Who is a Jew?

[doulos]

First, you are questioning God. Our place is to follow and obey, not tell God how to operate the world He created. Also, we are instructed about how to look at the Jews, and judging them is part of what we are told NOT to do. .

My friend take a little time and read through the posts/conversation and you will see I am not questioning God nor am I judging the Jews. I am questioning bookends and trying to find out how he explains these things, but then you would have recognized that had you actually read what I wrote in my posts in this thread instead of jumping to conclusions. Be blessed my friend

 

[Bookends]

How do you explain the elect that are enemies of the gospel for our sake but elect for their father’s sake?

Israel was elected as God's nation to take God's message to the world (1 Kings 88:59-60), but they failed. Although there is a true election within Israel, but not all. For example, God's prophets Elijah, Isaiah etc. etc. ., some kings such as David and Hezekiah etc. etc. and all the hero's of the faith mention in Hebrews and I'm sure a whole lot more are all of the elect. But those who did evil in sight of the Lord where not of the elect, such as the false prophets of Baal, there were all kinds of false prophets in Israel, and bad kings etc. etc. These people were not of the elect. The elect of God are those who say to God, "have it Your way" and the non-elect are those who say "I'll do it my way"...But thank God He always has a remnant. The land promise that God promise was fulfilled in Solomon's day.
1 Kings 8:56
56 “Blessed be the Lord, who has given rest to His people Israel, according to all that He promised. There has not failed one word of all His good promise, which He promised through His servant Moses. The land promise is only a facet of the Promise to Abraham and I believe it was conditional upon their faith and obedience. Over and over again God would tell them "if you obey me, my statues, my commandments, etc.in the OT. Surely I don't have to quote this for you right? and if they don't obey, here comes the curses.

If they are enemies of the gospel they aren’t Christians, how can one that is not a Christian be elect? I know my earlier post was lengthy (but so was your original post) but it does explain this mystery.

Enemies of the Gospel are not of the elect, where did ever say that? But, there was enemies of God in ancient Israel whoalso called themselves Israelites in those days too. Are they of the elect? I don't think so. If they were of the elect their hearts wouldn't have so hard, or God puts it "a stiff-necked people". The elect only applies to those who are saved by faith, OT saints and NT saints alike. There are those who say that are Christian too and who aren't as well (but I'm not pointing fingers, scripture clearly states that).

God is true to His word and has kept His everlasting covenant with the Jews (to this day) just as He will keep His covenant with the New Covenant believers.

[/quote)

The everlasting covenant IMO is when God told Abraham that all families of the world will bless through him (Abraham). Through Abraham's seed, and Isaac's seed ---> Which is Christ. All the families are bless through Christ who place their faith in Him. For have a heavenly hope, not an earthly one. Abraham wasn't looking for a little piece of land as his inheritance. He was looking for a far better promise. I believe Hebrews 11 explains this.

Hebrew 11:8
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.

The Heavenly Hope

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them (the New Jerusalem).


Abraham wasn't looking forward to the earthly promise, because considered himself a stranger to this earth. Jesus echoed the same thing when He said "my kingdom is not of this world." In my humble opinion, Jesus doesn't want an earthly reign on this fallen world, He could had it if we wanted it. Many and most Christians today I feel want to demote him from His heavenly seat next to His Father to an earthly, and sorry guys, I say poppycock!


I don't believe God is just interested in a little piece of real estate in the middle east, He's interested in the whole earth, and wants to re-create it for His bride. The redemption of everyone and everyone willing to receive Him That's whole theme of the bible is it not? Paradise lost to paradise restored? And God accomplished that through the SEED, Christ. We just await the final manisfestation of the re-creation at His 2nd coming.

