Two Wintnesses 2+2=2?

[1Christianwarrior316]

The Bicle says we are to use all of God's word not a portion. I understand about that method but it is flawed because it does not use all the Bible.

Do you deny that the Word of God says candlesticks are churches as revealed by His Word in Revelation 1:20?
Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Do you deny God’s Word that describes the olive trees as the Jews and the Christians as described in Romans 11:17 and 11:24?
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakes of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

It appears to me that you deny God’s Word and the definitions He has revealed unto us by His Word so you can promote your man made doctrine that is based on the precepts of man. You argument is not with me but with the Word of God.

"God is truth, so how well a person serves the Lord is not dependent on how artfully he can defend his doctrines, but on his willingness to seek out and follow the truth." - Ellis Skolfield.

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316

 

[Laodicea]

Do you deny that the Word of God says candlesticks are churches as revealed by His Word in Revelation 1:20?
Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Do you deny God’s Word that describes the olive trees as the Jews and the Christians as described in Romans 11:17 and 11:24?
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakes of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

It appears to me that you deny God’s Word and the definitions He has revealed unto us by His Word so you can promote your man made doctrine that is based on the precepts of man. You argument is not with me but with the Word of God.

"God is truth, so how well a person serves the Lord is not dependent on how artfully he can defend his doctrines, but on his willingness to seek out and follow the truth." - Ellis Skolfield.

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316

Do not presume to tell me that I deny the word of God. It is the system you use that I do not like. This is why.
Matthew 4:4
(4) But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Luke 24:27
(27) And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

This is the method Jesus used and is the method that I use. We are to use all the Bible not part of the Bible. With this system if you think a surrounding verse has the answer then you leave it at that rather than using Jesus method.

It is clear that Revelation 11 is quoting Zechariah 4 so we should go to that verse but, you people said we do not go to the OT to explain the NT. Whenever a verse in the NT quotes the OT we should always go to the OT verse.

The candle sticks in Revelation 11 is 2, while in Revelation 1 it is 7, the number must be taken into account cause it may be referring to something else and not what you think.

Romans 11:17
(17) And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Romans 11:24
(24) For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

These verses talk about the olive tree in the singular not the plural that must be taken into account.

Revelation 11:4
(4) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Zechariah 4:14
(14) Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Have a good look at this. This is what the system that you are talking about won't go to when it is clear that it is not talking about how you interpret it using the flawed system rather than using the system Jesus used.

 

[kenisyes]

Maybe we're all right, just looking at a diamond with many facets from different sides. First, Acts 7:38 clearly states that the church was present at Mt. Sinai. The (one) church included Jews from the first chronological mention. There is no such thing as a Christian church, only the Church of Jesus Christ, whose mission while on earth, as He Himself said, was only to Jews. This fact is part of why Paul has to use so many words to try to clarify the issue of how Jews will be returned to Jesus in the end.

Seven churches vs. 2 churches is easy to account for: There is only one church. The word "churches" is always used in the NT as applying to different cities. That is, each city has only one church (unlike nowadays, where we use the word differently). The implication is, that the church has different manifestations (hence different "angels") to meet different needs for each city. It's like one flame on one big candle. We can use it to light 7 candles (if we have 7 relevant cities, also meaning of course "completion" as 7 often does) or two candles (if our goal is to communicate that the church serves a different type of need, which by its nature is in two parts. So 7 candles are one way to shed light to the earth, and 2 candles are another. Both represent the one church, fueled as in Zech., by the olive trees. It makes even better sense if we accept that the 7 churches are what was there when the book was written, and the 2 churches are to come in the future; the needs will change, so the number of candles will change.

To say the witnesses (who are both the candlestick lights to the world and the olive tree fuel source from Zech, both of which the church should be) are Moses and Elijah, or that they are the justice and mercy of God, or that they are the law and the prophets, are the same thing. Moses gives the law which shows God's justice, and Elijah is the greatest prophet and prophets assure us of God's future, which is all good for us and hence merciful. And of course they will be two men, because all of Scripture must be fulfilled in its literal as well as symbolic sense, or else God's earthly creation will somehow be incomplete.

