did Christ retrun in AD 70? Matthew 24

[meecha]

I love how people approach some of these texts and Gentile it all up, not even thinking about the OT stuff the original readers would have thought of when Jesus made certain references..you know like 'coming on the clouds' *cough* Isaiah 19:1 *cough*

When we just jump in to this without regarding the original hearers frame of reference we can automatically think coming on clouds means jockeying on to a cloud and saddling it up for a good ride....

*cough* Isaiah 19:1*cough*

I find that Dispys are reluctant to get into the texts they confidently assume teach their position. eg Peters refusal to engage in any discussion on aion and kosmos. The word Ostrich comes to mind.




Originally Posted by IMINJC

cronjecj

First of all we know that the Lord didn't return in AD 70. Those who subscribe to this false doctrine explain some type of figurative return in heaven that happened in AD 70. We all know his return is not figurative.

ACTS 1:11


then there are those who misrepresent you. Jesus' coming in judgement on Jerusalem is not figurative. It is real history. So when they read "the sign of the son of man in heaven" they think ....the son of man in the sky coming towards the earth in the way an aeroplane comes in to land....whereas we think ...the sign ( note that it is a sign) ( that ) the son of man is in heaven as in Ps 110 and Dan7 ie that Jesus has really ascended and is now ruling with all power.

 

[JaumeJ]

I find that Dispys are reluctant to get into the texts they confidently assume teach their position. eg Peters refusal to engage in any discussion on aion and kosmos. The word Ostrich comes to mind.




Originally Posted by IMINJC

cronjecj

First of all we know that the Lord didn't return in AD 70. Those who subscribe to this false doctrine explain some type of figurative return in heaven that happened in AD 70. We all know his return is not figurative.

ACTS 1:11


then there are those who misrepresent you. Jesus' coming in judgement on Jerusalem is not figurative. It is real history. So when they read "the sign of the son of man in heaven" they think ....the son of man in the sky coming towards the earth in the way an aeroplane comes in to land....whereas we think ...the sign ( note that it is a sign) ( that ) the son of man is in heaven as in Ps 110 and Dan7 ie that Jesus has really ascended and is now ruling with all power.

When I read the Word, it is rare YHWH's servants quote other prophets. The first quoting that comes to mind is when Yeshua read from Isaiah in the Temple, and then it was only to confirm that the prophecy read was completed by His having come. If people present what they have learned from reading Scripture prayerfully and meditatively, this is far more valuable than simply cutting and pasting Scriptures on a chosen theme by an intellectual. Just as it is written we should praise YHWH with understanding, so it is in relating our learning one to another. Cutting and pasting has its place perhaps with a parrot. Any text may be pasted and utilized without understanding or out of context, while when a follower of the Messiah explains what he or she understands it is worth far more than pasting the entire Word without understanding............

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ps 110
The Lord says to my Lord:
“ Sit at My right hand
Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”
2 The Lord will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, saying,
“ Rule in the midst of Your enemie

this is happening now...Jesus is ruling in the midst of His enemies until they are all crushed. But you think Satan is in charge...that is what Walvood and the Dispy crowd teach. The Lord is gathering His elect and crushing His enemies progressively in human history.

Ok now I am confused. First you say the nations are worshiping Jesus, Now you say they are not and go off on some tangent like this? Which is it??

Satan is in charge, How do I know? Hitler. Saddam Husein, how many world leaders do we have today who not only Hate God, but persecute those who follow God?

I repeat. No nation is worshiping God. Yet Scripture says at that time THEY ALL WILL. You can't twist it like your trying to do and convince people your right, you fall into trouble.

LOL....If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble?
If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?..Amos 3.6

But when the vine-growers saw him, they reasoned with one another, saying, ‘This is the heir; let us kill him so that the inheritance will be ours.’ 15 So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. What, then, will the [e]owner of the vineyard do to them? 16 He will come and destroy these vine-growers and will give the vineyard to others.

So Romans 11 means nothing then huh?
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith.



