did Christ retrun in AD 70? Matthew 24

[1still_waters]

1. So you believe the moment paul heard this every man on earth heard the gospel? How could that be??
2. Does not scripture state that the creatures of heaven looked at what Christ did with great anticipation? Could it not be he is speaking of heavenly creatures and not man?

Paul did not say every nation heard the gospel. You can't even believe that. for no one in the america's at this time would have heard the gospel. Unless your a mormon and believe as they do and believe Chjrist came to them.

or Paul could also be refering to his letter of romans 1. that no man has an excuse. that all men know they are rightly condemned.

Lol there you go NOT taking it literally

It says...

23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

First of Paul didn't hear this. He said it as an inspired writer of Bible.

You say maybe it means spiritual creatures. Well NO, it says EVERY creature. So a strictly 'literal' interpretation as you seem to call for, would imply EVERY creature, spiritual or physical heard it. Or doesn't EVERY mean EVERY?

Finally you say that Paul didn't say every nation heard the gospel. Well, EVERY CREATURE means EVERY CREATURE, whether in Israel, America, Antarctica. There are creatures in every nation.

Again all this applies if one is going to demand 'literal' of EVERY text.

 

[meecha]

EG.....do you believe that a star called wormwood will literally crash into the earth and only kill one third of it's inhabitants? Do you believe that the moon will literally turn to blood before the second coming and that stars will fall out of the sky? Do you believe that trees will clap their hands? Do you believe that Jesus is a fluffy lamb? or maybe a lion? or perhaps even a door? since Revelation is prophesy surely you take these things literally? or do you think that maybe the prophets use idiom and hyperbole? and if so isn't biblical exegesis about understanding the original viewpoint of the original recipients before starting to impose a 21st century worldview on an ancient text?
you say you take the prophets literally....so how do you interpret Is 19.1 when the Lord comes on a swift cloud to Eygpt.....ie past history. HOw do you square the account of Saul's death in 1 Sam 31 with Davids description in Ps 18 where David says the foundations of the earth were laid bare? ! Sam says that SAul just got his lad to run him through with a sword but David says the Lord laid the foundations of the earth bare.....isn't that a bit over the top?

 

[iamsoandso]

"do you believe you will literally go to heaven"?????????

 

[1still_waters]

My main point to EG and others is this. Some texts on face value, look like they are saying something, that they really aren't saying. But we can't see this IF we just jump to 'taking it literally' all the time. One prime example is the verse I quoted in

Col 1:23

23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

A hyper-literalist is going to read that and think Paul is saying even Native Americans and Eskimos heard the gospel at the time Paul wrote this. Because EVERY creature IS EVERY creature.

The hyper literalist is going to actually misinterpret this verse and many like it, all in the name of being oh so so 'literal'.

They may even end up cutting off a hand or plucking out an eye!

Matthew 5

29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

 

[iamsoandso]

literally do you think the father is going to pick up a sea shell at the beach and put it up to his ear and then find another one and listen into it and say to himself "wow they both are going "whooooooow in my ears ,,,,,,"im gonna put the two of them together and tell meeka that's heaven",,,,,,,,well just the same the "literal heaven god spoke of",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,is the same as the literal thing we think he said,,,,,,,,,,,,,"draw your line go to the metaphorical heaven",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[1still_waters]

The thing which separates the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. The God of David, moses and Peter. The God of Still water, and worthysoul from all other Gods is God can prophesy, And what God prophesies literally comes true. We can symbolise nostradumouses prophesies and make them come true. If God symbolised his own prophesies, he is no different than the God who nostradomous follows and gets his prophesy from.

That is why I reject any interpretation of prophesy which is not literally fulfilled. [/B]

Cool then you agree everything up to the millenium is accomplished.

Rev 1

1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

You said you take prophecy literally. Well 2000 years ago-ish, he said that stuff in Revelation would happen to THEM soon. And you said you take it for what it is. So SOON musta meant SOON.

Soon doesn't mean far away.

Maybe you and I agree on more than I realize. :O

That is assuming you take soon literally.

 

[iamsoandso]

john 5;39,,,,,,,,,,,,,here is what you have misses,,,,,,,"they are they which testify of me",,,,,,,if thy right eye offend the,,,,cut it off from the church,,,,,,,"cut of they right hand",,,,,,,,,if the right hand of you offend you ,,,,,,,,,"the church",,,,,,,,,,,the one who is acting in your behalf offend you,,,,,,,,,,"cut it off",,,,,,,,,,you think to reason through the scripture to stand in your works,,,,,,,,,,,,,but look close at john 5;39 they were to testify to Christ,from gen to rev.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the father was telling Christ his son what he wanted him to do ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"never was he telling you",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[meecha]

Cool then you agree everything up to the millenium is accomplished.