The value of studying symbols is to know the meaning of the Word of God better, so we can find the marking posts to keep us on the path that grows ever narrower.

Wolfinoxhide, I have no revelation on the 1260 days either, but your latest post makes me wonder if it is not somehow one of the dimensions of the temple Ezechiel was asked to measure. Maybe even tied in with the corruption that was in the temple at that time? Perhaps this line of thought would help us define the need that caused 7 lights to become 2. 1260 days X 7 X 2 is one jubilee, but I doubt that is relevant.

 

[peterT]

Do you deny that the Word of God says candlesticks are churches as revealed by His Word in Revelation 1:20?
Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Do you deny God’s Word that describes the olive trees as the Jews and the Christians as described in Romans 11:17 and 11:24?
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakes of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

It appears to me that you deny God’s Word and the definitions He has revealed unto us by His Word so you can promote your man made doctrine that is based on the precepts of man. You argument is not with me but with the Word of God.

"God is truth, so how well a person serves the Lord is not dependent on how artfully he can defend his doctrines, but on his willingness to seek out and follow the truth." - Ellis Skolfield.

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316

There’s no such thing as a Jewish church just the Christian church.

There are children of obedience and children of disobedience.

Light and darkness, unrighteousness and righteousness, Christ with Belial, truth and the lie

He has made one blood all nations of men and we are all one in Christ.

One body the church and there is nether Jew or Greek in Christ Jesus, and no man comes to the farther but by me. And he that hath not the son hath not the farther

You will have to revaluate your interpretation of the candlesticks as it is against scripture

 

[peterT]

Do you deny that the Word of God says candlesticks are churches as revealed by His Word in Revelation 1:20?
Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Do you deny God’s Word that describes the olive trees as the Jews and the Christians as described in Romans 11:17 and 11:24?
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakes of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

It appears to me that you deny God’s Word and the definitions He has revealed unto us by His Word so you can promote your man made doctrine that is based on the precepts of man. You argument is not with me but with the Word of God.

"God is truth, so how well a person serves the Lord is not dependent on how artfully he can defend his doctrines, but on his willingness to seek out and follow the truth." - Ellis Skolfield.

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316

So opposite to what God Jesus and the disciples were teaching

They worked hard and laid down their lives to bring the gospel of Jesus to the Jews.

This is why God said there is no respect of persons with God and it is a sin to have respect of persons.

You give the opportunity to everyone to come to the Lord but the Jews have no need of Jesus for they are the elect of God.

That’s not very loving, that why there is no respect of persons with God, so everyone can have the same opportunity.

John14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And you talk about doctrines of men

 

[1Christianwarrior316]

Do not presume to tell me that I deny the word of God. It is the system you use that I do not like. This is why.

I asked you a simple question that should have been answered yes or no. The reason you will not answer it is because it does not fit your doctrine.

It is clear that Revelation 11 is quoting Zechariah 4 so we should go to that verse but, you people said we do not go to the OT to explain the NT. Whenever a verse in the NT quotes the OT we should always go to the OT verse.

Show me by God’s Word where it says that Revelation 11 is quoting Zechariah 4.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Candlesticks and olive trees are used figuratively in Zec 4, but the figures within that chapter were defined for us as things that existed during Zechariah's time (the Jewish leader Zerubbabel being one of them). So on the basis of the definitions in Zec 4, could Zerubbabel and "the two anointed ones" be the Two Witnesses of Rev 11? Not very likely since he died about 2500 years ago. We see no end-time reference to a personage like Zerubbabel in the New Testament, and furthermore Revelation does not call the two witnesses of the Christian Era "anointed ones." However, since Zechariah's two anointed ones are not clearly identified, they might possibly be an OT reference to the Two Witnesses in Revelation 11.

the number must be taken into account cause it may be referring to something else and not what you think.

