Eternal Security - If saved, always saved! Part 1. - By David Stewart

[megaman125]

forgive me if I look at reality of what your saying and not at what you claim to not do.

fact. anyone who teaches one can lose eternal life is teaching a gospel of works, and rejecting grace.
fact. anyone who does not believe in OSAS is teaching a gospel of works,
fact. anyone who teaches that once a person is born again, Is saved by the blood of Christ, is Given eternal life, and at any time they can lose that gift of salvation is teaching that someone must merit that salvation in order to keep it. Now what it is that one claimes we must do, whether from the extreme legalist to many works, To the least of the legalist with but a few works, Still teaches a gospel of works. This my friend is what you are teaching, You can deny it all you want, I woul dnot call a femal a male, no matter how hard and adament she tried to tell me she was a male and not a female. I will call a works based gospel what it is, no matter how many times the person denys he is teaching a gospel of works, and denying grace.

These "facts" of yours are all based on making assumptions of me which you assume are true. And this is why my responses have been short with few words. It's not worthwhile for me to try and reason with people who want to make assumptions of others and put words in their mouths. Until you want to get past that, expect my responses to be short and sometimes vauge.

You don;t have to say God keeps taking it back. all you have to do is say he can take it back at any times based on what a person does or does not do, and your teaching a works based gospel. for our salvation is merited on whatever you claim a person has to do, or not do, in order to keep the gift God said he gave, sealed with the spirit, who is our guarantee, and is eternal in nature.

There's your assumption again. Not once did I say that God is taking back the gift of salvation, and you can't quote a post of mine where I do (at least, you can't quote of a post of mine without throwing in your own assumptions and opinions).

I understand you do not like what I say, just like red does not like what I say, and denys he is teaching licentiousness. But what you say you do not teach, and what you actually teach do not agree with each other, I can just explain why i do not see what you see. .

Now you're trying to claim knowledge about what I do or don't teach? Heck, I don't see where I've really taught anything here, more just rejecting the OSAS teaching. But if you know so much, please list everything that I actually do teach, since you seem to know me so well. (without making assumptions of course)

 

[Red33]

Wow, this is a blessed day, I not only get to discuss a legalistic gospel based on works, But a licentious gospel based on lack of repentance. All in successive posts.



Like the legalist who claims they do not teach works. Just because you refuse to admit you say as much, What you say and what you profess to not have done does not line up.


and before I go on, I would just like you to know you just exposed yourself. those in here who have seen me post have heard me say what you are about to claim I have never said many times. Thus they can see your false claims and insincerity. I know you have read them also. In fact I did it not to long ago. But you can't see it because your blinded by your belief, and in being so only see things you think you can counter attack, but are blinded to the things whihc would prove you wrong, so you put your foot in your mouth by using the very thing you fail to see, to try to expose someone, and in doing so, hurt yourself.

Do I need to repeat myself? How many times have I stated this? what does scripture say about those who are not God?

1. They hate God, do you still hate God and think his laws are unbearable and unwarrented and wrong?

or have you learned to understand Gods laws are just and he is a righteous God who has every right to impose his law on us, and also impose his judgment to all who break those laws? (repented)

2. They do not know they are sinners. Do you still think you are a basically good person, and God is not going to judge you because your not a sinner like the murderers and thief's and rapists?

or Do you admit it is your sin which separates you from God, no matter how minor or insignificant you think that sin may be(repented)

3. They try to get to God on their own terms. Are you trying to get to God by being good (the law) by your good deeds (sacraments or other religious works) and by stopping sin?

or have you admitted there is nothing you can do to make up for the sin you have already committed to make yourself right with God, let alone the sin you will commit from the time you say you are saved until the day you die? (repented)

I have just stated 3 of the basic things we all must repent of before we can come to faith in Christ. there are many many more.



Who is it that scripture tells us convicts us of sin righteousness and judgment which leads to repentance? or to no excuse?

If it did not happen, I never would have placed my faith in the loving, righteous and justice of God and come to his saving faith, I would still be lost in my sin, or playing some religious game thinking I was saved, but no more saved than anyone else who did not come to the knowledge of God and repented.

Everyone comes to a point that they doubt, As scripture says, we all have little faith in many areas, And you just exposed yourself again. How can you read what I type and sit here and ask my if I have returned to something I repented of? Here you go thinking repent means to feel sorrow for or ask forgiveness for. when it has nothing to do with the word. Scripture states all over the place Gods laws are written in our hearts. The HS convicts the whole world of Gods laws. How can I repent of sexual sin, when I already know in my heart it is a sin? If I already KNOW it is sin, then I already agree with God it is sin, so I can't repent of that sin. It is not repenting of personal sins which brings us to saving faith, it is repenting of the fact we are sinners, and are lost without the grace of God based solely on the death of his son on the cross.

