROUGH FAITH!!

1 PETER 1:5 SAYS WE ARE SAVED THROUGH FAITH!
if you quit having faith, you GIVE UP YOUR SALVATION

and if you deny Jesus Christ, He will deny you
2 Timothy 2:12

some of you truly are blind

So my salvation is CONDITIONED on my ability to keep having faith? Then I must work to continue having faith and thus work for salvation.

If I have true faith. I will never stop having that faith. It might dwindle to the faith of a mustard seed, But I will never stop believing, period. Why? Because I have the seed of God in me, who is the GUARANTEE OF MY INHERITANCE. I have been sealed by the HS until the day of redemption. This seal can not be broken. by me or anyone else.

as for denying God. We have been through this 1000 times. You deny 1 John 2 which proves they never had any life, let alone eternal life. They were never of us, they departed to prove they were never of us..

Your refusal to see this shows your true intentions.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

i have never taught a works-based gospel... i am not saved by works... however my faith is proven genuine in the works that i do (James 2:14-26)

what you teach is a license to sin, no matter how much you try and slice it... it is a perversion of the gospel as Christ and the Apostles taught it, and their disciples taught after them. The Gnostics were the ones who first came up with the idea that one with the duality of the flesh and the spirit, not Christianity... you personally teach Antinomianism at it's worst, something many other posters here have seen and told you. Period. it's false, it's heresy, and you lead people to the second death with that false doctrine.

and there's your problem... you still think you always HAVE to sin.
we DONT sin every single second of the day.
you don't HAVE to sin.

im not deaf and dumb to gnosticism as you and every other Calvinist/OSAS'er is.
i came out of it. and I thank God every day for breaking me free of that lying, deceptive doctrine

ANYONE who teaches we can lose salvation, and that eternal life is not eternal, but conditioned on ANYTHING, is teaching a works based gospel.

You can deny it all you want, but all you are denying is reality.

If I give someone a gift and say it is theres, and then this person turns his back on me and I take that gift. I have placed a condition on that gift, thus I have made it a prise or reward, and not a gift at all.

The difference between me and God is this. I do not know who would stop having faith. and thus would be giving a gift blindly hoping he would stick with me. (even then though I could not take the gift back because then I would be an indian giver, and have decieved him and those who saw me give him the grace gift into thinking I was sincere in my actions.

God on the other hand can see in the future. HE IS NOT GOING TO GIVE SOMEONE A GIFT HE KNOWS DOES NOT TRULY HAVE FAITH IN HIM. and these people will be revealed by the simple fact they stay for awhile, and eventually leave and become anti christs who deny the God who purchased them. Which is exactly what John said in his 1st epistle.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Lord Jesus Christ Himself says I will never leave you nor forsake you. A person may quit on the Lord but the Lord will never quit on them.

just to add, The Lord says through his apostle, when we are faithless, he remains faithfull, he can not deny himself (his own promise)

 

[Zilla64007]

The Lord Jesus Christ Himself says I will never leave you nor forsake you. A person may quit on the Lord but the Lord will never quit on them.

i will leave those people who hold to OSAS with this:

Romans 11:19-24
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Ezekiel 18:21-32
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.
23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair?
26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies.
27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive.
28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?

30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”

2 Timothy 2:11-13
11 This is a faithful saying:

For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.

OSAS/Perseverance of the Saints is Gnosticism. nothing more.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

i will leave those people who hold to OSAS with this:

Romans 11:19-24
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Ezekiel 18:21-32
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.
23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair?
26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies.
27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive.
28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?

30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”

2 Timothy 2:11-13
11 This is a faithful saying:

For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.

OSAS/Perseverance of the Saints is Gnosticism. nothing more.

Romans 11 is speaking about the jewish nation being Gods representative on earth, and the gentile nations (the church) taking it. He is telling the church (gentiles) not to be so proud and think they have made it, for they can be cut off just like the jews (the natural branch) did.

There are jews saved today, just like there were gentiles saved during the age of the jews, before they were cut off.

And you thought you were going to show us something? Nice try, but distorting Gods word to match your own belief is not going to convince us, If you can;t figure out context of a great passage, how are you going to convince us to fall for your belief?

 

[IMINJC]

Eternally-Grateful



YOU SAID: Well scripture shows he had other children by his adulterous lover.

Are you referring to Bathsheba?...She became David's wife, the thing initially displeased the Lord and they lost their son because of it...but the children that they may have had after that was in marriage and not sinful. No David did not "murder" anyone else after that.

God called David "A man after His own heart," not because He was sinless, but because each time He genuinely repented of the sin....not continue in it and hope that God understood that he was just a human.

 

[hislastwalk]

The correct answer is no.

You can, however walk away from your salvation.

 

[IMINJC]

eternally-grateful


YOU SAID: Romans 11 is speaking about the jewish nation being Gods representative on earth, and the gentile nations (the church) taking it. He is telling the church (gentiles) not to be so proud and think they have made it, for they can be cut off just like the jews (the natural branch) did.