Is this not exactly what happened? Its final culmination being in AD 70? were they not cut off or destroyed? And their city left in ruins, JUST LIKE DANIEL And Christ said they would be?




Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,[f] if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?


Is not Paul warning us not to do exactly what you are doing? Is he not telling us not to be proud of our inheritance and judgmental of Isreal who are the natural branches? Is he not telling us that just as God cut them off, or destroyed the vinegrowers as you are correct in your saying, God can also graft them back in to the tree and make them the vinegrowers again if they repent?


25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion,

Is this not another warning for US not to be ignorant of the mystery of God, and not to think ourselves wise in our own opinions? And what is this mystery he speaks about?


that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,[g] as it is written:“The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”


Is Isreal not blind now? Was not their city and sanctuary destroyed in AD 70 because of this blind unbelief? Were not they cut off as natural branches, and we ourselves, the unnatural branches grafted in?

Is Paul not saying that there will be a time when WE, As unnatural branch gentiles, will at one time conplete our fulness, and at that time (because of our unbelief) Isreal will repent and be restored? As God, through his power, turnes Isreal back towards him, and stops their ungodliness? Why would paul say these things WILL happen if they are not true. And he is not talking about spiritual Isreal here, He is talking natural isreal. This is proven in the next verses.


28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.


Why are they enemies concerning the gospel? They rejected their messiah.

Why are they STILL CONSIDERED THE ELECT ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE? Because the promise was given to their fathers. and THESE PROMISES STILL STAND! There is no way to twist this, as you are trying to do!

HE will COME and destroy these vine growers and give the vineyard to others.

Which he did, But as the OT prophets, and Paul explains in romans, God will restor then, when he turnes their ungodliness away and they return to him. God has only given the vinefield to the gentiles for a time, this time will be fulfilled, And then ISREAL will be restored and grafted back in.

As I already showed Matt 24 is not about Isreal, it is about the world. Nation will come against nation. Many wars.. not Isreal, the world.


you havn't shown...you have merely asserted.

Nation against nation. Where is isreal in here? Isreal was not a nation in AD70, they were under roman rule and tyrany. This probes it. whether you see it or not/

God used a nation to punish them, he did not punish them himself. So your point makes no sense.

deut 28

49 “ The Lord will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as the eagle swoops down, a nation whose language you shall not understand, 50 a nation of fierce countenance who will have no respect for the old, nor show favor to the young. 51 Moreover, it shall eat the [ae]offspring of your herd and the produce of your ground until you are destroyed, who also leaves you no grain, new wine, or oil, nor the increase of your herd or the young of your flock until they have caused you to perish. 52 It shall besiege you in all your [af]towns until your high and fortified walls in which you trusted come down throughout your land, and it shall besiege you in all your [ag]towns throughout your land which the Lord your God has given you. 53 Then you shall eat the [ah]offspring of your own body, the flesh of your sons and of your daughters whom the Lord your God has given you, during the siege and the distress by which your enemy will [ai]oppress you. 54 The man who is [aj]refined and very delicate among you [ak]shall be hostile toward his brother and toward the wife [al]he cherishes and toward the rest of his children who remain, 55 so that he will not give even one of them any of the flesh of his children which he will eat, since he has nothing else left, during the siege and the distress by which your enemy will [am]oppress you in all your [an]towns. 56 The [ao]refined and delicate woman among you, who would not venture to set the sole of her foot on the ground for delicateness and [ap]refinement, [aq]shall be hostile toward the husband [ar]she cherishes and toward her son and daughter, 57 and toward her afterbirth which issues from between her [as]legs and toward her children whom she bears; for she will eat them secretly for lack of anything else, during the siege and the distress by which your enemy will [at]oppress you in your [au]towns.


Now read Josephus and tell me this does not exactly describe Jerusalem in 70AD...who did it grateful? the LORD will bring a nation against you

Yes, you described exactly what I said. But does not the OT, as I said and proved, say that God will also punish the natgion that did this, and restore isreal to her land?

Again, you have to ignore half the Ot and romans 11 to believe what you believe. I can't do that!

 

[Abiding]

A few things to think of.