Drug addicts are not healed in a moment of time, Neither neither are people who are addicted to anything which is sinful. Many struggle with it most of their lives, and may even fall back into it, But it does not mean they are not saved, If they have to stop to be saved we are teaching law. But it does not mean there will NOT be a change in their lives, that other sin areas which do not have such a major grasp are not taken care of. That their attitude towards God and his love and commands are not acted on. That their pride and selfishness is not changed. God says we will see a change in ones life. He does not say we will be sinless. As paul said, He was a wretched man, because even he struggles with sin, But even though he continues to sin, no one can deny the change in his life.



1. you don't know what repentance is by stating what you just stated you proved it.
2. God knows our heart the moment we trust him, He knows if we have repented, or have just mere belief, it is up to God not you or me to say who is saved or who is not.
3. Your stuck on personal sin, of which we all struggle, and not seeing what true repentance which leads to faith is. Like those I just spoke to who are legalists who think I am licentious, Your argument is based against them and their false teaching, and not against me. Because like them, it is your pride which refuses to allow you to see what I and those like me teach, you claim we believe as they do when it is obvious to the everyone with an open heart we do not.



Well I just proved you wrong. I just did, and have done many times over, what you just condemned me for not doing. Do you feel good making false accusations against people? and how do you feel being shown you do not listen to what people say, because if you did, you would not make these accusations against him, only to have them thrown back at you?

Actually I am under 5 pastor teachers, and many other elders in my church, who not only disciple me, but I disciple many others. I am a pastor myself in my home church, and have submited myself not only to the main elders, but the main leader in my home group, who not only have the authority to rebuke me if I teach in error. But can remove me from teaching if I do not submit to their authority and just teach what I want. Again, you prove you do not know me one iota. and have again placed yourself in a position of making false accusations because you refuse to get to know someone.



And you just proved you do not even know what grace is. NO ONE DESERVES GRACE! So how could I give grace to anyone who least deserve it when no one does? Not only do you not understand what true repentance is, you do not even understand what Grace is. How can anyone take you serious of having knowledge of God and the gospel at all when you do not even understand the two most important aspects of the gospel of Christ?

And here we go. As I have said probably 100 times in this forum. The licentious call me legalistic and the legalist calls me licentious. you have proved me right in so many areas with this one post. I would thank you for that, But I can;t take credit, it all goes to God.

1. All sin is wicked, here you go again proving you do not understand even this most basic points of doctrine and the gospel of Christ.
2. Judge not lest ye be judged. I can not save someone unless I show them grace first. Without Christ, they can not change.
3. Salvation is not based on repenting of each and every personal sin, it is repenting of the fact we are all sinners. and not one person, no matter how good the world may think they are, are deserving of eternal life.
4. We all struggle with sin, God tells us how to deal with it. And judgment or sever punishment is the LAST thing we are told to do.
5. Once again you prove you have utterly no clue what I believe, and are stuck, like the legalist, on what you believe and was taught, which is why in this one post alone you have made accusations which are unfounded, Unprovoked, and outright wrong, because when yuo read my posts, you read what you want to read, and see what you want to see, because your blinded by your own false belief system where you think you are right and everyone else is wrong.

I pray you repent one day and realism what true grace really is,. Undeserved merit. And what it is not, A license to continue in sin.

Lk 6:45-49 is all I can say! If our foundation is without the purity of grace through the unadulterated finished work of the cross then Christ is not the corner stone of our foundation and we have received the grace of God in vain. Whatever you think of a licentious gospel is not relevant or related to the gospel of Christ which is the power of God, not only to the saving of the soul but also to the transformation of that soul. Repentance will never create a capacity in the soul to receive the things of God, it takes the love, mercy, grace and patience of God to do that and when the believer has that capacity to receive, it won't be long before conviction settles in the heart and they are led to repentance by the goodness of God.

You are very structured about repentance in relationship to the gospel, to sin and to a transformed life. God would never permit any precious believer that belongs to Him to live in what you call 'licentiousness' as a practice. He would remove grace and chasten them for a time to win them back and produce the fruit of righteousness in their life. Your too negative when it comes to grace and you never see the power of God lifting and edifying the believer to raise him up in the last days. You seem to be a made of a certain structured faith that considers the awesomeness of the grace of God as something conditioned upon repentance instead of esteeming and magnifying the God of all grace who has called us to be merciful and to judge according to that mercy. We all need to grow up in the grace and knowledge of Christ and learn how to be kind, tenderhearted, full of grace and compassion and to keep ourselves in the love and mercy of God.

 

[feedm3]

I said I was just going to listen, but his post so full of "fact" statements demanded a response. Simply because if so full assumptions, error, and misrepresentation, while at the same time ignoring the implications these statements give, which expose EGs inconsistent views.

fact. anyone who teaches one can lose eternal life is teaching a gospel of works, and rejecting grace.

First of all, believing you must obey God to go to heaven is not rejecting grace, it is obeying what grace demands - Tit 2:11-12, Heb 5:9. Do either of these passages reject grace since salvation in linked directly to the obedient???

Second, You believe if a person does not repent (a work) and live a changed life, then we was never saved.

So in YOUR view, if one does not do the work of repentance he is not saved, basing his NOT being saved due to NOT repenting which would be NOT doing a certain work (repentance).