No. I disagree. Why are you trying to take this in another direction?
According to God’s Word, in Revelation 1:20 candlesticks are churches.
Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Show me by scripture where the definition of candlesticks between Revelation 1:20 to Revelation 11:4 has been changed to mean something other than candlesticks.
Doesn’t Mal 3:6 say “For I am the Lord, I change not; Are you saying that God changed His definition for candlesticks between Revelation 1:20 and Revelation 11:4?
If scripture tells us candlesticks are churches in Revelation 1:20, the meaning for candlesticks will be the same in Revelation 11:4.
　

Romans 11:17

(17) And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Romans 11:24
(24) For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

These verses talk about the olive tree in the singular not the plural that must be taken into account.

No. I disagree. You really are missing what scripture is saying here. If you pay close attention (what I bolded and underlined in the verses you referred to above) it is referring to two olive trees. One which is wild by nature (Gentiles) that is grafted into the second, a good olive tree (Jews). Do you truly understand what God’s Word is revealing unto us in these verses? Or are you to blind to see the truth because of the doctrinal filters that are placed upon your eyes? It is one thing to not understand the Word of God, but it is another thing to twist His Word so it will fit our man made doctrine.
Many of the "former age" understood this interpretation of the two witnesses:
Matthew Henry: "Some think these two witnesses are Enoch and Elias, who are to return to the earth for a time: others, the church of the believing Jews and that of the Gentiles ... "
Or more recently Jamieson Faucett and Brown "..., I think the twofold Church, Jewish and Gentile, may be meant by the two candlesticks represented by the two witnesses ... "

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316



　

 

[1Christianwarrior316]

You will have to revaluate your interpretation of the candlesticks as it is against scripture

And you talk about doctrines of men

My interpretation of candlesticks is against scripture, doctrine of men? Are you saying the Word of God is doctrine of men? I have only shown by scripture the definition given us by the Word of God who the two witness are.


So let me ask you peterT,
Do you deny that the Word of God says candlesticks are churches as revealed by His Word in Revelation 1:20?
Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Do you deny God’s Word that describes the olive trees as the Jews and the Christians as described in Romans 11:17 and 11:24?
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakes of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

A simple yes or no should be your only response to the questions. Or are you going to side step the questions like Laodicea?

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316

 

[Laodicea]

1Christianwarrior316 Explain this verse that talks about the two witnesses
Revelation 11:3 KJV
(3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

 

[ed12]

Hi guys,
I have copied this from a thread, Witnessing and university scholars, which I post some time ago. As this post is relevant to this thread, I have re-posted it here.
copy

I was born on the 13th May, 1946. Baptised Edwin G xxxxxxxx H.xxxxxxxxxx
In May, 2001 Jesus, by means of an external voice, quite frightening, told me I would be
his witness during revelation.
Towards the end of 2008 I discovered that the Hebrew word, ed, as used in the old
testament means “Witness”
When Jesus told me I would be his witness, it was the 2nd part of a three part scenario.
The first part was played a couple of days earlier. For a couple of years before this many
strange things happened to me, especially in the realm of dreams and visions. This
particular night nothing happened but when I woke I had this very strong desire to wear
sackcloth. Now I was not well versed in the bible even though I had been reading it for a
couple of years. I was living in Thailand but alone during the week as my wife, Tui,
worked some distance from her townhouse and stayed the 5 week nights in company
accommodation adjacent to the work site, the Japanese company TDK. So I was virtually
alone in a foreign country without any language skills. I went to markets looking for sack
cloth. To me sack cloth was hessian, the cloth used in potato sacks and chicken feed
sacks and sugar bags. I could not find any but then on maybe the 2 nd day I saw a begger
wearing green garbage bags. I said to God, “If you want me to wear green garbage bags, I
will, but I need you to ask me again” Well the desire to wear sackcloth completely
disappeared immediately. Then after Jesus spoke to me at school, I went home and
opened the bible and the first thing I read was, “You will be my witness, wearing
sackcloth.: Then I understood the sackcloth. Of course I was perplexed. I kept saying to
myself, believe this Edwin, believe it. Then I would think of myself in a supermarket
belonging to God, full of all His treasures and rewards and thinking, “I would never dare
to reach up so high, surely to the top shelf. I still find it extremely amazing, especially as
there are so many wonderful people out there. At the same time, I am not going to give
up this inheritance. Several times I have thought, oh dear, maybe I have blown my chance
now but I am blessed as He keeps giving me small moments of encouragement which
fills me with renewed enthusiasm.

love
edwin
end of copy
love in Jesus
ed

 

[doulos]

There’s no such thing as a Jewish church just the Christian church.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Are the enemies of the gospel that are elect for their father’s sake part of the Christian Church? How can an enemy of the gospel be a Christian? I understand your need to ignore these questions after all it brings your futurists propaganda into question.