I'm not the only one sounding arrogant and cocky in this thread! And please forgive me for it! But I do respect your opinion and interpretations and will study them further. Thank you. May God's peace and love fill you all.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Israel was elected as God's nation to take God's message to the world (1 Kings 88:59-60), but they failed. Although there is a true election within Israel, but not all. For example, God's prophets Elijah, Isaiah etc. etc. ., some kings such as David and Hezekiah etc. etc. and all the hero's of the faith mention in Hebrews and I'm sure a whole lot more are all of the elect. But those who did evil in sight of the Lord where not of the elect, such as the false prophets of Baal, there were all kinds of false prophets in Israel, and bad kings etc. etc. These people were not of the elect. The elect of God are those who say to God, "have it Your way" and the non-elect are those who say "I'll do it my way"...But thank God He always has a remnant. The land promise that God promise was fulfilled in Solomon's day.
[/color][/size][/font]1 Kings 8:56
56 “Blessed be the Lord, who has given rest to His people Israel, according to all that He promised. There has not failed one word of all His good promise, which He promised through His servant Moses. The land promise is only a facet of the Promise to Abraham and I believe it was conditional upon their faith and obedience. Over and over again God would tell them "if you obey me, my statues, my commandments, etc.in the OT. Surely I don't have to quote this for you right? and if they don't obey, here comes the curses.



Enemies of the Gospel are not of the elect, where did ever say that? But, there was enemies of God in ancient Israel whoalso called themselves Israelites in those days too. Are they of the elect? I don't think so. If they were of the elect their hearts wouldn't have so hard, or God puts it "a stiff-necked people". The elect only applies to those who are saved by faith, OT saints and NT saints alike. There are those who say that are Christian too and who aren't as well (but I'm not pointing fingers, scripture clearly states that).

God is true to His word and has kept His everlasting covenant with the Jews (to this day) just as He will keep His covenant with the New Covenant believers.

The everlasting covenant IMO is when God told Abraham that all families of the world will bless through him (Abraham). Through Abraham's seed, and Isaac's seed ---> Which is Christ. All the families are bless through Christ who place their faith in Him. For have a heavenly hope, not an earthly one. Abraham wasn't looking for a little piece of land as his inheritance. He was looking for a far better promise. I believe Hebrews 11 explains this.

Hebrew 11:8
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.

The Heavenly Hope

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them (the New Jerusalem).


Abraham wasn't looking forward to the earthly promise, because considered himself a stranger to this earth. Jesus echoed the same thing when He said "my kingdom is not of this world." In my humble opinion, Jesus doesn't want an earthly reign on this fallen world, He could had it if we wanted it. Many and most Christians today I feel want to demote him from His heavenly seat next to His Father to an earthly, and sorry guys, I say poppycock!


I don't believe God is just interested in a little piece of real estate in the middle east, He's interested in the whole earth, and wants to re-create it for His bride. The redemption of everyone and everyone willing to receive Him That's whole theme of the bible is it not? Paradise lost to paradise restored? And God accomplished that through the SEED, Christ. We just await the final manisfestation of the re-creation at His 2nd coming.

I'm not the only one sounding arrogant and cocky in this thread! And please forgive me for it! But I do respect your opinion and interpretations and will study them further. Thank you. May God's peace and love fill you all.

notice he did not come back at romans 11. Silence speaks loudly.

my friend you need to study more, and if you want to discuss things, you need to open your heart more. we all learn in here. My thoughts on end times have changed drastically since I grew up by studying, and listening to others with open eyes and heart. if our minds are closed, we will never learn anything.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Israel was elected as God's nation to take God's message to the world (1 Kings 88:59-60), but they failed. Although there is a true election within Israel, but not all. For example, God's prophets Elijah, Isaiah etc. etc. ., some kings such as David and Hezekiah etc. etc. and all the hero's of the faith mention in Hebrews and I'm sure a whole lot more are all of the elect. But those who did evil in sight of the Lord where not of the elect, such as the false prophets of Baal, there were all kinds of false prophets in Israel, and bad kings etc. etc. These people were not of the elect. The elect of God are those who say to God, "have it Your way" and the non-elect are those who say "I'll do it my way"...But thank God He always has a remnant. The land promise that God promise was fulfilled in Solomon's day.
[/color][/size][/font]1 Kings 8:56
56 “Blessed be the Lord, who has given rest to His people Israel, according to all that He promised. There has not failed one word of all His good promise, which He promised through His servant Moses. The land promise is only a facet of the Promise to Abraham and I believe it was conditional upon their faith and obedience. Over and over again God would tell them "if you obey me, my statues, my commandments, etc.in the OT. Surely I don't have to quote this for you right? and if they don't obey, here comes the curses.