I dont agree with RED, but he has already found this contradiction just as I have, yet you still ignore it.

fact. anyone who does not believe in OSAS is teaching a gospel of works,

Thats the biggest assumption of all time. If one believes Heb 10:26-f, I Cor 6:1, Gal 5:4 does not mean he believes a gospel of works, it shows he believes God, and believes we MUST perform our duty of obedience - Lk 17:10, Ecc 12:13 - both demand obedience, if not show it.

fact. anyone who teaches that once a person is born again, Is saved by the blood of Christ, is Given eternal life, and at any time they can lose that gift of salvation is teaching that someone must merit that salvation in order to keep it.

Wrong again. One who does not obey rejects God's offer. It's not about "God taking and giving it", God gave it once. Yet you can throw it back at anytime and "Receive the grace of God in vain", and "depart from the faith" - I Tim 4:1

Merit - gives the idea of being "deserving" of the reward. Wrong, if we obey, we have only done that which is our duty to do - Luke 17:10 we are still unprofitable servants.

YOU teach one does not have to his/her duty to get to heaven, but if they dont do it they were never saved to begin with - a flat out contradiction that you constantly ignore.

Now what it is that one claimes we must do, whether from the extreme legalist to many works, To the least of the legalist with but a few works, Still teaches a gospel of works.

Your the one teaching that James says we must have works in order not to have dead faith. I agree, until you say it applies to one who has ZERO works, meaning no works at all:

So that implies we must at least have ONE work in order not to have dead faith, sense James is ONLY speaking of those who have NO works.

So your salvation is dependent on you having a work/works produced by your true faith.

SO you teach "a few works" as you stated above as a Pharisee. You dont even know it.

So lets recap of all your recent statements, and you tell me what conclusions you draw.

Dont start the "your twisting my words", show what's twisted, better yet deal with what you say.

You say:
1. True faith will produce works, if one does not have these works, he was never saved.

Implication:
IF I dont have works (i.e. repentance etc) I was never saved. So my Salvation being valid or invalid was based entirely upon my doing or not doing works and believing.



2. If a person is living in sin (i.e. no repentance) he shows he was never saved.

Implication:
living in sin is the determining factor if my salvation is valid or invalid.

So even if you dont believe the person was never saved to begin with, as a teacher you should be teaching that sin will cause hell, even if it a person professing to be a Christian.
So then your view of grace agrees with mine, it will not cover unrepentant sins.

So far, you believe a life of sin will hinder heaven, and a life without one work will hinder heaven, as both show one does not have "true faith", therefore you believe Only the obedient have true faith.



3. A Christian who lives in sin, will be brought back by the chastisement of God.

Implications.
A. IF this is true, your saying a person who is not saved MAY NOT live in sin and get to heaven.
B. A person who is saved CAN live in SIN and get to heaven, because he will be brought back.

Contradiction:
How can a Christian live in such a way that shows he was never saved be brought back by God?

Contradiction:
If by works we show true or false faith, and true faith has salvation, How are works non-essential to salvation?

If by living in sin we show if we have true or untrue faith, and true faith has salvation, then how can you say a Christian living in sin will be brought back if he shows untrue faith?

I am tired of you attacking everyone who believes what the Bible says, mocking them, and berating them, and accusing them of false beliefs,yet they do not imply anything other than what they say, unlike you. you will in no way answer these because you cannot.

Every time I ask him these, he just asks me questions for his answer, and says, "your argument is with john, James, etc" never even addressing these.

Be honest and deal with what you teach.

 

[megaman125]

Oh and btw, just to address a little bit of what what said earlier, that whole bit about Judas never being saved, the Bible disagrees with you on that.

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
Mark 16:16-18

And he called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases,
Luke 9:1

The twelve were given authority over demons and diseases, so that would include Judas. As Mark 16 says, those signs and wonder will follow. So why would Jesus give authority over demons and disease to Judas if Judas was not a follower of Christ (aka saved), when that's something reserved for those who are followers of Christ? (This question is for those who say Judas was never saved to begin with)

Disclaimer: as far as Judas' final state of salvation, we cannot make a conclusive statement whether or not he was saved when he ended his life on earth. That is ultimately between Judas and God anyways.

 

[clarkthompson]

I beileve to be cut off means He does away with our flesh as in we die so we dont corrupt people who have not recieved or people young belivers

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Lk 6:45-49 is all I can say! If our foundation is without the purity of grace through the unadulterated finished work of the cross then Christ is not the corner stone of our foundation and we have received the grace of God in vain. Whatever you think of a licentious gospel is not relevant or related to the gospel of Christ which is the power of God, not only to the saving of the soul but also to the transformation of that soul. Repentance will never create a capacity in the soul to receive the things of God, it takes the love, mercy, grace and patience of God to do that and when the believer has that capacity to receive, it won't be long before conviction settles in the heart and they are led to repentance by the goodness of God.