1Christianwarrior316 Explain this verse that talks about the two witnesses
Revelation 11:3 KJV
(3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

For the third time allow me to point out the object (subject) of this thread is to discuss the Scriptural definition of candlesticks and olive trees (not the 1260 days) so please show a little common courtesy and stick to the subject at hand. I understand you have trouble accepting the definitions provided even though they come directly from Scripture.
Rev 1:20The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Trying to confuse the issue by pushing the SDA agenda that the 1260 days occurred between 538 and 1798 won’t change the fact that Scripture tells us Candlesticks are churches and that olive trees are Christians and Jews. Nor will it help your cause because as any one can see the old and new testaments did not lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem during those 1260 years. In addition we are told the woman is to flee into the wilderness during that time period. There was no reason for Jews or Christians to flee Jerusalem or Israel in 538. Nor did they return to Jerusalem or Israel in 1798, so please if you want to discuss the Scripturally bankrupt SDA heresy concerning the 1260 days show a little common courtesy, start a thread, and discuss it there. Thank you in advance!

 

[kenisyes]

I want to respond to Ed12's most unique post.

I think we all know that many people have thought they knew the date of the second coming, and even sold homes and property to go somewhere together to wait. Your expectation is a little different since Scripture is precise that no one will know the exact day or hour, whereas to know you are a witness carries no such Scriptural comment. I knew a man some 30 years ago nearly 70 years old then, who stated that he would live to see the second coming - so God had told him. I believe the second coming has not happened yet (or we have all been left behind, and that is unlikely). Understand, Ed, I'm not doubting what the Lord can do in your life and ministry; merely reflecting we all have a lot to learn about how He is doing it, and thinking that you must have some unique insights into that process.

Let me ask if you have any insights relating to the ministry of the witnesses? Until hearing your statement, I had always assumed the witnesses would be called and empowered almost on the day their ministry was to begin. Hearing that you wanted to wear sackcloth already comes as a surprise to me. If the Lord is leading you into your ministry gradually, are there any insights you can share about the question on the table in this thread? Do you find yourself in any unique Jewish/Christian relationships for example? Do you find yourself with any unique insights into churches, or into the mission of the antiChrist that might be part of the development of the ministry of a witness, just as wearing sackcloth is? Whether you are or are not in fact to be a witness is for God to say; certainly, your earnest belief that you are may have led you to some study of Scripture the rest of us may have missed?

 

[ed12]

I want to respond to Ed12's most unique post.

I think we all know that many people have thought they knew the date of the second coming, and even sold homes and property to go somewhere together to wait. Your expectation is a little different since Scripture is precise that no one will know the exact day or hour, whereas to know you are a witness carries no such Scriptural comment. I knew a man some 30 years ago nearly 70 years old then, who stated that he would live to see the second coming - so God had told him. I believe the second coming has not happened yet (or we have all been left behind, and that is unlikely). Understand, Ed, I'm not doubting what the Lord can do in your life and ministry; merely reflecting we all have a lot to learn about how He is doing it, and thinking that you must have some unique insights into that process.

Let me ask if you have any insights relating to the ministry of the witnesses? Until hearing your statement, I had always assumed the witnesses would be called and empowered almost on the day their ministry was to begin. Hearing that you wanted to wear sackcloth already comes as a surprise to me. If the Lord is leading you into your ministry gradually, are there any insights you can share about the question on the table in this thread? Do you find yourself in any unique Jewish/Christian relationships for example? Do you find yourself with any unique insights into churches, or into the mission of the antiChrist that might be part of the development of the ministry of a witness, just as wearing sackcloth is? Whether you are or are not in fact to be a witness is for God to say; certainly, your earnest belief that you are may have led you to some study of Scripture the rest of us may have missed?