1. All of Isreal was the elect. God promised Abraham ALL His children born of issac and Jacob were his elect.
2. God gave provisions for recieving the promises, they are found in lev 26. Read them and study them, for it gives punishment for the nation if they sin, and provisions for being restored to the promises.
3. Gods land promise was not a 1 time deal. God did not say I will give it to your descendents, THEN if they keep my commands they can keep it as an inheritance, he said I GIVE TO YOU AND YOUR DESCENDANTS AS AN ETERNAL POSSESSION. FOREVER..

Last I read, forever meant forever. Lev 26 tells us why they do not possess it now. Because they are in sin, It, along with many other OT prophesies, tells us how they will be restored. when they repent and come back to God and turn from their sin of playing the harlot with false Gods. Paul tells us this in romans 11. He even tells us the time, when the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled. We are in that time now!

Enemies of the Gospel are not of the elect, where did ever say that?

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

Any more questions. They are elect even though they are enemies. Not to eternal salvation, but to the promises made to the fathers.

 

[Elizabeth619]

Good mornin folks.
Whats goin on up in hurr.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Good mornin folks.
Whats goin on up in hurr.

GM sis, It is a monday morning. and not enough coffee..lol Hope you had a blessed weekend!

 

[Elizabeth619]

GM sis, It is a monday morning. and not enough coffee..lol Hope you had a blessed weekend!

A weekend full of 5 extra children(nieces and nephews) where 3 of them are ADHD, and their father doesnt seem to understand the concept of discipline. My house is destroyed because of them. Not a happy money for me, but at least it can't get worse.

On a side not(not meaning you EG) but some of you are just stinking RUDE! It is one thing to disagree, but good grief some of you need to stop being jerks. I am blunt. I am outspoken, and even I am offended by some of the comments here.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A weekend full of 5 extra children(nieces and nephews) where 3 of them are ADHD, and their father doesnt seem to understand the concept of discipline. My house is destroyed because of them. Not a happy money for me, but at least it can't get worse.

lol. Long weekend for you and alot to clean. wow you have your monday set up.. Hope it is not too bad.

 

[Bookends]

1. All of Isreal was the elect. God promised Abraham ALL His children born of issac and Jacob were his elect.

The beginning of Romans seems clear to me that the Remnant 7000 plus Elijah was God's chosen, elect, and the rest where not.

Romans 11
1I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

And again IMO, this is why God chose the 7000 for His elect by grace is because at that time all the promises were not fulfilled because of the love God had for the patriarchs. God had to bring them out of Babylon, the 70 years of captivity, because God had to remember His promise, which was the Christ child. All things are fulfilled in Christ and the only thing we are waiting for is His return.

2. God gave provisions for recieving the promises, they are found in lev 26. Read them and study them, for it gives punishment for the nation if they sin, and provisions for being restored to the promises.
3. Gods land promise was not a 1 time deal. God did not say I will give it to your descendents, THEN if they keep my commands they can keep it as an inheritance, he said I GIVE TO YOU AND YOUR DESCENDANTS AS AN ETERNAL POSSESSION. FOREVER..

IMO, what's forever is the Heavenly promise to both to the believing OT saint and the NT saints. God's remnant people. And is our dispute, was God making His promise to those who are of the SEED of Abraham and Isaac, Christ. Those who join Christ. Or your opinion, maybe don't believe it is your opinion, in that you think that you know it, the promise is still a physical Seed.

Last I read, forever meant forever. Lev 26 tells us why they do not possess it now. Because they are in sin, It, along with many other OT prophesies, tells us how they will be restored. when they repent and come back to God and turn from their sin of playing the harlot with false Gods. Paul tells us this in romans 11. He even tells us the time, when the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled. We are in that time now!