You are very structured about repentance in relationship to the gospel, to sin and to a transformed life. God would never permit any precious believer that belongs to Him to live in what you call 'licentiousness' as a practice. He would remove grace and chasten them for a time to win them back and produce the fruit of righteousness in their life. Your too negative when it comes to grace and you never see the power of God lifting and edifying the believer to raise him up in the last days. You seem to be a made of a certain structured faith that considers the awesomeness of the grace of God as something conditioned upon repentance instead of esteeming and magnifying the God of all grace who has called us to be merciful and to judge according to that mercy. We all need to grow up in the grace and knowledge of Christ and learn how to be kind, tenderhearted, full of grace and compassion and to keep ourselves in the love and mercy of God.

notice here

1. You never appologized for your errors in saying I would not do what I did.
2. You never admited your mistakes
3. You continue to refuse to acknowledge what true repentance is, and deny its true power in changing a persons life, giving them faith, and empowering our life to grow in christ.

you think it is all of mere belief, James says that is wrong thinking.

You do not even know what licentious means, It means a person has not repentned, he has a belief, but no faith in what he claims he believes in, They do not change their lives because they do not see the need, They do not stop living a sinfull lifestyle. because they do not think they are in sin.

You claim I am stuck on a word. I am not, I am stuck on a doctrine.

Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand
Repent and be cleansed.

Repent, turn from your old way of thinking, which alienates us from God, and turn to a new mind of knowing Gods prvision for our salvation, and his provision for our changed life.

Until you understand this, you will never understand the gospel.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Oh and btw, just to address a little bit of what what said earlier, that whole bit about Judas never being saved, the Bible disagrees with you on that.

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
Mark 16:16-18

And he called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases,
Luke 9:1

The twelve were given authority over demons and diseases, so that would include Judas. As Mark 16 says, those signs and wonder will follow. So why would Jesus give authority over demons and disease to Judas if Judas was not a follower of Christ (aka saved), when that's something reserved for those who are followers of Christ? (This question is for those who say Judas was never saved to begin with)

Disclaimer: as far as Judas' final state of salvation, we cannot make a conclusive statement whether or not he was saved when he ended his life on earth. That is ultimately between Judas and God anyways.

1. Jesus said Judas was lost. If you want to think he was saved, you call Jesus a liar.
2. Mark 16, are you willing to prove this passage is true? are you willing to drink poison or allow yourself to get bitten by a snake and prove you are saved by not dieing?
3. There is more than ample evidence to know and understand mark 16: 16 and on was added at a later date, for it does not make sense. not to mention, in every other time jesus says anything about recieving eternal life, he says, believe, without the word baptism.

I will say this though, If judas was at one time saved, then he did get to heaven, for if Judas lost his salvation by doing what he did, it says this.

1. Gods promise was null and void,
2. Judas had to earn his salvation by not sinning
3. God died for peters sins, but did not die for judas sins, which is not scriptural, because scripture says he died for all of mankinds sins, even those who will never come to him.

 

[megaman125]

1. Jesus said Judas was lost. If you want to think he was saved, you call Jesus a liar.

No, that's just you making assumptions and putting words in my mouth again to avoid the question that was presented to you.

2. Mark 16, are you willing to prove this passage is true? are you willing to drink poison or allow yourself to get bitten by a snake and prove you are saved by not dieing?

Blatently false teaching is false. Jesus did not command us to seek trouble and drink poison.

3. There is more than ample evidence to know and understand mark 16: 16 and on was added at a later date, for it does not make sense. not to mention, in every other time jesus says anything about recieving eternal life, he says, believe, without the word baptism.

So now you're admitting to denying parts of the Bible? Sorry but if you don't believe the Bible, then we should not be listening to you teach about it.

I will say this though, If judas was at one time saved, then he did get to heaven, for if Judas lost his salvation by doing what he did, it says this.

1. Gods promise was null and void,
2. Judas had to earn his salvation by not sinning
3. God died for peters sins, but did not die for judas sins, which is not scriptural, because scripture says he died for all of mankinds sins, even those who will never come to him.

1. No, that's not God backing out of his promises, that's Judas giving up his salvation, not God taking it back. Of course, the OSAS people always refuse to see it this way and continue to make assumptions and put words in peoples' mouths.
2. Again, no one is saying this. This is just another one of your false assumptions based on your fallacious doctrine.
3. Of course it's not scriptural, nor is it what any of us are saying. Why do you insist that the assumptions you make of everyone else are true?

 

[feedm3]

If you notice, everytime obedience is rejected, it's based on his erronous view. That view is that if he does his duty as a Christian, and makes it to heaven, then he "earned" his salvation, and was deserving of it.

That's why he cant understand what your saying. He's not going to as long as he feels his obedience quialifies him of being deserving. He has missed the point of Eph 2, and Luke 17:10

Luke 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do

1. "when ye have done ALL those things commanded" - implies a servant is expected to keep His commands

2. "say we are unprofitable servants" - teaches us that we in no way deserved anything simply by our obedience

3. "which have done that which is our duty" - Shows obedience is the Christians duty

He thinks if we do this duty for salvation, then it's earned and deserving, so he clearly ignores the attitude Jesus says we must have when doing our duty, humility.