Hi kenisyes,
Thank you for this kind post. My understanding of Revelation is very confusing. I seem to be at odds with most ideas and I am quite sick of the whole subject. I have some very firm ideas on various issues.
From the last church I attended. [[I left towards the end of June as they taught "mindfulness" a Buddhist teaching and the elders agreed with the teaching, saying the person who taught it was a prophet and Jesus had revealed to this person that "mindfulness" was really Christ's teaching and this prophet was instructed by Jesus to "steal" (their word) it back]]
i look at the pharisees in Jesus time and for me it is hard to understand how they could not recognize Jesus as the Christ. Probably this was because they had a preconceived belief of what Jesus would be like and what He would do, ie establish a political kingdom. For this reason, I try to keep myself from being too locked in to one idea or another. I always seem to be looking the wrong way when He visits or expecting one thing when His wisdom uses another method. I am constantly surprised. So now I just leave all expectations out of my reasonings.
Insights into the ministry. No, I don't think so. I look for but cannot find the other witness. I really am having trouble finding a Christian. I think but do not know that the reason Christ is using two witnesses, ie candlesticks is because the churches are as the pharisees were. Jesus has had to resort to this, just two guys assuming one is not a lady. At one stage I thought my wife may have been one ( because of circumstances and the one piece of metal covering in the tabernacle but again wrong. Now I am single.
I wlll stop here because I don't like reading long responses.
Please ask if you are interested. Examine me in any way
love in Jesus
oh Jewish Christian relationship. . Born an Australian through Australians from Danish on one side and English/Welsh on the other. Now I believe I am a levite. Blew my socks off.
Also ( scared the daylights out of me} I am a nazerite.
I guess this is a bit of an overload now.

 

[kenisyes]

Ed12, I would think the proper response to the church teaching "mindfulness" is the advice in Corinthians "let two or three at most prophecy and the rest judge what is said". I think it's reasonable that Buddha, not having Jesus, probably messed up something God wanted to tell people, and I suppose prophecy might one day get to the truth of what it was. But we have to do the process God's way if it's going to work. Had there been more than one person prophesying, and/or the REST (including you) allowed to judge, the outcome could have been different. It must have been hard on you; the witnesses don't run from conflict when their time comes.

The confusion in your understanding of Revelation is what I would have expected based on my idea that the witnesses are to be empowered just before their ministry begins, but you mentioned being led to wear sackcloth, and that caused me to question my idea, as you yourself say you have learned to set aside your ideas of what God is going to do. I am certain that whatever God has us live through, and lead others through, we understand fairly well by the time we are done, though.

I don't need to "examine" you. You are undoubtedly a sincere follower of Jesus. Whether you are in fact a witness will have to wait until the the time they are revealed to prove either way, since "by their fruits you will know them" and it does not seem to be time for that particular fruit yet. I know that you have been told you are one, and my experience says therefore you will have more insights about what it means to be one than almost anyone else. All I can do is join you in trusting that through all the pain and trials God is working it out however it is supposed to be.

Most people don't recognize Jesus now, when He comes to them in their brother/sister, anymore than the pharisees could see the Messiah in a carpenter who could work miracles. Sadly, that includes many "Christians" and is most confusing for the unsaved world looking to determine if Jesus is the answer.

Messianic Jews think I'm Jewish too, but I've never investigated as to tribe. I think it's like the old phrase "there's a little bit of the Irish in all of us". If you are a follower of Jesus, then He lives in you, and He is certainly Jewish.

It's no overload at all. I have known many people called by God to unique ministries, and many people who have had to wait for the call to be fulfilled. I've known people who were wrong about what they were called to as well. I know the pain, misunderstanding, and confusion, and I know through all of it, God gets the glory, if we are following Him.

 

[peterT]

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Are the enemies of the gospel that are elect for their father’s sake part of the Christian Church? How can an enemy of the gospel be a Christian? I understand your need to ignore these questions after all it brings your futurists propaganda into question.