I'm trying to understand exactly what OSAS truly believes. It sounds as if you just recapped exactly what Zilla64007 was insinuating in his post. Could you please explain what "For they can be cut off" means to OSAS.

 

[IMINJC]

eternally-grateful



YOU SAID: "If I give someone a gift and say it is theres, and then this person turns his back on me and I take that gift. I have placed a condition on that gift, thus I have made it a prise or reward, and not a gift at all."


That's a very good anology, but what's missing is the fact that the gift that was given represents a great sacrifice that was made by the provider of the gift. When you turn your back on the provider of the gift, you turn your back on the gift itself. (Matthew 7:21) (Matthew 10:33) This gift needs personal attention as does the provider of the gift, if you choose to neglect the gift, the provider wont have to take it back, it will wither and die right in your very hands. (Romans 11:21) (Revelation 3:5)




YOU SAID: "God on the other hand can see in the future. HE IS NOT GOING TO GIVE SOMEONE A GIFT HE KNOWS DOES NOT TRULY HAVE FAITH IN HIM. and these people will be revealed by the simple fact they stay for awhile, and eventually leave and become anti christs who deny the God who purchased them. Which is exactly what John said in his 1st epistle."

Now this is interesting, because to me this is not OSAS as I understand it to be.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

eternally-grateful


YOU SAID: Romans 11 is speaking about the jewish nation being Gods representative on earth, and the gentile nations (the church) taking it. He is telling the church (gentiles) not to be so proud and think they have made it, for they can be cut off just like the jews (the natural branch) did.


I'm trying to understand exactly what OSAS truly believes. It sounds as if you just recapped exactly what Zilla64007 was insinuating in his post. Could you please explain what "For they can be cut off" means to OSAS.

The point is romans 11 is not talking about individuals. No gentile nation was Gods representatives on earth during the time of the jews. Only the jewish nation could reap what God offered. Even though Gentiles could, and were saved.

They were cut of from this. and gentiles were grafted in. But they can be (and will be according to prophesy) and Isreal will be grafted back in. We can not use this to support our beliefe that a person can be cut off. Because no individual is being used in context in this passage. Thus he can not use this to back his claim, because he is taking it completely out of context.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

eternally-grateful



YOU SAID: "If I give someone a gift and say it is theres, and then this person turns his back on me and I take that gift. I have placed a condition on that gift, thus I have made it a prise or reward, and not a gift at all."


That's a very good anology, but what's missing is the fact that the gift that was given represents a great sacrifice that was made by the provider of the gift. When you turn your back on the provider of the gift, you turn your back on the gift itself. (Matthew 7:21) (Matthew 10:33) This gift needs personal attention as does the provider of the gift, if you choose to neglect the gift, the provider wont have to take it back, it will wither and die right in your very hands. (Romans 11:21) (Revelation 3:5)

1. Rom 11 is talking about nations, not people
2. Rev, how do we overcome? By works or by the blood of Jesus Christ?


The gift can not fade because the gift is eternal. That is why God calls it eternal life. If this life in christ is not eternal. God is a liar. and he has denied his own word. thus denied himself.

YOU SAID: "God on the other hand can see in the future. HE IS NOT GOING TO GIVE SOMEONE A GIFT HE KNOWS DOES NOT TRULY HAVE FAITH IN HIM. and these people will be revealed by the simple fact they stay for awhile, and eventually leave and become anti christs who deny the God who purchased them. Which is exactly what John said in his 1st epistle."

Now this is interesting, because to me this is not OSAS as I understand it to be.

Maybe you do not understand OSAS? Or you understand only from a licentious point of view? maybe thats why I keep being told I believe in free sin and licentiousness??..lol

It means God is not going to give someone a gift he KNOWS does not have faith. A person who does not have faith will walk away, proving they never had faith to begin with. A person who has true faith not only will do the works God created them to do, They will never depart (they may lose or lack faith even to th epoint of a mustard seed faith) but they will never depart from that faith. Why? Because God is in them

If we are faithless, he remains faithful, he can not deny himself.

 

[Preethamk]

If you can see the work of salvation as 3 fold : spirit , soul and body , then salvation is in 3 stages : instant for the spirit , lifetime process for the soul and at the rapture or death or judgment for the body . so now u can find the verses which tell to what extent unbelief has corroded ur salvation process !

 

[IMINJC]

eternally-greatful


YOU SAID: The point is romans 11 is not talking about individuals.

First of all I want to thank you for answering all of the posts that I addressed to you. I can see that you are busy on this thread, and your answers were very good and they have helped me to understand better, I nevr heard OSAS quite put the way that you present it.

The problem that I have with the above statement is that Paul and the other Apostles and a great percentage of the Church at the time were all of the Jewish nation that was "Cut Off." They all still considered themselves to be members of the Jewish nation. So why is it out of context to consider individuals in this text?... Because it would appear that the only part of the Jewish nation that was "Cut Off" were the "Individuals" of the Jewish nation who rejected Jesus as the Christ, and the only part of the Gentile nation that was "Grafted In," were the "Individuals" of the Gentile nation that recieved Jesus as the Christ.