One is not deserving of the effects (reward) of doing his duty. A duty is not "earning" because it is a requirement that must be meant in order to say one is a servant.

His view is telling us that a servant does not have to do his/her duty to get to heaven, and does not have to do all he commanded. Thats his mistake, and if he wants to believe by keeping God's commands he would be deserving of heaven, then pride has taken over his sense of interpretation in these easy passages.

HE states it as "fact" that one who obeys to get to heaven is "earning" and "deserving", when it ONLY fact to him, due to his unwillingness to see obedience as what Christ said it was - a duty
And unwillingness to have the humility to understand one who obeys is still an "unprofitable" servant.

If he wont see that, no amount of scripture will change his view, no amount of exposing his contradictions and inconsistencies, because he has not figured out his duty that is required of him, if he claims to be a servant of the Lord's.

 

[celestemekent]

Eternal security ONLY works if we are without freedom and that seems to be contrary to the facts. As long as we have the choice to sin we have risk not security.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[/color][/b]

No, that's just you making assumptions and putting words in my mouth again to avoid the question that was presented to you.

1. What question, I answered them.

2. Jesus made it clear. Non were lost but the son of perdition. All of you are clean but one (the one who would betray him, stating Jesus did not think he was saved before he even committed his sin)

Blatently false teaching is false. Jesus did not command us to seek trouble and drink poison.

No, according to jesus it says ANYONE who drinks poison or is bitten by a poisonous snake, they would NOT DIE. Which means that anyone who is saved would never succomb to these things, History shows this is not true, many a child of God has died by taking these things.

So now you're admitting to denying parts of the Bible? Sorry but if you don't believe the Bible, then we should not be listening to you teach about it.

If it is part of the bible, the bible is flawed, Because it states things which are not true. If you want a faulty bible, feel free.

1. No, that's not God backing out of his promises, that's Judas giving up his salvation, not God taking it back. Of course, the OSAS people always refuse to see it this way and continue to make assumptions and put words in peoples' mouths.

Judas did not give it back, He never had it. Again, Jesus said they all were clean, but one, Meaning Judas was never cleansed. He also said he never lost one of those God gave him, Yet judas left. As John says, they left but they were never of us, for if they were of us, they never would have left.

2. Again, no one is saying this. This is just another one of your false assumptions based on your fallacious doctrine.
3. Of course it's not scriptural, nor is it what any of us are saying. Why do you insist that the assumptions you make of everyone else are true?

lol. You say it, Yet you deny it. You can not even confess your denying the very thing you are saying, All your doing is fooling yourself into believing a false gospel of works., And denying the blood of Christ, which supposedly purchased you.

God is outside of time, Scripture says we were chosen before time began, Thus predestined to eternity with him before the earth was created based on Gods knowledge of everything we would ever do. God must not know everything, if he chose us before the foundation, then gave us his free gift. then took it back for whatever reason.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Eternal security ONLY works if we are without freedom and that seems to be contrary to the facts. As long as we have the choice to sin we have risk not security.

Actually you are wrong. Unless we are under law. Because the only way we can lose salvation by sin is if we are under law. Eternal security works, because we have to chose to trust God completely, and reject ourselves.

 

[megaman125]

No, according to jesus it says ANYONE who drinks poison or is bitten by a poisonous snake, they would NOT DIE. Which means that anyone who is saved would never succomb to these things, History shows this is not true, many a child of God has died by taking these things.

Try reading what I actually said, I said it WASN'T A COMMANDMENT FROM JESUS, but you keep talking as if I believe that is it a commandment, when I said the opposite.

lol. You say it, Yet you deny it. You can not even confess your denying the very thing you are saying, All your doing is fooling yourself into believing a false gospel of works., And denying the blood of Christ, which supposedly purchased you.

I'm done with this fruitless conversation with you. All you do and all you have continued to do is claim that I'm teaching a gospel of works, yet you have never once been able to quote where I said your salvation is earned by works (fun fact: it's because I haven't said that). I've said the opposite, but you continue to make your false assumptions and put words in my mouth.

 

[feedm3]

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover

The passage above was true. Many believed and could do these miraculous things, for one purpose "to confirm the word of God" "till we all come to the unity of the faith" (i.e. the full revelation from God to man - the Bible) -

Mrk 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen


This must be understood with this:
I COr 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away

The word "perfect" in the above passage means "complete", and was speaking of the time the Bible was finished, and now is, so theses miraculous gifts, including drinking poison etc, have ceased.

Now as John states, we read of them, that we might believe. We have the unity of the faith, that tells us the beginning of Christianity and the church, and how they came with power.

So to say the Bible isnt true because people are guilty of not keeping it in context is evil. Yet the long ending of Mark is not in many of the oldest Mss. But still if not there or there, there are plenty of other passages that affirm a Christian can reject his/her salvation, and that obedience is required to maintain salvation because it is a duty, not a work.