Does forever always mean forever? I know you will not like me for this, lol...but here it goes:

owlam (for *ever*) Strongs H57691) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world 1a) ancient time, long time (of past) 1b) (of future) 1b1) for ever, always 1b2) continuous existence, perpetual 1b3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

I think I could find some verses that fit the definition of forever as "a long duration". but I just don't have the time atm.

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

Because the God's work wasn't done yet with the Jews, they had to come back from Babylon to fulfill prophecy. In which again, Jesus Christ fulfills all the things spoken by the prophets.


I have to go, I like to say more but can't..I have a job and a family..but I will continue our conversation if we can do it with charity.

 

[Bookends]

Good mornin folks.
Whats goin on up in hurr.

I'm getting beat up!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[/color][/color]

The beginning of Romans seems clear to me that the Remnant 7000 plus Elijah was God's chosen, elect, and the rest where not.

Romans 11
1I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

And again IMO, this is why God chose the 7000 for His elect by grace is because at that time all the promises were not fulfilled because of the love God had for the patriarchs. God had to bring them out of Babylon, the 70 years of captivity, because God had to remember His promise, which was the Christ child. All things are fulfilled in Christ and the only thing we are waiting for is His return.

Well I disagree.

1. Paul says they are our enemy.
2. We are not talking about the OT, but the present (as paul was in romans 11)
3. We are not talking about eternity here. Being a child of Isreal never guaranteed a person eternal life. Rom 9 explains this clearly.
4. Again, A promise which is eternal in nature is eternal, whether they recieved it completly or not, it does not matter. Gods covenant with abraham was not a conditional covenant. A conditional covenant is "if you do this, I will do that" God did not say this. He said I WILL. When God says I WILL, he will do it not based on us, or anyone else, but based on HIS CHARACTER. It is Gods character we are talking about here. Not mans sin.
5. David too talked about the 70 years. He prayed for HIS PEOPLE, and HIS CITY because they were in captivity and the city was in ruin for their sin. Gabriel gave Daniel an answer, 70 weeks. This has not been fulfilled completely yet. Only in part (at the end of 69 weeks shall messiah be cut off or killed)

finally, You have yet to answer how one can be hated as enemies, but loved because of election yet.

[/color]IMO, what's forever is the Heavenly promise to both to the believing OT saint and the NT saints. God's remnant people. And is our dispute, was God making His promise to those who are of the SEED of Abraham and Isaac, Christ. Those who join Christ. Or your opinion, maybe don't believe it is your opinion, in that you think that you know it, the promise is still a physical Seed.[/color]

1. Lev 26 is not given to us (did you even read it)
2. Lev 26 does not concern how one gets to heaven, or one misses out
3. Lev 26 is Gods covenent through moses as to what the physical descendants of Isreal need to do to live in peace, Have Gods protection, and actually live in the land God gave them. It also tells what will happen if they disobay. it also tells them, if they are scattered all throughout the gentile world because of sin, and their city is in ruin, what they must do to have these things restored to them.
4. They have nothing to do with any gentile, christian or non christian.

Does forever always mean forever? I know you will not like me for this, lol...but here it goes:
[/color][/size][/font]
owlam (for *ever*) Strongs H57691) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world 1a) ancient time, long time (of past) 1b) (of future) 1b1) for ever, always 1b2) continuous existence, perpetual 1b3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

I think I could find some verses that fit the definition of forever as "a long duration". but I just don't have the time atm.

I bet you don't think eternal life means forever do you? I also told you to be careful with strongs. If God can't keep his eternal promise to abraham and his physical children through Issacc and jacob, What is stopping God from keeping his eternal promise to us and not changing his mind and taking it back. Because we would never earn Gods love or salvation.

Because the God's work wasn't done yet with the Jews, they had to come back from Babylon to fulfill prophecy. In which again, Jesus Christ fulfills all the things spoken by the prophets.

What does babylon have to do with it? when they returned from babylon prophesy was not completely fulfilled. They never returned to posses the land, They were in it, but under gentile rule. Prophesy states when they repent and return, they will return under their own rule, under their own king, and the gentiles who treated them badly would be severely punished. Isreal is still in sin, They have not yet repentned of what took them to babylon in the first place.

