did Christ retrun in AD 70? Matthew 24

[eternally-gratefull]

I always took that verse literally and believe that God teaches us things as we sleep through angels because of these verses:

Psalm 19

New King James Version (NKJV)



1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
And the firmament shows His handiwork.
2 Day unto day utters speech,
And night unto night reveals knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language
Where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line[a] has gone out through all the earth,
And their words to the end of the world.



or that He has it built into us His Laws. Children have a sense of fairness and injustice when they are not treated equally to another child that no one has to teach them. I believe the world learns of the Law of God but only Christ teaches of His Grace and mercy.

We can add another passage.

Rom 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse

No one who stands at the great white throne will have an excuse for rejecting the gospel of God. from adam until the last man standing, they will all be without excuse. One can not say this unless they had not heard and understood the things of God, including the gospel.

 

[Katy-follower]

What do I believe? I believe John and other prophets used their own language to explain something they saw.

Do I believe they stars will fall? Yes. Are they literal stars or comets falling to earth? I don't know, John explained what he saw.

Do I believe John saw flying locusts which shot flaming arrows out of their mouths, Yes! Look at the helecopters in the military we have today, If yoy were john, how would you explain them?

Yes. Imagine you are John and Helicopters don't exist yet. How would you describe them? He saw the future and tried his best to describe what he saw.

This is another interesting one...

Joel 2:4-5: "They have the appearance of horses; they gallop along like cavalry. With a noise like that of chariots they leap over the mountaintops"

 

[1still_waters]

With God a day is like 1000 years. John was in heaven, He saw a multitude of things, in his mind, they all happened in a short amount of time. If all the things John saw happened "soon" then the earth should have already been wiped out and we should be in heaven now (actually none of us should have been born)



69 weeks literally was fulfilled. Why would I or anyone else symbolise the last week, and the 1000 years??

That is what the problem is with ammilenial belief. They literally take prophesy when it fits their believe, and symbolise prophesy where it does not fit.

If 69 weeks were literally fuilfilled,. It is prudent to interpret the last week literally. It makes no sense not too.

Like you, I look at the greek too.

Did you know that in the Greek 1000 is actually 'a thousand'?

"A thousand" is grammatically different than the word 1000.

The Greek word is Chilioi. It means the plural of an uncertain affinity. Ie it ain't a definite number.

Again as far as the 70 weeks. There IS NOTHING in there about a gap. That is read in there due to an interpretation. My interpretation doesn't impose anything on it that isn't there in the first place.

It be like arguing with someone who says there is a gap between day four and five of creation, then them saying I need to prove there isn't a gap. Well they're the ones insertin something that ain't even there in the first place!

If God wanted a gap, he'd have said..YO put a gap in there! He didn't. So to put a gap in , is to add to prophecy and not take it 'literally'.

 

[1still_waters]

I recommend david chiltons Days of Vengence commentary on Revelation. It will take you a few months to get through but your question and many others like it will be answered.

Be careful with Chilton, he later apostatized in to hyper-preterism.

 

[meecha]

What do I believe? I believe John and other prophets used their own language to explain something they saw.

Do I believe 1/3 of the earth will be destroyed. Yes. God said it would. Why would God say this is going to happen if it is not? This does not make sense.
Do I believe they stars will fall? Yes. Are they literal stars or comets falling to earth? I don't know, John explained what he saw.

they can't be comets if the bible says they are stars can they? but even a comet falling on the earth would obliterate the whole planet. If a star got within shouting distance of the earth we would obviously have long become toast....so a literal star is going to kill more than a third of the population right?

Do I believe John saw flying locusts which shot flaming arrows out of their mouths, Yes! Look at the helecopters in the military we have today, If yoy were john, how would you explain them?

so locusts are not locusts ....they are helicopters..so its not literal then is it?
EG you have a problem with hermeneutics. You are reading the bible through the lens of your hermeneutic. And your hermeneutic says ...look around at today's world and then interpret scripture in light of what you see !!!

wrong

try this one instead. Read scripture and when you come across a symbol ...such as sun,moon stars or locust ....look at it's first appearances in scripture and see what they mean there eg gen 37.....then when you see "wormwood" in the OT you will know that John for example, is thinking about that reference. He is not seeing stars crashing into planets. Think Joseph's dream EG. Who was bowing down to Joseph? Jacob understood the symbols yes?

 

[meecha]

Be careful with Chilton, he later apostatized in to hyper-preterism.

true ...but the book was written beforehand. He went off the rails after he had a bad car accident.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Like you, I look at the greek too.