 

[Red33]

notice here

1. You never appologized for your errors in saying I would not do what I did.
2. You never admited your mistakes
3. You continue to refuse to acknowledge what true repentance is, and deny its true power in changing a persons life, giving them faith, and empowering our life to grow in christ.

you think it is all of mere belief, James says that is wrong thinking.

You do not even know what licentious means, It means a person has not repentned, he has a belief, but no faith in what he claims he believes in, They do not change their lives because they do not see the need, They do not stop living a sinfull lifestyle. because they do not think they are in sin.

You claim I am stuck on a word. I am not, I am stuck on a doctrine.

Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand
Repent and be cleansed.

Repent, turn from your old way of thinking, which alienates us from God, and turn to a new mind of knowing Gods prvision for our salvation, and his provision for our changed life.

Until you understand this, you will never understand the gospel.

You want to be commended for what you teach, let your elders do that because I do not agree with you and your heart is not established in grace. If you think for a moment that I believe that grace teaches that it's okay to live in sin, then you are not skilled in the words of righteousness and your discernment is way off. Perhaps that is because of what you are taught and practice in your local church. I know that there are areas in your life that you have repented of and have failed again in those areas, we all have because it takes the grace of God through the word and Spirit to transform and renew the mind.

This is how we learn to PUT OFF the old man and to PUT ON Christ, the new man. We sin in things that we know nothing about (ignorance because of a lack of faith) and God covers us with His love and never demands that we repent. Instead He gives us grace and knowledge so that we can grow out of our sin and learn to put on Christ. Those besetting sins we just lay them aside as we would a coat that is too heavy and burdensome without having to go through some major fan-fare with sorrow and repentance.

You don't understand that part of Christ and what He did on the cross in relationship through mercy and grace and how it applies to the believer as he grows up in Christ. Convictions plays a major roll in all this and it does not require hard repentance but simply agreeing with God. Agreeing with God's thoughts through the conviction of the word against our own thoughts is just as much a part of being renewed in Christ as any change you would like to see through repentance.

A believer has just had a bout with a wicked sin through weakness and he is laying on his bed feeling guilty and sorry for what he has done. He repents over and over to make sure that God knows he is serious about how sorry he is about his failure. He is broken and feels terrible and isolates himself. God ministers to him and tells him to stop dwelling on his sin because the sin has been put away and to get up and assemble himself with others and go minister the gospel to the lost. He tells God, 'I just sinned wickedly and I can't go soul winning, that would be hypocritical. I need time to heal'. 'What would the elders do if they find out what I have done? Would they discipline me and put me on probation'? God tells him to get up and go and leave your sin behind and remember it no more.

If the elders were Spirit-filled mature discerning Christians, they would not condemn or demand repentance but minister grace and cover that man with the love of God. They would not condone his sin neither would they condemn him for it. They would honor that man's priesthood and let him live by faith and work out his own salvation. They would let him grow in grace without repeating the matter or exposing his sin as some righteous over-lord. Do you understand that?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[/b][/color]

Try reading what I actually said, I said it WASN'T A COMMANDMENT FROM JESUS, but you keep talking as if I believe that is it a commandment, when I said the opposite.

You saying it was a command does not matter, what matters is what the passage says! If you would actually listen to what I said, I never said YOU SAID it was a command. I said JESUS SAID THEY WOULD BE SIGNS OF ALL WHO BELIEVE

17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they[b] will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

So tell me, do you believe? Then according to this passage you can and will,
Speak in tongues
Take up serpants and live
Drink poison and live
Lay hands on sick and they will recover.

So we are left with two options.

1. Jesus lied
2. This was not part of the origional text (it is missing from the two OLDEST greek texts we have in existence. This taken with the fact that those who believe are not given these things as signs to the world. and the fact Jesus NEVER used believe and baptize in any other passage in any of the gospels should be more than ample proof this text was added at a later date, Probably by a group trying to add baptism to the gospel of Christ.

I'm done with this fruitless conversation with you. All you do and all you have continued to do is claim that I'm teaching a gospel of works, yet you have never once been able to quote where I said your salvation is earned by works (fun fact: it's because I haven't said that). I've said the opposite, but you continue to make your false assumptions and put words in my mouth.

Fine, You better than your buddy here. Who continues to want to fight over the same stuff over and over (notice I am ignoring him)

He guess what, The roman catholic church declares they do not teach a gospel of works either. Do they ar do they not teach works? I think we both know the answer.

fact. Anyone who teaches one can lose salvation by ANY MEANS teaches a gospel of works. They are depending on themselves to do whatever it takes to earn salvation before saved (as in the catholic church) or to do whatever it takes to not lose salvation (as in your gospel)

ps, I bet you believe one must do the work of being water baptized to don't ya? Proof positive. your depending on self, and not the blood of Christ alone to save you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You want to be commended for what you teach, let your elders do that because I do not agree with you and your heart is not established in grace.

What is your beef? You said at least twice I would not tell you what repentance was. Yet all you do is continue to bash me, and not even admit your mistake. You did not even go over what I said repentance was, and either refute my claims, or show me where I was wrong, all you do is attack. And you want me and everyone else to listen to you?