1. Jesus did not come in judgment, he came to save, He stated so himself.
2. Dan 7 speaks of a whole list of things. not one event. Also remember what Daniel 7 says when the angel interpreted his vision.

The king will recieve the kingdom for all ages.
All nations will honor and worship him.

neither of these two things have happened yet. Thus these things could not have happened. In 70 AD, rome did not turn and worship Christ as king, as well as all other nations on earth. so these things did not happen in 70 AD.

where did Jesus say His kingdom was?
Acts 2:5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

where did Jesus say His kingdom was?
Acts 2:5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

What does this have to do with "All nations worshiping him"?

It did not say a few people from the nations, it says the nations themselves.

 

[1still_waters]

Lol so every doesnt mean every in the verse from Abiding, but all does mean all in eg's verse.

Ok

 

[1still_waters]

Watching Dispies interpreting these verses is like watching someone trying to bake a cake with plastic eggs and they don't realize they ain't real eggs.

 

[Ariel82]

interesting I don't find it all that rare for prophets to quote former prophets in the Scriptures. Even Jesus quoted the OT. all you have to do is read the whole book. Is there a single prophet that did not repeat or expand upon what another before them had said?

not that I've read.

so we have one complain when you speak from your heart that you don't quote scripture and you have another who complains when you do quote scripture because you are not speaking from your heart.

how .... ironic...

 

[JaumeJ]

When I read the Word, it is rare YHWH's servants quote other prophets. The first quoting that comes to mind is when Yeshua read from Isaiah in the Temple, and then it was only to confirm that the prophecy read was completed by His having come. If people present what they have learned from reading Scripture prayerfully and meditatively, this is far more valuable than simply cutting and pasting Scriptures on a chosen theme by an intellectual. Just as it is written we should praise YHWH with understanding, so it is in relating our learning one to another. Cutting and pasting has its place perhaps with a parrot. Any text may be pasted and utilized without understanding or out of context, while when a follower of the Messiah explains what he or she understands it is worth far more than pasting the entire Word without understanding............

interesting I don't find it all that rare for prophets to quote former prophets in the Scriptures. Even Jesus quoted the OT. all you have to do is read the whole book. Is there a single prophet that did not repeat or expand upon what another before them had said?

not that I've read.

so we have one complain when you speak from your heart that you don't quote scripture and you have another who complains when you do quote scripture because you are not speaking from your heart.

how .... ironic...

All of the prophets "wrote down" what was given them by YHWH, and much of it is the same message in different words, but it was not common for prophets to quote others. Were this the case there would be a lot less prophets..........Again, the time Yeshua, Jesus, was in the Temple, He announced in reading from Isaiah about the content, Today this prophecy is fulfilled. Also, when we think about it, He was not actually quoting so much as He was reading Scripture in the assembly. I hope there is not a hair being split in my future...God bless all in Jesus, Yeshua, amen.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Lol so every doesnt mean every in the verse from Abiding, but all does mean all in eg's verse.

Ok

what does this have to do with anything? He responded to my post where I asked where ALL nations were bowing and worshiping God by showing a verse were a bunch of jews who came from all nations were in jerusalem,

and you want to mock me? I am prety amazed!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Watching Dispies interpreting these verses is like watching someone trying to bake a cake with plastic eggs and they don't realize they ain't real eggs.

wow, so I take Gods word literally. and all it is actually a plastic egg? I tell ya man, I respect you and your opinions. But your last two comments leave much to be desired.

 

[1still_waters]

wow, so I take Gods word literally. and all it is actually a plastic egg? I tell ya man, I respect you and your opinions. But your last two comments leave much to be desired.

No one takes ALL of the Bible"literally".

Even you don't take "soon" as "literal" in Revelation 1 to its original hearers. Seeing you think it means 2000+ years after it was written.

You don't believe every nation had the gospel preached to it even though Paul says it is so.

Col 1

23*if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.