Rev 1

1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

You said you take prophecy literally. Well 2000 years ago-ish, he said that stuff in Revelation would happen to THEM soon. And you said you take it for what it is. So SOON musta meant SOON.

Soon doesn't mean far away.

Maybe you and I agree on more than I realize. :O

That is assuming you take soon literally.

I guarantee EG does not take "soon" or "at hand" literally

 

[iamsoandso]

there is much being left out of this great speech,,,,,,,,,,see rev.1; 19 ,,,you see in all reality rev. is given to john in the year ad 96,,,not ad 70 for one,and this post is about ad "70",,,,,,,,,so all others are jumping post,,,,,,,,,,and second in rev 1;19 Christ himself states to john to write the things that "are" present tense to john ad 96,,,,,,,,,,,that you have seen(past),,,, "the things that are(present tense to john in ad 96),and the things that are to shortly come to pass,,,,,,,,,,,,"future to john in ad 96",,,,,,,,,,,,never ,never believe any man who says revelations is a future prophecy,,always believe the words of the very Christ who said in rev. 1;19 to john that they were things he saw(past),,,things that are(present),,,,,,,,,and things that must shortly come to pass ( after ad 96),,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"every time believe Christ over a man",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[Crossfire]

If the events written in the book of Revelation occured in 70 A.D. then I have the following question to ask; where then were the two witnesses that called fire down from heaven and the horrible earthquake mentioned in chapter 11, verses 1-14?

 

[meecha]

If the events written in the book of Revelation occured in 70 A.D. then I have the following question to ask; where then were the two witnesses that called fire down from heaven and the horrible earthquake mentioned in chapter 11, verses 1-14?

I recommend david chiltons Days of Vengence commentary on Revelation. It will take you a few months to get through but your question and many others like it will be answered.

 

[Ariel82]

All of the prophets "wrote down" what was given them by YHWH, and much of it is the same message in different words, but it was not common for prophets to quote others. Were this the case there would be a lot less prophets..........Again, the time Yeshua, Jesus, was in the Temple, He announced in reading from Isaiah about the content, Today this prophecy is fulfilled. Also, when we think about it, He was not actually quoting so much as He was reading Scripture in the assembly. I hope there is not a hair being split in my future...God bless all in Jesus, Yeshua, amen.

lol no hair splitting for me, you seem to do it so well.

to me quoting and reading from the prophets would be the same thing since you aren't changing what they say.

Daniel refers to Jeremiah in Dan 9: 2,

Jesus quotes scripture back at Satan in the desert.

1 Corinthians 9:9
For it is written in the law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain.” Is it oxen God is concerned about?

Galatians 3:13
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree” ),

there are more examples but its kind of off topic, we can discuss it on another thread if you like.

there would not be less prophets.

the Gospel message does not change, its the PEOPLE they speak to that change. the prophets gave the same message but in a manner that was appropriate to their audience. they ALL spoke of God's will and His purpose for humanity. They ALL pointed to Jesus Christ and His redeeming work. They spoke of the Law and the Gospel according to the needs of the hearers and the will of God to shape, mold and call them to His eternal plan.

 

[Ariel82]

If the events written in the book of Revelation occured in 70 A.D. then I have the following question to ask; where then were the two witnesses that called fire down from heaven and the horrible earthquake mentioned in chapter 11, verses 1-14?

wait I thought we were talking about Matthew 24, when did we jump to Revelation?

Its kind of making the assumption that they are speaking of the same event and I assert that its not completely true. Revelation goes beyond the scope of Matthew 24.

Matthew 24 has been fulfilled but not all of Revelation has.

 

[Ariel82]

My main point to EG and others is this. Some texts on face value, look like they are saying something, that they really aren't saying. But we can't see this IF we just jump to 'taking it literally' all the time. One prime example is the verse I quoted in

Col 1:23

23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

I always took that verse literally and believe that God teaches us things as we sleep through angels because of these verses:

Psalm 19

New King James Version (NKJV)



1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
And the firmament shows His handiwork.
2 Day unto day utters speech,
And night unto night reveals knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language
Where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line[a] has gone out through all the earth,
And their words to the end of the world.



or that He has it built into us His Laws. Children have a sense of fairness and injustice when they are not treated equally to another child that no one has to teach them. I believe the world learns of the Law of God but only Christ teaches of His Grace and mercy.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My main point to EG and others is this. Some texts on face value, look like they are saying something, that they really aren't saying. But we can't see this IF we just jump to 'taking it literally' all the time. One prime example is the verse I quoted in

Col 1:23

23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

My main point is the verse you are quoting is NOT prophesy, thus does not fit your own example. There are different forms of language in scripture. There is stated fact, There is prophesy, There is poetic language. Not all are to be interpreted the same.