My heart is established in Grace, God forgave David, a murderer, rapist and adulterer. he forgave saul, A murderer of Gods people. if God forgave them, he can forgive anyone. But what do you see brought both men to God? their feelings? NO REPENTANCE!

If you think for a moment that I believe that grace teaches that it's okay to live in sin, then you are not skilled in the words of righteousness and your discernment is way off.

if you think a person can come to saving faith without repentance and just mere belief, then my assumptions are perfectly on. Because James said so, so your argument is with james, not me.

Perhaps that is because of what you are taught and practice in your local church. I know that there are areas in your life that you have repented of and have failed again in those areas, we all have because it takes the grace of God through the word and Spirit to transform and renew the mind.

None of this matters. You once again prove you did not read anything I said. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT REPENTING OF PERSONAL SIN AREAS IN OUR LIFE. I AM TALKING ABOUT REPENTANCE AS A WHOLE. If you can't even get this straight, and continue to make claims whihc are totally apposed to what I said, then how can we continue?

The problem is NOT what I am taught in church, the problem is what your taught in your church, You continue to say I teach we must continue to repent of each personal sin in our life. WHEN THIS IS NOT SO!

This is how we learn to PUT OFF the old man and to PUT ON Christ, the new man. We sin in things that we know nothing about (ignorance because of a lack of faith) and God covers us with His love and never demands that we repent. Instead He gives us grace and knowledge so that we can grow out of our sin and learn to put on Christ. Those besetting sins we just lay them aside as we would a coat that is too heavy and burdensome

we agree 100 % here. But then you rip things apart by adding your next comment

without having to go through some major fan-fare with sorrow and repentance.

I AM NOT TEACHING THIS, WILL YOU GET THIS OUT OF YOUR HEAD, YOUR NOT TALKING TO A LEGALIST HERE!!

Nothing else you said even is responsive to what I said or what our discussion here, I am not going to keep saying I do not teach or believe something over and over again.

I told you what true repentance was, even after you claimed I would never do it. You never acknowledged what I said, You never acknowledged you were wrong in your false assumptions about me. and you continue to come at me with attacks and falsisms of things I am not teaching.

Do you want to discuss this. or continue to go over the same old false stuff??

1. I am not teaching repent from every personal sin.
2. I am not teaching you can lose salvation. YOU CAN"T We are saved based on Gods Grace, Christ' death, And Gods promise based on OUR FAITH. which can ONLY COME THROUGH REPENTANCE. Once we are saved, we HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, NOT CONDITIONAL LIFE.

Our argument is who is saved and given this eternal life, and who is just an impostor playing the game.

 

[Red33]

What is your beef? You said at least twice I would not tell you what repentance was. Yet all you do is continue to bash me, and not even admit your mistake. You did not even go over what I said repentance was, and either refute my claims, or show me where I was wrong, all you do is attack. And you want me and everyone else to listen to you?

My heart is established in Grace, God forgave David, a murderer, rapist and adulterer. he forgave saul, A murderer of Gods people. if God forgave them, he can forgive anyone. But what do you see brought both men to God? their feelings? NO REPENTANCE!




if you think a person can come to saving faith without repentance and just mere belief, then my assumptions are perfectly on. Because James said so, so your argument is with james, not me.

James did not and is not teaching in his epistle that salvation or justification is through repentance as you refer to it. A sinner comes to God and believes by faith upon the Son for salvation and for forgiveness and cleansing of sin because of the blood of the cross. He is instantly saved by grace without any of the repentance that you like to refer to and keep insisting must happen or it's only mere belief. If you are looking for an outward change, your not always going to get it, because salvation is by faith and it happens on the inside with the new inner man.

None of this matters. You once again prove you did not read anything I said. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT REPENTING OF PERSONAL SIN AREAS IN OUR LIFE. I AM TALKING ABOUT REPENTANCE AS A WHOLE. If you can't even get this straight, and continue to make claims whihc are totally apposed to what I said, then how can we continue?

The problem is NOT what I am taught in church, the problem is what your taught in your church, You continue to say I teach we must continue to repent of each personal sin in our life. WHEN THIS IS NOT SO!



we agree 100 % here. But then you rip things apart by adding your next comment


I AM NOT TEACHING THIS, WILL YOU GET THIS OUT OF YOUR HEAD, YOUR NOT TALKING TO A LEGALIST HERE!!

Nothing else you said even is responsive to what I said or what our discussion here, I am not going to keep saying I do not teach or believe something over and over again.

I told you what true repentance was, even after you claimed I would never do it. You never acknowledged what I said, You never acknowledged you were wrong in your false assumptions about me. and you continue to come at me with attacks and falsisms of things I am not teaching.

Do you want to discuss this. or continue to go over the same old false stuff??

1. I am not teaching repent from every personal sin.
2. I am not teaching you can lose salvation. YOU CAN"T We are saved based on Gods Grace, Christ' death, And Gods promise based on OUR FAITH. which can ONLY COME THROUGH REPENTANCE. Once we are saved, we HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, NOT CONDITIONAL LIFE.