Did you know that in the Greek 1000 is actually 'a thousand'?

"A thousand" is grammatically different than the word 1000.

The Greek word is Chilioi. It means the plural of an uncertain affinity. Ie it ain't a definite number.

Again as far as the 70 weeks. There IS NOTHING in there about a gap. That is read in there due to an interpretation. My interpretation doesn't impose anything on it that isn't there in the first place.

It be like arguing with someone who says there is a gap between day four and five of creation, then them saying I need to prove there isn't a gap. Well they're the ones insertin something that ain't even there in the first place!

If God wanted a gap, he'd have said..YO put a gap in there! He didn't. So to put a gap in , is to add to prophecy and not take it 'literally'.

Yeah? why was the church a mystery?

Your interpretation does not fit. You have christ dieing at the end of the 69th week or you don't/ You need to make up your mind/.What about the 4th and final gentile empire? has it ended? are we at the end??

My interpretation takes Gods word literally. And does not distort what God said.

Your interpretation imposes a gap whether you like it or not. You have over 30 years inbetween the 69th and the end of your 70 weeks, You can't get out of that.

They killed Christ because they did not know he was also the suffering servant., God hid that from them for a reason. What is to say he did not do this for the same reason?? Why do you think the jews do not consider daniel inspired?

 

[1still_waters]

Yeah? why was the church a mystery?

Your interpretation does not fit. You have christ dieing at the end of the 69th week or you don't/ You need to make up your mind/.What about the 4th and final gentile empire? has it ended? are we at the end??

My interpretation takes Gods word literally. And does not distort what God said.

Your interpretation imposes a gap whether you like it or not. You have over 30 years inbetween the 69th and the end of your 70 weeks, You can't get out of that.

They killed Christ because they did not know he was also the suffering servant., God hid that from them for a reason. What is to say he did not do this for the same reason?? Why do you think the jews do not consider daniel inspired?

Lol you're making assumptions about what I believe based on your assumptions.

Listen, all I know is that Daniel didn't say put a gap in there. So I ain't puttin no gap in there.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

they can't be comets if the bible says they are stars can they? but even a comet falling on the earth would obliterate the whole planet. If a star got within shouting distance of the earth we would obviously have long become toast....so a literal star is going to kill more than a third of the population right?

Well, unlike you. I take God at his word. Is God God? Can he not have a star, or a nuclear weapon or anything fall from the sky which would look like a star which would not wipe out a third of the earth?

Why do you want to take what God said and say he can not do it? Do you not believe God has the power?

so locusts are not locusts ....they are helicopters..so its not literal then is it?
EG you have a problem with hermeneutics. You are reading the bible through the lens of your hermeneutic. And your hermeneutic says ...look around at today's world and then interpret scripture in light of what you see !!!

No. I interpret the word by what the person who wrote it would have seen. I just used the helecopter example because it makes sense. If I was born before aircraft was invented, I stillk would have interpreted that John saw something which flew and shot something out to kill armies. I just would not know what it was.

Again, Is there a precedent for God using symnbols to describe literal things? but the events actually happened? It is all over the OT.

wrong

try this one instead. Read scripture and when you come across a symbol ...such as sun,moon stars or locust ....look at it's first appearances in scripture and see what they mean there eg gen 37.....then when you see "wormwood" in the OT you will know that John for example, is thinking about that reference. He is not seeing stars crashing into planets. Think Joseph's dream EG. Who was bowing down to Joseph? Jacob understood the symbols yes?

It does not matter how you interpret wormwood, or whatever it is. The fact is 1/3 of the waters will be made lifeless. Or God is a liar.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Lol you're making assumptions about what I believe based on your assumptions.

Listen, all I know is that Daniel didn't say put a gap in there. So I ain't puttin no gap in there.

as I already showed, daniel did not have to say put a gap in there, the gap is assumed by what he said would happen AFTER the 69th week. which could not have happened in the final seven years,

this leaves us with two choices. make the last week a symbol and many yearts in length. Or understand the things daniel were told wopuld happen after the 69th week and before the 70th week infers there will be a period of time which will be in there, You know. the mystery, the church. the age of the gentile. liek i asked you, why was the church a mystery?

 

[1still_waters]

as I already showed, daniel did not have to say put a gap in there, the gap is assumed by what he said would happen AFTER the 69th week. which could not have happened in the final seven years,

this leaves us with two choices. make the last week a symbol and many yearts in length. Or understand the things daniel were told wopuld happen after the 69th week and before the 70th week infers there will be a period of time which will be in there, You know. the mystery, the church. the age of the gentile. liek i asked you, why was the church a mystery?