For the third time allow me to point out the object (subject) of this thread is to discuss the Scriptural definition of candlesticks and olive trees (not the 1260 days) so please show a little common courtesy and stick to the subject at hand. I understand you have trouble accepting the definitions provided even though they come directly from Scripture.
Rev 1:20The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Trying to confuse the issue by pushing the SDA agenda that the 1260 days occurred between 538 and 1798 won’t change the fact that Scripture tells us Candlesticks are churches and that olive trees are Christians and Jews. Nor will it help your cause because as any one can see the old and new testaments did not lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem during those 1260 years. In addition we are told the woman is to flee into the wilderness during that time period. There was no reason for Jews or Christians to flee Jerusalem or Israel in 538. Nor did they return to Jerusalem or Israel in 1798, so please if you want to discuss the Scripturally bankrupt SDA heresy concerning the 1260 days show a little common courtesy, start a thread, and discuss it there. Thank you in advance!

None of those verses say there is a Jewish church.

There is one body the church. And we all drink of one spirit

1 Corinthians 12:12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

There is no such thing as a Jewish church for you have to receive Jesus to be of the church

 

[peterT]

My interpretation of candlesticks is against scripture, doctrine of men? Are you saying the Word of God is doctrine of men? I have only shown by scripture the definition given us by the Word of God who the two witness are.


So let me ask you peterT,
Do you deny that the Word of God says candlesticks are churches as revealed by His Word in Revelation 1:20?
Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Do you deny God’s Word that describes the olive trees as the Jews and the Christians as described in Romans 11:17 and 11:24?
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakes of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

A simple yes or no should be your only response to the questions. Or are you going to side step the questions like Laodicea?

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316

There is no such thing as a Jewish church for you have to receive Jesus to be of the church

No man comes to the farther but by me, and he that hath not the son hath not the father .

So how can there be a Jewish church, if Jesus is the cornerstone.

Ephesians 2;20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Your just making that stuff up, it’s not in the bible for no man comes to the father but by me jesus said

 

[doulos]

None of those verses say there is a Jewish church.

There is one body the church. And we all drink of one spirit

1 Corinthians 12:12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

There is no such thing as a Jewish church for you have to receive Jesus to be of the church

I see you continue to sidestep the questions I asked so I’ll ask again.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Are the enemies of the gospel that are elect for their father’s sake part of the Christian Church? How can an enemy of the gospel be a Christian? Tell me petert what church do the enemies of the Gospel that are elect for their father’s sake belong to?

 

[peterT]

I see you continue to sidestep the questions I asked so I’ll ask again.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Are the enemies of the gospel that are elect for their father’s sake part of the Christian Church? How can an enemy of the gospel be a Christian? Tell me petert what church do the enemies of the Gospel that are elect for their father’s sake belong to?

You make a mockery of God laying down his sons life and a mockery of Jesus giving his life for us all, and a mockery of the work of the disciples bringing the gospel to the Jews, by saying there is a Jewish church and the Jews have no need of the blood of the Lamb And that the Jews can have the father without the son.

Not very loving offering Jesus to some and not to others now is it.

There is one mediator between God and man and that is Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 2;4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

What is this gospel that you preach??

 

[ed12]

Ed12, I would think the proper response to the church teaching "mindfulness" is the advice in Corinthians "let two or three at most prophecy and the rest judge what is said". I think it's reasonable that Buddha, not having Jesus, probably messed up something God wanted to tell people, and I suppose prophecy might one day get to the truth of what it was. But we have to do the process God's way if it's going to work. Had there been more than one person prophesying, and/or the REST (including you) allowed to judge, the outcome could have been different. It must have been hard on you; the witnesses don't run from conflict when their time comes.

The confusion in your understanding of Revelation is what I would have expected based on my idea that the witnesses are to be empowered just before their ministry begins, but you mentioned being led to wear sackcloth, and that caused me to question my idea, as you yourself say you have learned to set aside your ideas of what God is going to do. I am certain that whatever God has us live through, and lead others through, we understand fairly well by the time we are done, though.