 

[1Christianwarrior316]

On a side not(not meaning you EG) but some of you are just stinking RUDE! It is one thing to disagree, but good grief some of you need to stop being jerks.

I wonder if that’s what the Scribes and Pharisees thought when Our Lord was bearing witness to the Truth because it didn’t fit their man made doctrine.

Just a thought.

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316

 

[Elizabeth619]

I wonder if that’s what the Scribes and Pharisees thought when Our Lord was bearing witness to the Truth because it didn’t fit their man made doctrine.

Just a thought.

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316

Should I have used the term brood of vipers instead?

 

[1Christianwarrior316]

Should I have used the term brood of vipers instead?

Well sister, you do as you are led to do. I have not seen anybody being rude or a jerk as you stated in any of the posts. Only those who are bearing witness of the Truth in light of what scripture is revealing unto us.

If our doctrine is not in harmony with God’s Word then we should change our doctrine. Not twist the scriptures to make them support our doctrine.

And with that let me leave you with the following verse.
Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316

 

[Bookends]

Well I disagree.

1. Paul says they are our enemy.

And Saul/Paul was our enemy at one time in his life.

2. We are not talking about the OT, but the present (as paul was in romans 11)

But Paul did talk about the OT in the beginning of Romans. Paul mentioned a time in Israel's history where Elijah thought he was the only one left faithful to God. But God assured him that He had a remnant of 7000 people, who what? NEVER bowed a knee to Baal (based on God's commandment). God marked them on their forehead and hand, meaning they were saved by faith by what they believed in their minds and what they did with their hands, their physical walk, obedience in thought and deed. And here lies the answer to your question that you accuse me of not answering.

3. We are not talking about eternity here. Being a child of Isreal never guaranteed a person eternal life. Rom 9 explains this clearly.

You just answered you own question without knowing it. A true is not one outwardly with flesh and bones, but one inwardly. And you have to read Romans 9,10 and 11 together to answer the question who all Israel was? It's all one big thought, and should have been lumped into 1 big chapter IMO.

4. Again, A promise which is eternal in nature is eternal, whether they recieved it completly or not, it does not matter. Gods covenant with abraham was not a conditional covenant. A conditional covenant is "if you do this, I will do that" God did not say this.

He did say this, Read Deuteronomy chapter 7, and this is plastered all over the OT, how could have you missed it?

Verse 9 9 “Therefore know that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments; There it is, God keeps his covenant and mercy to those who LOVE him and Keep His Commandments.

Israel as a nation was chosen for a purpose, to bring the knowledge of God to the world. But they failed. Is God in the business of saving nations, or individuals?
Deuteronomy 7:6-7
6 “For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth. 7 The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples;

Here is the condition
Deuteronomy 8:19-20
19 Then it shall be, if you by any means forget the Lord your God, and follow other gods, and serve them and worship them, I testify against you this day that you shall surely perish. 20 As the nations which the Lord destroys before you, so you shall perish, because you would not be obedient to the voice of the Lord your God. Israel broke the Covenant, the agreement that God made with them

and verse 11,11 “Beware that you do not forget the Lord your God by not keeping His commandments, His judgments, and His statutes which I command you today,

He said I WILL. When God says I WILL, he will do it not based on us, or anyone else, but based on HIS CHARACTER. It is Gods character we are talking about here. Not mans sin.

What do you mean by this?

5. David too talked about the 70 years. He prayed for HIS PEOPLE, and HIS CITY because they were in captivity and the city was in ruin for their sin. Gabriel gave Daniel an answer, 70 weeks. This has not been fulfilled completely yet. Only in part (at the end of 69 weeks shall messiah be cut off or killed)

No, it is fully fulfilled, after the 69th week, puts you in the 70th week, and in the 70th week the Messiah was cut off and killed, Jesus was crucified. This prophecy was given so Daniel and Israelites would know when their Messiah was coming, the the majority of them missed it.

finally, You have yet to answer how one can be hated as enemies, but loved because of election yet.

Yes I have answered this, just not to your satisfaction. IM humble O, you fail to recognized who the election really is!