You still have both hands and eyes I assume. More proof you don't take ALL things "literally"


And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

 

[1still_waters]

People who appeal to this pious "literalism" in ALL things are often the most guilty of not taking things literal and even inserting things in the text that aren't even clearly there. Such as a gap in Daniels 70 weeks. There is no gap literally put in there by Daniel, yet our pious "literal"ists stick one in there.

 

[1still_waters]

wow, so I take Gods word literally. and all it is actually a plastic egg? I tell ya man, I respect you and your opinions. But your last two comments leave much to be desired.

Thought I'd try something different. We obviously disagree on this, but I'm sure we agree on something.


So thought I'd find where we agree and amen that.


Link----->. http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/43614-tithe-4.html#post735998

 

[iamsoandso]

yes,cron that's a good question some may say "whats he thinking?",,,,,,,,but turn the whole story around,,,,,,,and look again,,,,,look at rev. 20;7-8,,,,,,,,,satin shall be loosed out,ect.,ect,,,and go out and deceive the nations,,,gog magog,,,ect.,,,,notice this is after the mill kingdom,,,,,,,,,,(after) Jesus is come in his second coming,,,now go back to Matthew 8;29,,,notice they ask him if he is come to torment them before their time,,,,,,,,,,(day of judgement),,,,,,,,and so he cast them into the swine ect,ect. showing he agreed with them "it was not the day of judgement",,,,,,,,,,then go to 2peter,2;4,,,,,,,,"chains of darkness,,,unto the day of judgement",,,then to 2peter 3;7,,,,,,,"day of judgment (and),,the perdition of men",,,"notice he sepperates the two (day of judgement(,,and (the peradition of men),,,,,,now here is where the scripture will come into play "no man knoweth the hour,no not the angels in heaven nor the son of man,,,but the father only",,,,,,,,but again remember "for the end shall not come lest there be a great falling away first and then the man of sin reviled",,,,,(notice he doesn't know when it's going to take place,,,but he does know when it is not),,,,,,,,,,notice the demons ask the lord,,,notice they did not know when the day of judgment (was) but that he was there and it was not yet time,,(they knew it was not the day),,,,,,,,,,now look back at rev.20;7,,,,,,,,he is loosed,,,,,,,,,,then he deceives,,verse 8,,,,,,,,,,,then the devil is cast into the lake of fire,,,verse 10,,,,,,,and only after that are the books opened and the book and they are judged "day of judgment",,,,,,,,,now look back at rev. 20;1-6,,,,,,,,,,,look at what he says about the "1000 years,and the ones raised before and after",,,,,,,,,,so Christ comes and the dead in Christ are raised,,,,,and they rein with Christ a 1000 years but the judgment is not yet come see rev. 20 verse12,,,,,,,,,then after the 1000 years the rest of the dead are raised,,,,,,,,,,,,"second Resurrection",,,,,see verse rev. 20;6,,,,,,,,to (verify this order of events),,,,,,,,,,,,,then Lucifer is loosed and he deceives and then the judgment,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but cron you are correct ,,,,,,,,,,"this is his third coming",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[iamsoandso]

cron he din not return in ad 70,,,,,,,look at what he said to Mary,,,,,,,,,"touch me not for i have not yet ascended unto the father",,,,,,,,,and then look at what he said to Thomas,,,,,,,,"touch me and see that a spirit hath not flesh and bone",,,,,,,,,,, "you cannot touch me Mary untill i ascend to my father in heaven and Thomas you can touch me for i have returned in my second coming",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No one takes ALL of the Bible"literally".

Even you don't take "soon" as "literal" in Revelation 1 to its original hearers. Seeing you think it means 2000+ years after it was written.

Prophesy is always taken literally. God might use symbolic terms (such as animals) to signify literal things (like kingdoms) but when God says something is going to happen, it literally happens. No prophesy fulfilled this far has been symbolized or figuratively fulfilled. All prophesy up to the time of Christ was LITERALLY fulfilled. why would god all of a sudden change prophesy and make it symbolic?

You don't believe every nation had the gospel preached to it even though Paul says it is so.

Col 1

23*if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

1. So you believe the moment paul heard this every man on earth heard the gospel? How could that be??
2. Does not scripture state that the creatures of heaven looked at what Christ did with great anticipation? Could it not be he is speaking of heavenly creatures and not man?