Only your interpretive assumption say something couldn't have happened. Only YOUR interpretation imposes a gap that ISN'T clearly there!

Should we start imposing billion year gaps between the days of creation so it fits our 'assumptions' on what we think the Earth is as far as age?

Seriously, this is the predicament you bring to the Bible when you start inserting gaps that aren't clearly placed there by God.

If the assumption don't fit, well then put in a gap! <--The dispensational hermeneutic for Bible understanding.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Only your interpretive assumption say something couldn't have happened. Only YOUR interpretation imposes a gap that ISN'T clearly there!

Should we start imposing billion year gaps between the days of creation so it fits our 'assumptions' on what we think the Earth is as far as age?

Seriously, this is the predicament you bring to the Bible when you start inserting gaps that aren't clearly placed there by God.

If the assumption don't fit, well then put in a gap! <--The dispensational hermeneutic for Bible understanding.

See this is the problem. You say there can;t be a gap. but your only reason is because you say daniel did not say it. You say it is not clearly there, when it is clearly there/.

After 69 weeks messiah cut off. Do you agree that Christ died at the end of the 69th week and not before the end?

Then the temple destroyed. 30 some years later. what is the problem with this.

Then wars and desolations will continue until a time determined. what time?

Then a covenant made with many

then the abomination.

how can all this happen in the final week? You can't explain it. because you do not want to believe it.

 

[1still_waters]

See this is the problem. You say there can;t be a gap. but your only reason is because you say daniel did not say it. You say it is not clearly there, when it is clearly there/.

After 69 weeks messiah cut off. Do you agree that Christ died at the end of the 69th week and not before the end?

Then the temple destroyed. 30 some years later. what is the problem with this.

Then wars and desolations will continue until a time determined. what time?

Then a covenant made with many

then the abomination.

how can all this happen in the final week? You can't explain it. because you do not want to believe it.

This is all really easier than folks make it.

After 62 weeks these things must happen.

1. Messiah cut off. (Accomplished)
2 .City and sanctuary destroyed. (Accomplished ad 70.)

3. There will be a war. (Roman Jewish war 66-73 AD)<--Notice that is SEVEN years.

4. Desolations decreed.

5. He will confirm a covenant/make a covenant. This can be translated confirm. This is to last one week. Which is seven years.

How long is the Jewish Roman war? Oh yeah. Seven years!

What was part of the covenant to Israel?

Obey him, keep the land. Disobey him, get kicked out. It's in Deut 28.

We're told the covenant would be confirmed for 7 years. The war lasted seven years. They got kicked out after 7 years. God's covenant curses were confirmed.

Oh one more loose end to tidy up.

Abomination of desolation on wing of the temple.

If you read your history, you'll know the Romans set up worship to their fake gods on a wing of the temple.

See, easy breezy!

All that happened after the 62nd week.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is all really easier than folks make it.

After 62 weeks these things must happen.

1. Messiah cut off. (Accomplished)
2 .City and sanctuary destroyed. (Accomplished ad 70.)

You have problems right here.

messiah cut off after 69th week.
City and sanctuary destroyed 30 some years later. The 70 years are already over, thus they did not happen within the 70 years like gabriel said.

And you say it is easy?

You said one war. Gabriel said wars and desolations (plural) yet you want to make it singular.

Nice try. It is not as easy as you said it was.

We will have to agree to disagree. I showed how the events after the 69 weeks and mathew 24 match perfectly; You disagree. Thats fine. But don;t just come out and say I am wrong, and see a real egg when it is just a plastic egg. You have not proven me wrong or even countered me, You have your opinion I have mine,

 

[1still_waters]

You have problems right here.

messiah cut off after 69th week.
City and sanctuary destroyed 30 some years later. The 70 years are already over, thus they did not happen within the 70 years like gabriel said.

And you say it is easy?

You said one war. Gabriel said wars and desolations (plural) yet you want to make it singular.

Nice try. It is not as easy as you said it was.

We will have to agree to disagree. I showed how the events after the 69 weeks and mathew 24 match perfectly; You disagree. Thats fine. But don;t just come out and say I am wrong, and see a real egg when it is just a plastic egg. You have not proven me wrong or even countered me, You have your opinion I have mine,

All Daniel says is that that stuff would happen after the 62nd week. It happened. After. The. 62nd week.

Again. It's easy.

 

[1still_waters]

You said one war. Gabriel said wars and desolations (plural) yet you want to make it singular.