Our argument is who is saved and given this eternal life, and who is just an impostor playing the game.

This form of repentance that many have been teaching is the new form of outward circumcision and it is has nothing to do with the grace and person of our Lord Jesus Christ. BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND THOU SHALT BE SAVED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! When a sinner believes upon the Son, they are turning from self unto God and agreeing with the gospel and that comes by faith WITH NO OUTWARD CHANGE. If you add the change part, it becomes a form of legalism, Oh yes it does! You may see an outward change with some, but you can't legislate that as a sign of true repentance. We are saved through faith because of the work of the cross and nothing else and it all takes place in the heart and soul of the sinner. Don't tell me that you agree with that because you don't and you like to add things to faith because you have the wrong understanding of the what Christ did for the sinner. You harp on people adding works to the gospel and you do that very thing by adding repentance to faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

James did not and is not teaching in his epistle that salvation or justification is through repentance as you refer to it. A sinner comes to God and believes by faith upon the Son for salvation and for forgiveness and cleansing of sin because of the blood of the cross. He is instantly saved by grace without any of the repentance that you like to refer to and keep insisting must happen or it's only mere belief. If you are looking for an outward change, your not always going to get it, because salvation is by faith and it happens on the inside with the new inner man.

1. James states a man who claims to have faith but has no works (an outside change as you like to put it) his faith is dead.
2. James then asks a question. Can a mans faith save him if he has no works (an outside change)?
3. He then gives the answer. Even demons believe yet tremble.

James makes it clear. A mere belief will not save you. you are no more saved than the heathen who deny's God.

Again, True faith comes from repentance.

Yet once again you STILL REFUSE to acknowledge what I posted concerning repentance. why is this?

ARE YOU AFRAID??

This form of repentance that many have been teaching is the new form of outward circumcision and it is has nothing to do with the grace and person of our Lord Jesus Christ. BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND THOU SHALT BE SAVED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! When a sinner believes upon the Son, they are turning from self unto God and agreeing with the gospel and that comes by faith

What you just posted, in my highlighted text, is true repentance. You see it takes repentance to come to that CHANGE. which is what the word repent means. However, as James said, it would not be a mere belief, it would be a true faith, which is a full assurance of What God said, What God did, and What God promised. that is what faith is!

WITH NO OUTWARD CHANGE.

James disagrees with you. Paul said we are saved by faith apart from works. those who are saved WILL, Not might, Do the work God created them to do. In other words, there will be some sort of outward change in their life. You can argue it all you want, you are arguing against the word of God.

If you add the change part, it becomes a form of legalism, Oh yes it does!

I did not add the change part. James and Paul did.

Legalism says one must work to be saved, or to keep salvation.

Faith says it is not of works. But faith produces works, which will be seen.

You may see an outward change with some, but you can't legislate that as a sign of true repentance.

You keep arguing with james, Faith without works is DEAD!

We are saved through faith because of the work of the cross and nothing else and it all takes place in the heart and soul of the sinner. Don't tell me that you agree with that because you don't and you like to add things to faith because you have the wrong understanding of the what Christ did for the sinner. You harp on people adding works to the gospel and you do that very thing by adding repentance to faith.

We are not saved to continue to live as we did when we were in the world. We can not recieve the spirit. Truly repent, Know our sin separates us from God, say we believe and continue to live as we did. God will not allow it, Our repentance would not allow it. And our gratitude would not allow it.

 

[megaman125]

You saying it was a command does not matter, what matters is what the passage says! If you would actually listen to what I said, I never said YOU SAID it was a command. I said JESUS SAID THEY WOULD BE SIGNS OF ALL WHO BELIEVE

Yeah it does matter, because saying we're supposed to go out and intentionally drink poison and get bitten by snakes is just twisting the scripture into something it's not.

17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they[b] will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

So tell me, do you believe? Then according to this passage you can and will,
Speak in tongues
Take up serpants and live
Drink poison and live
Lay hands on sick and they will recover.

So we are left with two options.

1. Jesus lied
2. This was not part of the origional text (it is missing from the two OLDEST greek texts we have in existence. This taken with the fact that those who believe are not given these things as signs to the world. and the fact Jesus NEVER used believe and baptize in any other passage in any of the gospels should be more than ample proof this text was added at a later date, Probably by a group trying to add baptism to the gospel of Christ.

Yes, I do believe that passage, just not in the false sense that you're putting it (again, it wasn't a commandment to go out and drink poison, but you keep pretending that it is). And if you want examples of Mark 16:17-18 in action, try reading the book of acts. You have many occassions where there was speaking in tongues, laying hands on the sick and them getting healed, and Paul was bitten by a snake.

fact. Anyone who teaches one can lose salvation by ANY MEANS teaches a gospel of works.

Your "fact" is dependant on making false assumptions and putting words in other peoples' mouths.

ps, I bet you believe one must do the work of being water baptized to don't ya? Proof positive. your depending on self, and not the blood of Christ alone to save you.

Hey look, just like I said, another assumption, and then you try to pass it off as "proof positive." Get over yourself.