You say the nation of ancient Israel was the elect, Well, then the elect killed the Elect of God (Jesus Christ). In one aspect ancient Israel was chosen and elected (for a purpose) and in another sense they were not of the Elect (who is Jesus Christ, and those who love Him and obey Him, and receive Him. His church of saints OT and NT). But God still loves them on behave of their for Fathers, for they can be grafted back in, just as Saul/Paul was grafted back, and this is by grace, by faith, in all that Jesus Christ accomplished. God has not forgotten them, any Jew today can still receive the promise and be grafted back in. The cross just wasn't for the gentiles, it was for the Jews and Gentiles. And God keeps HIS promises to the natural Jew IF they repent and accept the messiah.

1. Lev 26 is not given to us (did you even read it)[\quote]

I resent comments like this, therefore I chose not to respond.

2. Lev 26 does not concern how one gets to heaven, or one misses out

In a greater understanding it does. It outlines the conditions of the covenant (the land contract) between Israel and God. The land represents something.

Leviticus 26
15 and if you despise My statutes, or if your soul abhors My judgments, so that you do not perform all My commandments, but break My covenant, (Israel broke the covenant, therefore God is not obligated to keep the land promise forever). 16 I also will do this to you:
I will even appoint terror over you, wasting disease and fever which shall consume the eyes and cause sorrow of heart.


Isreal broke the covenant, but God has not forgotten them, because they can be grated back into the Elect (which are those who are in Christ, who are Christs), and believing gentiles (who really aren't gentiles after regeneration, but Paul uses the term to identify and make a distinction) should not boast and be arrogant against the Jew, in the way the free gift and mercy that God has given them, because God can easily Cut them off as well (in unbelief). And when a Jew does come to faith, the dead as been given life and adds life and clarity to the faith and church, for they are more familiar with the types and shadows of the OT and shed light to the gentile for a higher understand of God's way and character. This is what Romans 9,10, and 11 is all about IM Humble O.

3. Lev 26 is Gods covenent through moses as to what the physical descendants of Isreal need to do to live in peace, Have Gods protection, and actually live in the land God gave them. It also tells what will happen if they disobay. it also tells them, if they are scattered all throughout the gentile world because of sin, and their city is in ruin, what they must do to have these things restored to them.

Yes, and Israel of today has never done them. They as a whole still reject Christ, you can't even preach the Gospel on the streets in Israel, it's against the Law over there. There Law over their are against God, contrary to Him still. And the other way things will be restored to them is if they repent;

40 ‘But if (IF IF IF) they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me, (Israel has never done this as a nation)

41 and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies;
if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, (the key to everyones salvation) and they accept their guilt—(the key to everyones salvation) (Todays Israel has never done this).

42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember; (it's conditional)

I will remember the land. (the restored Earth, the new heavens and earth, the new Jerusalem)



While you look forward to a restored natural/physical land of Israel, a tiny strip of land, I'll be looking for the re-creation of the heavens and earth (this is the promise, the hope that we all should earnestly seeking and waiting for).

4. They have nothing to do with any gentile, christian or non christian.

I bet you don't think eternal life means forever do you? I also told you to be careful with strongs. If God can't keep his eternal promise to abraham and his physical children through Issacc and jacob, What is stopping God from keeping his eternal promise to us and not changing his mind and taking it back. Because we would never earn Gods love or salvation.

Why can't you just say you disagree instead without insulting me? I'm not the only professing Christian who believes in what I'm saying. God's eternal salvation is through Christ alone for everybody, not through any natural/physical nation or ethnic group.

Ephesians 3:21
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen. (all generations means all, OT saints (church) and NT saints (church)

I am done responding to your questions. May God's peace and love indwell you!

May God forgive me for any misunderstanding I may have concerning His word and character and correct me through His chastisement and show me my errors and help me articulate the truths of your Word for the benefit of your Kingdom, make be servant oh Lord. See that the intentions of my heart is not to mislead but add light and understanding. May God give to me what I justly deserve (which isn't much if anything)!

