Catholic Heresy (for the record)

[rainacorn]

We believe St. Peter is the founder, and the first pope (leader) of the Church. As Christ instructed him, his name would mean "rock" because he would be the first building block of Christ's church, as Mediate eloquently explained.

I've always wondered about this.

Justifying Peter as the first pope of what has become the Catholic Church requires a very very specific interpretation of that verse, and that verse alone.

How can you be so certain that THAT is what Jesus meant? Like so certain that you'd be willing to go along with anything the Catholic church does and has done throughout history?

Couldn't it just as easily mean that Peter was firm in his faith, and faith like that is what the church will be built upon?

 

[Mediate]

This is quite sinister in a way. The whole commandment of Jesus was NOT to be Pharisees and believe that only YOUR way is the right way. And clearly, I feel very sorry for the Catholic members on here, who are not, by the way, condemning others views of faith or how they worship, but merely standing up for themselves. I do believe that these are the people who are doing the right thing. It is nobody's place to call anybody a fool or slander their faith. Nobody.

Saying 'you are wrong, you are blind', is quite a vindictive and un-christian thing to do and I think some people are owed an apology here.

 

[sitwatcher]

I've always wondered about this.

Justifying Peter as the first pope of what has become the Catholic Church requires a very very specific interpretation of that verse, and that verse alone.

How can you be so certain that THAT is what Jesus meant? Like so certain that you'd be willing to go along with anything the Catholic church does and has done throughout history?

Couldn't it just as easily mean that Peter was firm in his faith, and faith like that is what the church will be built upon?

For the record Peter did not have statue of Mary.

 

[Mediate]

It states in the bible, Jesus says to Peter, basically, 'you are the person who will lead my church'. Read Matthew. Jesus says to Peter several times 'Whatever YOU bind on Earth, will be bound in heaven. Whatever YOU loose on earth, will be loosened in heaven'.

 

[Spartacus1122]

I've always wondered about this.

Justifying Peter as the first pope of what has become the Catholic Church requires a very very specific interpretation of that verse, and that verse alone.

How can you be so certain that THAT is what Jesus meant? Like so certain that you'd be willing to go along with anything the Catholic church does and has done throughout history?

Couldn't it just as easily mean that Peter was firm in his faith, and faith like that is what the church will be built upon?

Nice try in splitting hair.
Major Fail.

(Matthew 16:13-20), Jesus asks, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” The disciples give various answers. When he asks, "Who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter answers, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." In turn, Jesus declares Peter to be "blessed" for having recognized Jesus' true identity and attributes this recognition to a divine revelation. Then Jesus addresses Simon by "Peter" (Petros [rock] in Greek, Petras in Latin) and said to him, "On this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it."

This is quite sinister in a way. The whole commandment of Jesus was NOT to be Pharisees and believe that only YOUR way is the right way. And clearly, I feel very sorry for the Catholic members on here, who are not, by the way, condemning others views of faith or how they worship, but merely standing up for themselves. I do believe that these are the people who are doing the right thing. It is nobody's place to call anybody a fool or slander their faith. Nobody.

Saying 'you are wrong, you are blind', is quite a vindictive and un-christian thing to do and I think some people are owed an apology here.

Bigotry and hypocrisy often go hand in hand.

Well argued.
Thank you.

 

[Mediate]

It's true. Jesus said that there is no way to the Father except through Him. People here seem to think that Jesus commandment to love everyone does not apply if you are speaking to a Catholic. It does not matter what denomination you come from. I can safely say that all 'Christian' (yes, that includes Catholic) people, believe that there is only one way to God, and that's through Jesus.

 

[Mediate]

Peter was given power above the rest of the disciples in the forming of the church, because of his unshakeable faith in Christ as being the one true Son of God.

To say to someone 'you are not worthy, you are misguided, you are wrong', when they clearly repent in Christ, is actually saying 'Because you have a reminder of your faith, an ornament of Mary, or a belief that their should be a leader of the church (a belief Jesus himself held), you are not Christian. You do not believe what I believe'. Jesus didn't tell us an exact way the church should be run. Howver he did believe that peace and love prosper over bickering and pointing fingers.

Just because SOME Catholic people might hold the church over God, does not give anybody the right to assume that every Catholic does. Nor the right to slander them.