My point is that a great percentage of today's Jews are still "Cut Off" and an even greater percentage of Gentiles still have not been "Grafted In." So what about the percentage of both nations that either spring from the natural root, or are grafted in?....These are INDIVIDUALS from each nation, that has made a decision for Jesus Christ.

The only way one can prove that Paul is not referring to individuals in this text is by proving that the entire nation of Jews no matter what, have been "Cut Off" and proving that the entire nation of Gentiles have automatically been "Grafted Inn."

So considering this, I feel Paul was saying to the INDIVIDUALS of the Gentile nation, that if they are not careful, they will be "Cut Off" just as the INDIVIDUALS in the Jewish nation were "Cut Off" because of their unbelief. Now the only way a Gentile can truly be "Cut Off" is he first has to be "Grafted In"...which means he was "Saved" and now because of unrepented sin and unbelief he has been "Cut Off".... lost his salvation because of unrepented sin and unbelief.

 

[TomB_2012]

You have it all wrong my friend. A licentious gospel is no gospel at all. One does not have to be licentious to believe in OSAS.

I do not believe I can sin all I want. I believe I will always be a sinner and in need of grace. A HUGE DIFFERENCE.

What you teach is a works based Gospel. No matter how you stack it up. You are saved by your works, and not by grace, anyone who does not teach OSAS is teaching salvation must be earned and it is not freely given. Period! And that my friend is disgusting, Because it is leading people astray to a false gospel. which will not save anyone!

whoa? what's OSAS?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

eternally-greatful


YOU SAID: The point is romans 11 is not talking about individuals.

First of all I want to thank you for answering all of the posts that I addressed to you. I can see that you are busy on this thread, and your answers were very good and they have helped me to understand better, I nevr heard OSAS quite put the way that you present it.

The problem that I have with the above statement is that Paul and the other Apostles and a great percentage of the Church at the time were all of the Jewish nation that was "Cut Off." They all still considered themselves to be members of the Jewish nation. So why is it out of context to consider individuals in this text?... Because it would appear that the only part of the Jewish nation that was "Cut Off" were the "Individuals" of the Jewish nation who rejected Jesus as the Christ, and the only part of the Gentile nation that was "Grafted In," were the "Individuals" of the Gentile nation that recieved Jesus as the Christ.

My point is that a great percentage of today's Jews are still "Cut Off" and an even greater percentage of Gentiles still have not been "Grafted In." So what about the percentage of both nations that either spring from the natural root, or are grafted in?....These are INDIVIDUALS from each nation, that has made a decision for Jesus Christ.

The only way one can prove that Paul is not referring to individuals in this text is by proving that the entire nation of Jews no matter what, have been "Cut Off" and proving that the entire nation of Gentiles have automatically been "Grafted Inn."

So considering this, I feel Paul was saying to the INDIVIDUALS of the Gentile nation, that if they are not careful, they will be "Cut Off" just as theINDIVIDUALS in the Jewish nation were "Cut Off" because of their unbelief. Now the only way a Gentile can truly be "Cut Off" is he first has to be "Grafted In"...which means he was "Saved" and now because of unrepented sin and unbelief he has been "Cut Off".... lost his salvation because of unrepented sin and unbelief.

Lets look at it this way.


11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.

Who are they? Isreal. Who was given it? Gentiles (not people but a group of people)


12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their [f]fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

Again, Isreal vs gentile. Although Paul was a Jew, he declared they fell away, as a nation, thus the riches of God supposed to be for them were given to the gentiles and they reep the reward

then we look forward in the chapter:

25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”
27 “THIS IS [i]MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.”
28 [j]From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but [k]from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;

Rom 9 - 11 concerns Paul talking about Isreal as a nation. Not induvidual people. God gave the promise to isreal. Did God make a mistake? No, It was prophesied they would fall away, and Gentiles would take their place. But it is also prophesied the gentiles will also fall away and Isreal will be restored. That is why I can not take this to be concerning individuals being cut of. But nations. It does not fit the context of what Paul is talking about.

 

[IMINJC]

eternally-greatful


YOU SAID: The gift can not fade because the gift is eternal. That is why God calls it eternal life. If this life in christ is not eternal. God is a liar. and he has denied his own word. thus denied himself.



You are correct, the gift is eternal life, but whether or not the gift is eternal depends on you. It's not how you start the race, it's how you finish.

I believe that our answers to how God feels about certain things is not only discovered in the Word that He declares to us, but it is also found in His tendencies. If you recall, the Lord's promise to Abraham and His seed was that they were to inherit the promised land for an eternity. So the promise was eternal possession of the land, but the gifts eternal status was dependant on the actions of the people and their leaders. As you know because of unrepented sin, unbelief and disobediance, the Lord drove them out of the land that they were supposed to possess for an eternity. He will do the same to us if we demonstrate simular disobediant behavior. This is clearly what Paul is warning us of in Romans 11.

Revelation 3:5 clearly states the the Lord will blot out names from the Lambs Book of Life. This really answers the question asked by this thread. This scripture speaks strongly for itself, and needs no interpretation or elaboration from no one.