The dead are asleep

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I

IMINJC

Guest
#241
#241
LAODICeA.


YOU SAID:: Iminjc. I showed you from the bible what souls under the altar means, you have shown no bible. You have used your own private interpretation to explain the bible.


Yeah..You showed me your interpretation of the Souls under the alter, but its just that, your interpretation which means you could be wrong so that means its not a FACT. You say I have given my own private interpretation of scripture. How is that true?.. when all I have done is post scriptures and interpreted them in there literal setting? Like for example ...I said that Souls have consciousness after death and proved it by posting the scripture in Revelation that states that there were Souls under the alter of God. Now you tell me
How is this my own private interpretation? ... Its not a interpretation at all..it is what it is. Soul consciousness after death doesn't need a interpretation..its a Biblical FACT. Soul Sleep needs too much interpretation is my point...because it has no FACTS.
 
pickles

pickles

Senior Member
#242
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
182
63
#242
To get back to the subject the dead are asleep.
In the scriptures, from what I have read, in both OT and NT, the dead that sleep appears to refur to those that have not recieved salvation.
Those alive in Jesus, are those that have recieved salvation.
I recall in the OT, that the dead are asleep.
In the NT, Paul was speaking to those that thought they could be baptised for those that were already dead, asleep.
But, I do also recall where Paul refered to our brothers that sleep, so I guess this may require mre study. :)

God bless
pickles
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#243
#243
These are your posts on souls under the altar

IMINJC said:
LAODICEA


YOU SAID: The text in rev 6 about souls under the altar is symbolic and cannot be used as proof and if it is used then the bible contradicts itself by having people going to abrahams bosom and under the altar 2 different places.
__________________

No... actually it's quite the contrary...When Jesus descended into the grave at His death He went to Abraham's Bosom with the theif and led captivity captive. In other words, Jesus cleaned that place out and took those Souls to Heaven with Him. (This is why there were bodies that slept seen walking the streets of Jerusalem) So now righteous Souls go to be directly with the Lord. So the righteous Souls under the Alter in Heaven in Revelation is correct.
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IMINJC said:
LAODICEA


YOU SAID: Souls under the altar is symbolic for the life of the martyrs who gave their life for God. During the dark ages there were many put to death, it has been estimated that there were 50, 000, 000 martyrs during the dark ages.

Laodicea...that was a very good history lesson, that's why I'm impressed with tour knowledge of such things. However, one could explain away several truths of the Bible in a similar manner. I think ur over analyzing this for the sake of your doctrine. Impressive revelation as it may be, none of what you said is a FACT. What is a FACT is the Bible says that Souls were under the alter of God. There is nothing in the text offerd that would suggest that we should not take this verse literally.

I think you have to stop Laodicea and ask yourself why the Lord continues to flirt with the idea of the Human Soul existing after death. It iis really putting you guys constantly on the defensive. I mean the Lord Himself is Soul Sleeps worst problem. You guys are constantly doing damage control when opposing posters are doing nothing more than posting literal verses of scripture. Soul Sleep has no literal verses of scripture...WHY IS THAT? Not ONCE have I had to post..."Well I know that verse says and demonstrates that the Soul Sleeps but that wasn't included in the earlier manuscripts and if you move the commas it doesn't say that, and considering its really a Parable and also only symbolic you can't accept that verse in its literal setting."
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IMINJC said:
LAODICeA.


YOU SAID:: Iminjc. I showed you from the bible what souls under the altar means, you have shown no bible. You have used your own private interpretation to explain the bible.


Yeah..You showed me your interpretation of the Souls under the alter, but its just that, your interpretation which means you could be wrong so that means its not a FACT. You say I have given my own private interpretation of scripture. How is that true?.. when all I have done is post scriptures and interpreted them in there literal setting? Like for example ...I said that Souls have consciousness after death and proved it by posting the scripture in Revelation that states that there were Souls under the alter of God. Now you tell me
How is this my own private interpretation? ... Its not a interpretation at all..it is what it is. Soul consciousness after death doesn't need a interpretation..its a Biblical FACT. Soul Sleep needs too much interpretation is my point...because it has no FACTS.
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Where are your Scriptures? All I see is your own words and that means you are interpreting the scripture about souls under the altar by your own private interpretation.

Here is my post

Laodicea said:
It is symbolic as I will show
Leviticus 4:7
(7) And the priest shall put some of the blood upon the horns of the altar of sweet incense before the LORD, which is in the tabernacle of the congregation; and shall pour all the blood of the bullock at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which is at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Blood = Life
Leviticus 17:11
(11) For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

The word life in this verse is translated from the same word as soul so it could also read "the soul of the flesh is in the blood"

The altar of burnt offering was in the courtyard where they killed the sacrifices. That means Jesus died in the courtyard and that means the courtyard is on earth.

Souls under the altar is symbolic for the life of the martyrs who gave their life for God. During the dark ages there were many put to death, it has been estimated that there were 50, 000, 000 martyrs during the dark ages.