Jesus himself said 'Honour thy mother and father'. Mary was HIS mother.

 

[sitwatcher]

Peter was given power above the rest of the disciples in the forming of the church, because of his unshakeable faith in Christ as being the one true Son of God.

To say to someone 'you are not worthy, you are misguided, you are wrong', when they clearly repent in Christ, is actually saying 'Because you have a reminder of your faith, an ornament of Mary, or a belief that their should be a leader of the church (a belief Jesus himself held), you are not Christian. You do not believe what I believe'. Jesus didn't tell us an exact way the church should be run. Howver he did believe that peace and love prosper over bickering and pointing fingers.

Just because SOME Catholic people might hold the church over God, does not give anybody the right to assume that every Catholic does. Nor the right to slander them.

Jesus himself said 'Honour thy mother and father'. Mary was HIS mother.

Okay I will honor my mother and father by making an altar of them in the house having statues of my mother and bow down to it. I will pray to their statues.

 

[Spartacus1122]

Okay I will honor my mother and father by making an altar of them in the house having statues of my mother and bow down to it. I will pray to their statues.

I read this.
Then looked at my dog.

Then read it again.
So I read it to my dog.

He laughed.

And now if you excuse me, I've got statues to sculpt.

 

[Mediate]

You do that. And when you are done hating people for silly, silly little things, and decide to come back to loving people for the BIG things that they stand for, then you might see.

this is petty.

 

[sitwatcher]

I read this.
Then looked at my dog.

Then read it again.
So I read it to my dog.

He laughed.

And now if you excuse me, I've got statues to sculpt.

God bless you brother. I know God has bestowed you with great and wonderful ideas. I know God loved you so much that He is able to provide you with all your needs. God loves you so much that He has done so many kind things to you. I know that God is so faithfull with your life because he cannot deny His faithfulness. God loves you so much that he is telling you nice things through the bible. God loves you sooo much as muchh as He loves me too.

I love you brother.

 

[rainacorn]

Nice try in splitting hair.
Major Fail.

(Matthew 16:13-20), Jesus asks, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” The disciples give various answers. When he asks, "Who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter answers, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." In turn, Jesus declares Peter to be "blessed" for having recognized Jesus' true identity and attributes this recognition to a divine revelation. Then Jesus addresses Simon by "Peter" (Petros [rock] in Greek, Petras in Latin) and said to him, "On this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it."

Um... are you going to explain how this couldn't possibly mean anything other than Peter is the first pope and the Catholic church is absolutely correct in all things forever and ever?

 

[Mediate]

He built the church upon Peter, and Peter's unshakeable faith. Point is, Catholic's follow Jesus too.

 

[rainacorn]

He built the church upon Peter, and Peter's unshakeable faith. Point is, Catholic's follow Jesus too.

I'm not arguing that.

Could you please stop making accusations against everyone who posts a question? That's really no better than what you claim others are doing.

I want to understand the interpretation. HOW does it prove that Peter is supposed to be the first pope rather than just the example for what it takes to lead a church?

 

[Philos]

Saying 'you are wrong, you are blind', is quite a vindictive and un-christian thing to do and I think some people are owed an apology here.

I'm confused by this statement. Was it Un-Christian for the Lord to say that to the Pharisees and Scribes in Matthew 23? Well yes, it may be un-Christian but it is Christlike if done in truth and love. If you see someone in error and you try to correct them so that they can be free in the truth and they will not listen, and you come to them another time and they yet to not listen, then shouldn't we for the sake of those who look up to him call him out so that they can see the truth, even if he will not? It's actually more un-Christlike to speak nothing when we see a Christian in error and say nothing or even tolerate it.

Come on, man, would you really see someone sleeping in a burning house and not call out to them to get out?

 

[Mediate]

I wasnt making any accusations Rainacorn. I am simply pointing out, if Catholic believe Peter is the pope, who are you to try to insinuate their faith is wrong?

And Philos, as I have mentioned, many, many, many times before. That is what Catholics believe. That is what they believe. It came before your denomination, no doubt. they don't want to hear how their faith is wrong. Jesus was Jesus, he had a right to judge. He had a right to point fingers. And he had a right to be authoritative when he did so. We, do not have that authority. The Catholic church is what was set up by the Romans and Peter. Peter was the pope, and that's what Catholics believe.