Paul did not say every nation heard the gospel. You can't even believe that. for no one in the america's at this time would have heard the gospel. Unless your a mormon and believe as they do and believe Chjrist came to them.

or Paul could also be refering to his letter of romans 1. that no man has an excuse. that all men know they are rightly condemned.

Even if non of these are the cases. Again. No matter of prophesy was figuratively fullfilled up till the time of Christ. Even the jews in the OT were not the only people who could be saved. what of all the gentile nations and people who came to Christ under the same gospel we have today??

This is where me and scofieldites differ. I do not believe anyone was saved under law. and I do not believe Isreal will return to law in the tribulation period. Everyone from adam till the last man alive on earth will be saved the same way.

You still have both hands and eyes I assume. More proof you don't take ALL things "literally"

I take ALL prophesy literally. I have no reason not too.

And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

This is not prophesy, thus does not apply.

The thing which separates the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. The God of David, moses and Peter. The God of Still water, and worthysoul from all other Gods is God can prophesy, And what God prophesies literally comes true. We can symbolise nostradumouses prophesies and make them come true. If God symbolised his own prophesies, he is no different than the God who nostradomous follows and gets his prophesy from.

That is why I reject any interpretation of prophesy which is not literally fulfilled.

 

[iamsoandso]

do you want those scriptures????????"touch me not",,,,,,,john 20;17,,,,,,,,,,,,,touch me for i have ascended and returned,,,,,,,luke 24;39,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

People who appeal to this pious "literalism" in ALL things are often the most guilty of not taking things literal and even inserting things in the text that aren't even clearly there. Such as a gap in Daniels 70 weeks. There is no gap literally put in there by Daniel, yet our pious "literal"ists stick one in there.

There is no gap in YOUR OPINION.

After 69 weeks, messiah cut off. That leaves one week or 7 years left. Which means the prince who is to come should have destroyed the sanctuary with in 7 years of the cross. Which means the wars and desolations ALL should have happened with 7 years. Which means the abomination should have happened within 7 years. Non of which did happen ( I hope even you can see this) which means no matter how you look at it. The first 69 weeks were fulfilled literally. and the last week or 7 years would be interpreted symbolically. Not only is there no precedence scriptural for this to happen. there is no reason to do so.

Again in daniels language,

1 Messiah is cut off (crucified) AFTER 69 weeks.
2. The prince of rome destroys city and sanctuary (happend 30 some years later,, which is over 4 weeks in daniels time according to this prophesy.) This means the destruction happend in week 74 according to daniels time frame
3. Wars and desolation of an unknown length are determined.
4. Prince makes a covenant (could not be Christ and the cross. That would be at the end of the 69th week, not before the destruction of the temple)
5. Abomination is commited.

all of these things would have to take place within 7 years AFTER messiah was cut off. or there is a gap of some sort. period

 

[1still_waters]

There is no gap in YOUR OPINION.

After 69 weeks, messiah cut off. That leaves one week or 7 years left. Which means the prince who is to come should have destroyed the sanctuary with in 7 years of the cross. Which means the wars and desolations ALL should have happened with 7 years. Which means the abomination should have happened within 7 years. Non of which did happen ( I hope even you can see this) which means no matter how you look at it. The first 69 weeks were fulfilled literally. and the last week or 7 years would be interpreted symbolically. Not only is there no precedence scriptural for this to happen. there is no reason to do so.

Again in daniels language,

1 Messiah is cut off (crucified) AFTER 69 weeks.
2. The prince of rome destroys city and sanctuary (happend 309 some years later)
3. Wars and desolation of an unknown length are determined.
4. Prince makes a covenant (could not be Christ and the cross. That would be at the end of the 69th week, not before the destruction of the temple)
5. Abomination is commited.

all of these things would have to take place within 7 years AFTER messiah was cut off. or there is a gap of some sort. period

Daniel doesn't say PUT GAP HERE.

It's your own interpretation that is inserting it.