Prophesy is ALWAYS interpreted literally. When God says something will happen, even if you uses symbolic terms to represent people and nations, The things which will happen WILL happen just the way God said they will, if they do not. God is not a very good prophet.

A hyper-literalist is going to read that and think Paul is saying even Native Americans and Eskimos heard the gospel at the time Paul wrote this. Because EVERY creature IS EVERY creature.

The hyper literalist is going to actually misinterpret this verse and many like it, all in the name of being oh so so 'literal'.

They may even end up cutting off a hand or plucking out an eye!

Matthew 5

29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

Wow. No, A person who understand language and the type of writting being used would understand paul was saying the gospel is being preached (aorist tense, not past tense) to every creature. niether examples you used are prophetic language, thus your examples do not fit. Prophesy is taken literally. If Not, God is a liar and unable to prophesy, they only reason one would have to symbolise prophesy is the prophesy and their belief of what it means does not match up.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG.....do you believe that a star called wormwood will literally crash into the earth and only kill one third of it's inhabitants? Do you believe that the moon will literally turn to blood before the second coming and that stars will fall out of the sky? Do you believe that trees will clap their hands? Do you believe that Jesus is a fluffy lamb? or maybe a lion? or perhaps even a door? since Revelation is prophesy surely you take these things literally? or do you think that maybe the prophets use idiom and hyperbole? and if so isn't biblical exegesis about understanding the original viewpoint of the original recipients before starting to impose a 21st century worldview on an ancient text?

What do I believe? I believe John and other prophets used their own language to explain something they saw.

Do I believe 1/3 of the earth will be destroyed. Yes. God said it would. Why would God say this is going to happen if it is not? This does not make sense.

Do I believe they stars will fall? Yes. Are they literal stars or comets falling to earth? I don't know, John explained what he saw.

Do I believe John saw flying locusts which shot flaming arrows out of their mouths, Yes! Look at the helecopters in the military we have today, If yoy were john, how would you explain them?

you say you take the prophets literally....so how do you interpret Is 19.1 when the Lord comes on a swift cloud to Eygpt.....ie past history. HOw do you square the account of Saul's death in 1 Sam 31 with Davids description in Ps 18 where David says the foundations of the earth were laid bare? ! Sam says that SAul just got his lad to run him through with a sword but David says the Lord laid the foundations of the earth bare.....isn't that a bit over the top?

Ps 18 is not prophesy, Ps 18 speaks of God delivering david from ALL his enemies. How you get that to mean saul is beyond me..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Cool then you agree everything up to the millenium is accomplished.

Rev 1

1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

You said you take prophecy literally. Well 2000 years ago-ish, he said that stuff in Revelation would happen to THEM soon. And you said you take it for what it is. So SOON musta meant SOON.

Soon doesn't mean far away.

Maybe you and I agree on more than I realize. :O

That is assuming you take soon literally.

With God a day is like 1000 years. John was in heaven, He saw a multitude of things, in his mind, they all happened in a short amount of time. If all the things John saw happened "soon" then the earth should have already been wiped out and we should be in heaven now (actually none of us should have been born)



69 weeks literally was fulfilled. Why would I or anyone else symbolise the last week, and the 1000 years??

That is what the problem is with ammilenial belief. They literally take prophesy when it fits their believe, and symbolise prophesy where it does not fit.

If 69 weeks were literally fuilfilled,. It is prudent to interpret the last week literally. It makes no sense not too.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I guarantee EG does not take "soon" or "at hand" literally

In Gods eyes, It will happen soon. and the things are at hand..

In what John saw. They did happen soon or they were at hand, Put yourself in Johns shoes. and imagine you saw those things, how would you right them down??

 

[1still_waters]

If the events written in the book of Revelation occured in 70 A.D. then I have the following question to ask; where then were the two witnesses that called fire down from heaven and the horrible earthquake mentioned in chapter 11, verses 1-14?

Boy I dunno. But Jesus said that would happen soon/near/quickly, so like anything else Jesus said, I can take him at his word that it happened.

No need to go on a wild goose chase through books outside the Bible to try and show it happened.

Jesus said it would happen soon. So I take him at his word. It happened! Just like anything else we see in the Bible.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

wait I thought we were talking about Matthew 24, when did we jump to Revelation?

Its kind of making the assumption that they are speaking of the same event and I assert that its not completely true. Revelation goes beyond the scope of Matthew 24.

Matthew 24 has been fulfilled but not all of Revelation has.

Neither matt 24 or rev has been fulfilled. Mankind was not able to wipe itself off the face of the earth in 70 AD. ROm did not have the power to even kill all jews (if if you are interpreting all flesh to mean jews) Not to mention. God said he would spare a remnant. So it would make sense for God to say all flesh would be killed if he did not intervene. It was not until the advent of nuclear technology that this part of matt 24 could possible even begin to be fulfilled.