I don't need to "examine" you. You are undoubtedly a sincere follower of Jesus. Whether you are in fact a witness will have to wait until the the time they are revealed to prove either way, since "by their fruits you will know them" and it does not seem to be time for that particular fruit yet. I know that you have been told you are one, and my experience says therefore you will have more insights about what it means to be one than almost anyone else. All I can do is join you in trusting that through all the pain and trials God is working it out however it is supposed to be.

Most people don't recognize Jesus now, when He comes to them in their brother/sister, anymore than the pharisees could see the Messiah in a carpenter who could work miracles. Sadly, that includes many "Christians" and is most confusing for the unsaved world looking to determine if Jesus is the answer.

Messianic Jews think I'm Jewish too, but I've never investigated as to tribe. I think it's like the old phrase "there's a little bit of the Irish in all of us". If you are a follower of Jesus, then He lives in you, and He is certainly Jewish.

It's no overload at all. I have known many people called by God to unique ministries, and many people who have had to wait for the call to be fulfilled. I've known people who were wrong about what they were called to as well. I know the pain, misunderstanding, and confusion, and I know through all of it, God gets the glory, if we are following Him.

Hi kenisyes,
Thank you again for the wonderful post. May I add some information on the Buddhist teaching of mindfulness.. This person is using this technique at work as he witnessed to two people being healed and his being thanked. This person also spoke of "feelings" each time he started this process, using God's OT Hebrew name as a mantra. This person also invited the congregation to participate in practising this technique. He asked for those who felt 'movement' to raise their hands.
I was totally outraged. I resisted standing up during the presentation but spoke to the pastor immediately after this event. The pastor asked if I wanted the elders to meet over this. I asked for this, Many weeks went by and businesses stopped the elders meeting. The recording of the presentation failed, however notes were available. During this waiting time, I had withdrawn from the church because my presence condoned these actions. I asked that this man either repent or being asked to leave. One day I met a member of a family at a shop I hardly ever visit and she told me of a very strange manifestation of the Spirit. This family does not want to be involved. Her husband was given a message by a wind. He told his wife that he was to tell the elders that Jesus was disappointed in their slow actions. This is exactly what was happening. Weeks had passed and the elders for various reasons had not met to discuss this issue. The man who received this message from the wind told the wife of one of the elders. These people, claiming to love Jesus wont witness. I emailed this family expressing my opinion that Jesus knew what their actions would mount to and the reason for the wind was so that I would know the extent of this families love. Before their failure to witness, I was desperately concerned for this family in particular. Now knowing the depth of their love, i felt a fair amount of release. Jesus also had me meet another member of this church in peculiar circumstances and he said he too was concerned but later he emailed me to say it was ok.
None of the elders recognize that a spirit other than Jesus is being introduced to them. None of the others realize that a spirit other than Jesus is being used to heal, especially mental illness, eg depression and anxiety.
I have absolute faith in the Almightyness of Jesus and in His name but I still dislike associating with evil spirits. I have had battles and these episodes are never comfortable.
Once again, thanks
love in Jesus
ed

 

[doulos]

You make a mockery of God laying down his sons life and a mockery of Jesus giving his life for us all, and a mockery of the work of the disciples bringing the gospel to the Jews, by saying there is a Jewish church and the Jews have no need of the blood of the Lamb And that the Jews can have the father without the son.

Not very loving offering Jesus to some and not to others now is it.

There is one mediator between God and man and that is Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 2;4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

What is this gospel that you preach??

I see you still have nothing productive to add to the discussion and once again continue to sidestep the questions I asked so I’ll ask again.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Are the enemies of the gospel that are elect for their father’s sake part of the Christian Church? How can an enemy of the gospel be a Christian? Tell me petert what church do the enemies of the Gospel that are elect for their father’s sake belong to?

 

[1Christianwarrior316]

There is no such thing as a Jewish church for you have to receive Jesus to be of the church

No man comes to the farther but by me, and he that hath not the son hath not the father .

So how can there be a Jewish church, if Jesus is the cornerstone.

Ephesians 2;20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Your just making that stuff up, it’s not in the bible for no man comes to the father but by me jesus said

Were Abraham and Moses a Christian?
1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316