The dead are asleep

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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#321
#321
assuming that the story of the rich man and poor lazarus is a parable does not change the reality that the story is expressing about the afterlife...

jesus' parables always used real life situations to teach a spiritual lesson...things that could actually have happened in the real world...

for example the prodigal son did not jump on a unicorn and fly back to his father...he went on foot...

jesus' parables describe realistic situations that can actually happen in real life...so to be consistent we have to conclude that jesus' story of the rich man and poor lazarus was giving an accurate description of what happens to the dead...
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#322
#322
Closemyeyes2cU said:
I believe death was described from one perspective in the old testament and from a different perspective in the new testament. If I were inside of a house and I described what that house looked like from the inside, and there was someone standing in the front yard and they described the house from the outside, we could both have accurate descriptions of the house, but they would be completely different descriptions. The old testament describes death more from mans point of view. They are describing the state of the body at death. The new testament describes death more from a spiritual point of view. It describes what happens to the spirit, not the body.

Ever notice how people who defend soul sleep seem to always go to the old testament to prove their point and people who refute it seem to always go to the new testament? I think they had a greater more broader revelation about death in the new testament.
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The Bible does not contradict itself
James 2:26
(26) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The spirit is the breath of life.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Immortality is given when Jesus returns, we do not have an immortal soul

 
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Closemyeyes2cU

Guest
#323
#323
RachelBibleStudent said:
...so to be consistent we have to conclude that jesus' story of the rich man and poor lazarus was giving an accurate description of what happens to the dead...
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Thats one of the problems with soul sleep. It creates inconsistencies in the way Jesus talked. Every other parable that Jesus mentions could have happened in real life. And Jesus never spoke in this manner "Verily, I say unto you today, etc". Yet they want to adjust the comma in the below verse to make it the only place where he did speak like that.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
 
C

Closemyeyes2cU

Guest
#324
#324
Laodicea said:
The Bible does not contradict itself
James 2:26
(26) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The spirit is the breath of life.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Immortality is given when Jesus returns, we do not have an immortal soul
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I agree, the Bible doesn't contradict itself, but your poor interpretation of this particular subject makes it seem as though it does.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#325
#325
Closemyeyes2cU said:
Thats one of the problems with soul sleep. It creates inconsistencies in the way Jesus talked. Every other parable that Jesus mentions could have happened in real life. And Jesus never spoke in this manner "Verily, I say unto you today, etc". Yet they want to adjust the comma in the below verse to make it the only place where he did speak like that.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
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Jesus clearly taught that people are rewarded when he returns. To teach it is not a parable but literal is to make Jesus contradict Himself.

 Matthew 16:27
(27) for the son of man shall come in the glory of his father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Matthew 25:31-33
(31) when the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
(32) and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
(33) and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Matthew 25:34
(34) then shall the king say unto them on his right hand, come, ye blessed of my father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Matthew 25:41
(41) then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 22:12
(12) and, behold, i come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

 
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Closemyeyes2cU

Guest
#326
#326
Is it just me who finds its strange that its usually cults (not always) who hold to this doctrine? That alone should raise a red flag.
 
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Laodicea

Guest
#327
#327
Closemyeyes2cU said:
I agree, the Bible doesn't contradict itself, but your poor interpretation of this particular subject makes it seem as though it does.
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The Bible says the dead do not know anything. You have not shown from the Bible the meaning of this verse since you disagree. You have only used your own opinion to explain the verse.
 
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Closemyeyes2cU

Guest
#328
#328
Laodicea said:
The Bible says the dead do not know anything. You have not shown from the Bible the meaning of this verse since you disagree. You have only used your own opinion to explain the verse.
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You are right, dead bodies dont know anything. Walk up to a casket and ask the body that's inside it a trivia question.....it don't know nothing. The spirit has left the body though.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#329
#329
Laodicea said:
The Bible says this
Psalms 146:4
(4) His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, 10
(5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
(6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
(10) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Even though the Bible says this people try to change the meaning of it to mean the opposite. It is not good to use verses to counteract verses, we need to first address the verses at hand.
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look at the context of the words you are highlighting...

the verse from psalms talks about returning to the earth...so this is talking about what happens to the dead in the physical world...and of course a physical dead body has no thoughts...because its conscious spirit is elsewhere...