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Life in Leviticus 17:11 is translated from the same word as soul. so it could also read like this:-
Leviticus 17:11
(11) For the soul of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#244
#244
pickles said:
To get back to the subject the dead are asleep.
In the scriptures, from what I have read, in both OT and NT, the dead that sleep appears to refur to those that have not recieved salvation.
Those alive in Jesus, are those that have recieved salvation.
I recall in the OT, that the dead are asleep.
In the NT, Paul was speaking to those that thought they could be baptised for those that were already dead, asleep.
But, I do also recall where Paul refered to our brothers that sleep, so I guess this may require mre study. :)

God bless
pickles
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1 Kings 2:10
(10) So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.

Do you think David does not have salvation?

1 Kings 11:43
(43) And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.
John 11:11-14
(11) These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
(12) Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
(13) Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
(14) Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.


 
I

IMINJC

Guest
#245
#245
LAODICEA.


YOU SAID: Where are your Scriptures? All I see is your own words and that means you are interpreting the scripture about souls under the altar by your own private interpretation.


Your kidding right?...in all of the posts that you pasted of mine you know as well as I do that I have posted scriptures to back it all up. Why didn't you point something out specifically from my posts and ask me "Where is that in the Bible?"...because you know as well as I do where it can be found in scripture. I don't have to ask you to post all the scriptures when you make a point because I'm familiar with your teaching..come on man don't play me like that.

Do I really have to post the scripture in Revelation that says the Souls of dead Saints are under Gods Alter for you? You know its there and what it says..are you saying you don't? As far as my interpretation of that scripture I don't have one, the scripture speaks for itself. You are the one who has to create an interpretation not me..I'm cool with it how its written. You on the other hand are forced once again to do damage control to protect the non Biblical concept of Soul Sleep.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#246
#246
I showed you from the bible that it is symbolic. Show from the bible that it is literal. Revelation is full of symbols
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#247
#247
Also which altar from the sanctuary is it referring to? Revelation is full of sanctuary symbols.
 
pickles

pickles

Senior Member
#248
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
182
63
#248
Laodicea said:
1 Kings 2:10
(10) So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.

Do you think David does not have salvation?

1 Kings 11:43
(43) And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.
John 11:11-14
(11) These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
(12) Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
(13) Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
(14) Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
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I probably should have said a better word for this, sorry about misunderstanding, :) as I was refuring to being alive in Jesus.
Salvation was probably not the best word, for you are correct and I agree, as in the OT as well salvation came by faith. :)
Im just trying myself to understand those alive in Jesus and those refured to as dead in Jesus, as refured to in revelations.
Wondering if there is understanding in looking to this in refrance to being asleep.
Sometimes though, I wonder about wether understanding asleep matters, for all that matters is eternal life in Jesus! :)

God bless
pickles
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#249
#249
pickles said:
I probably should have said a better word for this, sorry about misunderstanding, :) as I was refuring to being alive in Jesus.
Salvation was probably not the best word, for you are correct and I agree, as in the OT as well salvation came by faith. :)
Im just trying myself to understand those alive in Jesus and those refured to as dead in Jesus, as refured to in revelations.
Wondering if there is understanding in looking to this in refrance to being asleep.
Sometimes though, I wonder about wether understanding asleep matters, for all that matters is eternal life in Jesus! :)

God bless
pickles
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Just remember the Bible explains itself, it needs no interpreter
 
pickles

pickles

Senior Member
#250
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
182
63
#250
Laodicea said:
Just remember the Bible explains itself, it needs no interpreter
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Agreed, but I do think I need an interpreter for me sometimes. :)
I struggle sometimes to put to words the glory and wonder of God, except when His word is set upon me. :)
Sometimes I wonder if we would all do better at agreement, if we had a good interpreter for all of us.
For often I see many debating when in truth, they agree.
It is simply how they say it. :)

God bless
pickles
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#251
#251
pickles said:
Agreed, but I do think I need an interpreter for me sometimes. :)
I struggle sometimes to put to words the glory and wonder of God, except when His word is set upon me. :)
Sometimes I wonder if we would all do better at agreement, if we had a good interpreter for all of us.
For often I see many debating when in truth, they agree.
It is simply how they say it. :)

God bless
pickles
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No one could ever express in words the wonder and glory of God especially the love of God. it is better to be seen as in the life of Christ.
 
pickles

pickles

Senior Member
#252
Apr 20, 2009
14,479
182
63
#252
Laodicea said:
No one could ever express in words the wonder and glory of God especially the love of God. it is better to be seen as in the life of Christ.
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Amen, and this is the goal we seek always!!! :)
One of the many reasons the word became flesh!

God bless
pickles
 
I

IMINJC

Guest
#253
#253
LAODICEA.


YOU SAID: I showed you from the bible that it is symbolic. Show from the bible that it is literal. Revelation is full of symbols


Yes you are correct, Revelation is full of symbols, but the symbols that the Lord thought should be interpreted He provided the interpretation, either He gave it Himself like in Revelation 1 He gave the interpretation of the seven stars, or an Elder or Angel provided the interpretation throughout the book.