 

[JaumeJ]

There are those who say they are Jews and are not, rather they are a synagogue of Satan. I believe Jew here refers to praisers of Yahweh, be it in the name of Jesus, Yeshua, or simply praisers of the Maker who have not yet come to the knowledge of Jesus, Yeshua. It is not ours to judge for God will justify the ungodly, and if this is not a stern warning against judging, I can think of nothing more direct.
Paul was referring to the opposing Jews of the time of the early assemblies of Yahweh, God. He says elsewhere how much he would that all Jews be saved, so we cannot say who is or is not, however we are told by the Master to judge for ourselves what is right, for ourselves! When we see people acting contrary to our understanding of what good conduct is, we disapprove, but never do we judge to damnation. That type of judgment will be given the saints after the thrones are set up, and not before. To begin this type of judgment now is to begin reigning the Kingdom without the King having returned. Now how perverse is that thought!? There are many prophesies of the Jews all being saved, and many seem to be specific about the race while others seem to refer to the one flock made from the original and that other flock. Years of meditation have settled my heart, soul and mind on this subject, not to mention having concluded our Maker, God, is always good and everything He does, He does out of Love, for He is Love, amen.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And Saul/Paul was our enemy at one time in his life.

yes he was, but as paul said, he is not talking about the gospel.he is talking about the election. Paul was an elect as a jew, But an enemy as per the gospel. if he did not repent, he would have continued to be such till this day.

But Paul did talk about the OT in the beginning of Romans. Paul mentioned a time in Israel's history where Elijah thought he was the only one left faithful to God. But God assured him that He had a remnant of 7000 people, who what? NEVER bowed a knee to Baal (based on God's commandment). God marked them on their forehead and hand, meaning they were saved by faith by what they believed in their minds and what they did with their hands, their physical walk, obedience in thought and deed. And here lies the answer to your question that you accuse me of not answering.

we are not talking about the beginning of romans, we are talking about the time Paul wrote this letter, when he stated physical isreal was our enemy concerning the gospel, but beloved because of the election. And also the time paul said they would all be saved, when the time of the gentiles has been fulfilled. Your go way back to the OT when paul is talking present. so no you did not answer.

You just answered you own question without knowing it. A true is not one outwardly with flesh and bones, but one inwardly. And you have to read Romans 9,10 and 11 together to answer the question who all Israel was? It's all one big thought, and should have been lumped into 1 big chapter IMO.

and you just completely ignored what I said and put your own twist in it. Romans 9 concerns who is saved and who is not, and debunks the fact the jews thought by being natural jews they got an automatic in. Romans 11, paul shifts gears. he no longer talks about who is going to heaven and who is not. But what Gods plan is for the nation of Isreal, warning us gentile believers we should not get arrogant and be to proud, because Gods promises and election still stand, and although the nation of Isreal as a whole has rejected God so we gentiles can be saved. There will be a time when we gentiles will fail, and they will turn back, and all isreal will be saved. Your also ignoring the fact in Rom 11. Paul separates Isreal and Gentile saved or not. He called US gentile believers, not spiritual Isreal. He called some Saved Isreal ( such as himself) and some unsaved Isreal. You have to separate the two. where in chapter 9, he said we were all one under Christ, a completely different context.


He did say this, Read Deuteronomy chapter 7, and this is plastered all over the OT, how could have you missed it?

Verse 9 9 “Therefore know that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments; There it is, God keeps his covenant and mercy to those who LOVE him and Keep His Commandments.[/quote]

This only is applicable IF GOD TOLD ABRAHAM IT WAS CONDITIONAL ON THIS. there was NO CONDITIONAL COVENANT. Duteronomy is speaking of the mosaic covenant, which WAS CONDITIONAL.

Israel as a nation was chosen for a purpose, to bring the knowledge of God to the world. But they failed. Is God in the business of saving nations, or individuals?
Deuteronomy 7:6-7
6 “For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth. 7 The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples;

Yep I agree. But again, we are not talking about Gods covenant with Abraham here. And yet again, The OT is full of prophesies which show this nation will sin, Be scattered, And later, when the gentile dominion is complete. be restored. You continue to deny this.