Mmm nope it just says war.


26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

 

[Ariel82]

perhaps it would help to see the text Daniel is referring to remembering that Daniel was a slave in the Babylonian court ...

Jeremiah 25

4 And the Lord has sent to you all His servants the prophets, rising early and sending them, but you have not listened nor inclined your ear to hear. 5 They said, &#8216;Repent now everyone of his evil way and his evil doings, and dwell in the land that the Lord has given to you and your fathers forever and ever. 6 Do not go after other gods to serve them and worship them, and do not provoke Me to anger with the works of your hands; and I will not harm you.&#8217; 7 Yet you have not listened to Me,&#8221; says the Lord, &#8220;that you might provoke Me to anger with the works of your hands to your own hurt. 8 &#8220;Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts: &#8216;Because you have not heard My words, 9 behold, I will send and take all the families of the north,&#8217; says the Lord, &#8216;and Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, My servant, and will bring them against this land, against its inhabitants, and against these nations all around, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, a hissing, and perpetual desolations. 10 Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones and the light of the lamp. 11 And this whole land shall be a desolation and an astonishment, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.


12 &#8216;Then it will come to pass, when seventy years are completed, that I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity,&#8217; says the Lord; &#8216;and I will make it a perpetual desolation. 13 So I will bring on that land all My words which I have pronounced against it, all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah has prophesied concerning all the nations. 14 (For many nations and great kings shall be served by them also; and I will repay them according to their deeds and according to the works of their own hands.)&#8217;&#8221;

 

[Crossfire]

wait I thought we were talking about Matthew 24, when did we jump to Revelation?

Its kind of making the assumption that they are speaking of the same event and I assert that its not completely true. Revelation goes beyond the scope of Matthew 24.

Matthew 24 has been fulfilled but not all of Revelation has.

Ah, I missed that part.

Anyways, any time we read Matthew 24. we must take the Mark & Luke accounts of the Olivet discourse into consideration also. I personally find the Luke account interesting because in it, Christ makes what I believe to be a distinction between the near future and the far future, a time when the age of the Gentiles (the Great Commission / Church Age) is fulfilled.

 

[Ariel82]

oooo kaaay...

<psst> anyone want to tell me what the Olivet discourse is? I haven't read it in the Bible and I'm suppose to be studying for Microbiology test tomorrow and don't want to google it. you get all sorts of strange answers if you google a word. anyway back to what I'm suppose to be doing... but I'll probably scan through a few more threads.........

 

[peterT]

I called you nothing that was not written in the Bible already. And what flinging insults are you referring too?

i'm going back to ignoring unpleasant people who only display their bitterness and pettiness by flinging insults and doubt instead of doing as Jesus commanded which is too correct in love and patience.

I know where I stand in Christ. I am a child learning her Father's will and reading His word and fellowshipping with His children.


Personally I do not want to engage in a discussion with a person who can not hold an intelligent mature discussion about the topic without flinging insults in every other post.

It does not display the Fruits of the Spirit God has taught me to look for in His teachers.

James 3:17
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.

I recognize the fact there are many beliefs about what is meant from certain verses and much could be shared and learnt. sometimes we as Christians may not agree on small issues.

Do you mean one like this?

sigh....lets take out the filth and wash it with a little more scripture....

And something like this

Acts 7
51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, 53 who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”

I called your doctrine nonsense and dribble, and it is.

I called you nothing that you have not called me.
So if it is not the fruit of the spirit why are you doing it?
Or is that you just being a hypocrite?


I was hoping to see a man of God arise from this conversation, some kind of fruits and meats worthy of repentance from yourself.
I was hoping to see you humble yourself in the site of the lord so he could lift you up. And receive the word of the lord.

But no, nothing but you beating the same drum of rebellion disobedience/witchcraft after hearing the word of the Lord.

Do you think it was just in the children of Israel and the Scribes and Pharisees in the old days that had the ability to utterly corrupt themselves

Jesus said in Matt24 Take heed that no man deceive you.

One of us is deceived about Matt24.

It seems to me that one of us is becoming the foolish virgins.

And it’s not me.
For it reads like this in short

3-Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


4 -TAKE HEED THAT NO MAN DECEIVE YOU.


29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40-the one shall be taken, and the other left.

It has self-interpretation, Jesus comes at the end of the world, Immediately after the tribulation in the clouds then gathers together his elect, and it will be like in the days of Noah like a flood and one shall be taken, and the other left.

And you can twist it as much as you like, but its Jesus your twisting, because Jesus is the word.