Any other symbolism is self explanatory..if the Lord didn't provide it, than it really doesn't need our interference. Like for instance in Revelation 6 v 7 one can interpret Death and Hades however they choose to, all that matters is that when the 4th Seal is broken a fourth of all mankind will die from the Sword, Hunger,and Wild Beasts. Jesus offers nothing else in the text that would lead us to think that the result here is symbolic.

Now in Revelation 6 v 9, the 5th Seal is opened and it states that John saw the Souls under the Alter of God who had been slain for the Word of God saying "How long oh Lord Holy and True until you judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"....Now, Jesus doesn't offer an interpretation neither does an Elder, nor an Angel. So there is no reason why we should not take this literally. Soul Sleep advocates can not take this verse literally even though the Lord Himself offered No explanation of Souls separated from their bodies crying out to Him. Since the Lord obviously thought this scripture needed no interpretation I will not give it one...it speaks for itself but following the Lords lead and leaving it alone makes your belief in Soul Sleep illogical. So as I have said you have to do damage control and provide an explanation when the Lord does not require that of you.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#254
#254
IMINJC said:
LAODICEA.


YOU SAID: I showed you from the bible that it is symbolic. Show from the bible that it is literal. Revelation is full of symbols


Yes you are correct, Revelation is full of symbols, but the symbols that the Lord thought should be interpreted He provided the interpretation, either He gave it Himself like in Revelation 1 He gave the interpretation of the seven stars, or an Elder or Angel provided the interpretation throughout the book.

Any other symbolism is self explanatory..if the Lord didn't provide it, than it really doesn't need our interference. Like for instance in Revelation 6 v 7 one can interpret Death and Hades however they choose to, all that matters is that when the 4th Seal is broken a fourth of all mankind will die from the Sword, Hunger,and Wild Beasts. Jesus offers nothing else in the text that would lead us to think that the result here is symbolic.

Now in Revelation 6 v 9, the 5th Seal is opened and it states that John saw the Souls under the Alter of God who had been slain for the Word of God saying "How long oh Lord Holy and True until you judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"....Now, Jesus doesn't offer an interpretation neither does an Elder, nor an Angel. So there is no reason why we should not take this literally. Soul Sleep advocates can not take this verse literally even though the Lord Himself offered No explanation of Souls separated from their bodies crying out to Him. Since the Lord obviously thought this scripture needed no interpretation I will not give it one...it speaks for itself but following the Lords lead and leaving it alone makes your belief in Soul Sleep illogical. So as I have said you have to do damage control and provide an explanation when the Lord does not require that of you.
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You have not answered my question, which altar from the sanctuary is being referred to in Rev 6?
 
I

IMINJC

Guest
#255
#255
LAODICEA


YOU SAID: You have not answered my question, which altar from the sanctuary is being referred to in Rev 6?

I did answer your question you just didn't understand. My answer is that it doesn't matter which Alter it is, the FACT. Is that whichever Alter it is, it has Souls of dead Saints underneath it crying out to God when the 5th seal is broken. I don't have to research the different Alters to understand that point, apparently you do.

Again I ask you..Why does the Lord continue to flirt with Souls existing after the body is in the grave if He is a firm believer in Soul Sleep?
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#256
#256
You are interpreting symbolic prophecy to be literal with no support but your own oppinion because you thinj it supports your doctrine. What about revelation 12:1 is that literel or symbolic?
 
I

IMINJC

Guest
#257
#257
LAODICEA.

YOU SAID: You are interpreting symbolic prophecy to be literal with no support but your own oppinion


Jesus, an Elder nor an Angel did not offer an interpretation in the text...You can't get no better support than that. Jesus obviously did not think that Souls under the Alter of God is not symbolic of anything the scripture speaks for itself.

The only reason you are forced to think its symbolic is because it spits in the face of your doctrine as written.
Now..Where are the scriptures that spit in the face of my doctrine? Where are the scriptures that will force me to research all of the Alters of God or to label a clearly written scripture symbolic. Revelation is full of symbolism but its interesting none of it demonstrates clearly the false concept of Soul Sleep...Why is that?
 
I

IMINJC

Guest
#258
#258
LAODICEA.

Revelation 12...This is a good example of the symbolism demonstrated in the Book of Revelation, but as I said..The Lord Himself, an Elder, or an Angel will provide the necessary information that we need to understand the Book, if its not offered than we should accept what's written.

I could go through what I think the Woman means and the 12 stars on her head and what the Seven headed 10 horned dragon means, but what we need to know about the entire chapter is explained by the Loud Voice from Heaven in verse 10.

10*Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11*And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12*Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

Did you ever notice that what is written before this in this chapter and after this in this chapter is pretty much covered in this explanation provided by the Loud Voice...probably an Angel.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#259
#259
Job 14:12
(12) So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
2 Peter 3:10
(10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Job 14:21
(21) His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them.


 
G

GreenNnice

Guest
#260
#260
Laodicea said:
Job 14:12
(12) So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
2 Peter 3:10
(10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Job 14:21
(21) His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them.
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To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord :)
 
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