You wouldnt like me to continually bash you, and slander you, and hate on you, and tell you you are going to burn for your beliefs. It makes no difference whether you believe in Pope or not, as long as you believe in what Christ is. The Son of God, and the Messiah.

You guys will try anything to shift blame and twist words.

 

[Spartacus1122]

I want to understand the interpretation. HOW does it prove that Peter is supposed to be the first pope rather than just the example for what it takes to lead a church?

This might sound crazy, but you could research it yourself. Heck, even Wiki has a decent account of St. Peter, and how he became known as the "founder" of the CCh. (as believed by Catholics of course). Christ's words (as mentioned earlier) are indicative that Peter was to be the first "stone" (hence the name).
Therefore, being the first "authoritive" image of Christianity, after Christ's departure, Peter is viewed as the first pontiff. That's all.

Beyond that, take into account the events of the time, and that occurred upon the fall of Rome and both empires, the lingering practices of paganism, barbarian hordes, the Huns, and Islam, and one can understand why the need to structuralize and organize Christianity helped preserve and protect Christian Europe.

One cannot blindly read scriptures, without studying the history that goes with them.
I hope this clarifies things a bit more for you.
Cheers.

 

[Mediate]

The bible, can have many different contexts. It speaks to people in different ways. If someone believes in Christ, that really, should be all that matters when it boils down. Do they follow the commandments, do they trust in Christ, and do they repent and worship God.

These little discrepencies and translations make little difference.

If you look at the translation, 'petros', is what Jesus was directly naming Simon. It means 'rock'. Whether or not he physically meant 'YOU WILL FOUND THE CHURCH'. Peter did it anyway.

 

[Philos]

Um... are you going to explain how this couldn't possibly mean anything other than Peter is the first pope and the Catholic church is absolutely correct in all things forever and ever?

May I say something? In the Law we see the Lord making an everlasting covenant with the children of Israel. They are to walk in His Ways and abide in His Law, and He would bless and protect and prosper them. We see their history, all the idolatry they partook in, and how the Lord rejected most of them, even led them into captivity. We get to the time of Jesus. These people that the Lord made an everlasting covenant with, this same Lord called them the children of the devil, cursed the nation, and said that they would see Him no longer til they say Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD. What happened? A remnant broke off of Israel, they were received in the New and Perfect Covenant, as well as all in the nations who believes and receives. Paul comes to let us know that it is not the children of Abraham's flesh that are the children of the promise, but the children of Abraham's faith. Seems pretty clear, right?

Let's say Cephas was in fact the first Pope of the Universal and Apostolic Church. The Lord blessed Him because of His faith, and because of the revelation God gave him. The guy was very poor, it is assumed he never had a home like His Lord. He didn't dwell in a palace or wear fine clothes or jewels, He was a poor fishermen who spent his life proclaiming the Good Tidings of the Lord to the Circumcised. Look at what he wrote, look at what he preached.

Now compare Peter to the Popes we know of today. Do they match? No.Just as the Jews forfeited their inheritance and favor with God because they did not continue in the faith of Abraham, so Catholics do the same if they do not continue in the faith of Peter. The Lord gave the children of Israel an everlasting covenant, yet He rejected them and cursed the nation and gave that covenant only to a remnant, even speaking that being a child of Abraham was not enough to receive favor with God. John spoke that, so did Paul.

Just because you are a Pope, or just because you are a Catholic and has been baptized in the church and has done all the rituals, it does not mean you are in favor with God. The Lord spoke, only he who does the will of His Father will enter the kingdom of Heaven, and only those who do the will of His Father, who hears the word of God and do it, are His brothers.

 

[Philos]

You made a lot of unrighteous judgment in your post Mediate. You said Jesus was Jesus, we are not, but aren't we commanded to walk as He walked? You said He had the authority we do not, but didn't He give us that authority in His name? And it makes a lot of differences, because you gotta realizing that believing Jesus is Christ and Son of God, it isn't enough. You can believe all you want, the devil does and tremble. It may be what Catholics believe, it doesn't mean that's what the Lord taught, and if it isn't it needs to be corrected so they won't be held back by traditions and error, because that will end up destroying them. Why are you tolerating error?