and in the passage from ecclesiastes...specifically in verse six...it is talking about the dead having no part in anything that goes on 'under the sun'...that is in this physical world... moreover it says that the memory of the dead is forgotten...this is clearly referring to the point of view of those still living in this world...most people who die are eventually forgotten by the world... and of course nobody works or thinks in the grave...dead bodies don't do much of anything...but this is saying nothing about what happens to the spirit which is -not- in the grave...

you are confusing the physical with the spiritual here...
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#330
#330
Closemyeyes2cU said:
Is it just me who finds its strange that its usually cults (not always) who hold to this doctrine? That alone should raise a red flag.
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it also often signals the presence of other false doctrines...false doctrines seem to travel in packs...
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#331
#331
Closemyeyes2cU said:
You are right, dead bodies dont know anything. Walk up to a casket and ask the body that's inside it a trivia question.....it don't know nothing. The spirit has left the body though.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
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Genesis 2:7
(7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

You have quoted Eccl 12:7 that says the spirit goes back to God, that verse is the opposite order of Genesis 2:7 and it shows that the spirit is the breath of life. Genesis 2:7 breaths into man the breath of life and Eccl 12:7 the spirit returns to God who gave it. Also Eccl 12:7 does not say that only the good spirits go to God But, all.
 
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Laodicea

Guest
#332
#332
RachelBibleStudent said:
look at the context of the words you are highlighting...

the verse from psalms talks about returning to the earth...so this is talking about what happens to the dead in the physical world...and of course a physical dead body has no thoughts...because its conscious spirit is elsewhere...

and in the passage from ecclesiastes...specifically in verse six...it is talking about the dead having no part in anything that goes on 'under the sun'...that is in this physical world... moreover it says that the memory of the dead is forgotten...this is clearly referring to the point of view of those still living in this world...most people who die are eventually forgotten by the world... and of course nobody works or thinks in the grave...dead bodies don't do much of anything...but this is saying nothing about what happens to the spirit which is -not- in the grave...

you are confusing the physical with the spiritual here...
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Again no Bible.
 
C

Closemyeyes2cU

Guest
#333
#333
Laodicea said:
Genesis 2:7
(7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

You have quoted Eccl 12:7 that says the spirit goes back to God, that verse is the opposite order of Genesis 2:7 and it shows that the spirit is the breath of life. Genesis 2:7 breaths into man the breath of life and Eccl 12:7 the spirit returns to God who gave it. Also Eccl 12:7 does not say that only the good spirits go to God But, all.
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God is everywhere

Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

The body and soul are different

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
 
C

chesser

Guest
#335
#335
Closemyeyes2cU said:
Is it just me who finds its strange that its usually cults (not always) who hold to this doctrine? That alone should raise a red flag.
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by that logic,gnostics didnt belive in soul sleep, therefore soul sleep is true
 
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Laodicea

Guest
#336
#336
Closemyeyes2cU said:
God is everywhere

Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

The body and soul are different

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
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I agree that the body and soul are different. The Bible says Body + Breath of life = A Soul. The text does not say man was given a soul But, man became a soul. When a person dies it is the opposite
 
C

chesser

Guest
#337
#337
RachelBibleStudent said:
it also often signals the presence of other false doctrines...false doctrines seem to travel in packs...
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i seem to remember once debating you about somthing and you said"the apostles were wrong then"
 
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Closemyeyes2cU

Guest
#338
#338
chesser said:
by that logic,gnostics didnt belive in soul sleep, therefore soul sleep is true
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If someone has a nice tan I assume they have been out in the sun. If someone believes in soul sleep I assume they have been in a cult. There are exceptions to every rule.
 
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Laodicea

Guest
#339
#339
RachelBibleStudent said:
right i only quoted from the passages several times... :rolleyes:
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The text is clear " The dead do not know anything" You people are putting your own interpretation into it and are passing it off as truth.
 
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Closemyeyes2cU

Guest
#340
#340
Laodicea said:
I agree that the body and soul are different. The Bible says Body + Breath of life = A Soul. The text does not say man was given a soul But, man became a soul. When a person dies it is the opposite
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So when the breath of life leaves, how can a soul remain in the grave if the soul no longer exist?

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
 
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