They are not restored JUST because they are Isreal. they are restored BECAUSE THEY REPENT.

Here is the condition
Deuteronomy 8:19-20
19 Then it shall be, if you by any means forget the Lord your God, and follow other gods, and serve them and worship them, I testify against you this day that you shall surely perish. 20 As the nations which the Lord destroys before you, so you shall perish, because you would not be obedient to the voice of the Lord your God. Israel broke the Covenant, the agreement that God made with them

And? This just coincided with Lev 26. which was the condition of the mosaic covenant. Why do you ignore it? are you afraid to look at it?

40 ‘But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me, 41 and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—

42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;I will remember the land.


43 The land also shall be left empty by them, and will enjoy its sabbaths while it lies desolate without them; they will accept their guilt, because they despised My judgments and because their soul abhorred My statutes. 44 Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and BREAK MY COVENANT WITH THEM! for I am the Lord their God.
45 But for their sake I will remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God:
I am the Lord.’”


I guess we just ignore all this huh? According to you there is no covenant anymore. Yet God right here through Moses said their is, even when they sin and are scattered as they have been since 70 AD, God will still remember his covenant when they repent. Just like paul said he would in romans 11!

What do you mean by this?

If I make a contract with you and say I WILL do this. and in this contract ask nothing in return from you (which God did with abraham) it is an I WILL contract, which is one sided. It means, unless I BREAK THE CONTRACT. I am bound to fulfill this contract forever, If I break it for any reason based on what you did or do not do. I break my contract with you.,

Most contracts are 2 sided, if you do this (condition) I will do that. (like the mosaic covenant)

Gods contract with Abraham, He said I WILL, he never said if you, or your descendants after you, do this (Abraham and Isreals part of the covenant) I will do this. He said I WILL. and he said FOREVER.

If abrahams covenant is no longer valid. Then God broke his own promise with them. what kind of God breaks his promise to people? is this the God you want me to worship?

No, it is fully fulfilled, after the 69th week, puts you in the 70th week, and in the 70th week the Messiah was cut off and killed, Jesus was crucified. This prophecy was given so Daniel and Israelites would know when their Messiah was coming, the the majority of them missed it.

1. No, It was given to Give daniel hope that one day his people would turn from their sin and return to God, (make an end of sin)
2. Gabriel said messiah the prince will come in the 69th week. History shows this date is exactly the date jesus rode in the city on a donkey, he even stated it by proclaiming if they only knew what day this was, now it would be hidden. a week later he was "cut off" just as the prophesy said it would. But as jesus said, God hid it from them.
3. As for what happens after this 69th week. Read it, then look at matt 24 they parallel. And know that it is at the end of this time that the "sin of Isreal will be done away with"

Yes I have answered this, just not to your satisfaction. IM humble O, you fail to recognized who the election really is!

Oh but you have not answered. You think there is just one election. Scripture speaks of two. Those elect to eternity with God thorugh Christ. And those chosen to be Gods people on earth. having absolutely nothing to do with who gets to heaven. You try as many do, and make this one election when it is not. Never has been. God never promised Abraham all his children through the chosen son would be saved and given eternal life. He chose to elect them to be his people, and gave them land. And humble? you? I have not seen it yet. But I pray to see it soon.

You say the nation of ancient Israel was the elect, Well, then the elect killed the Elect of God (Jesus Christ).

Yep they did, Just as prophesied. It does not mean God did not elect to chose them to give them the land they were in when they did it, or to punish them and remove them from the land when they did not obey him, as we have already discussed.

In one aspect ancient Israel was chosen and elected (for a purpose) and in another sense they were not of the Elect (who is Jesus Christ, and those who love Him and obey Him, and receive Him. His church of saints OT and NT).

Actually, what you speak of here is 2 different elections. Once concerning here on earth, and one concerning eternity. Both separate and having nothing to do with each other.

But God still loves them on behave of their for Fathers, for they can be grafted back in, just as Saul/Paul was grafted back, and this is by grace, by faith, in all that Jesus Christ accomplished. God has not forgotten them, any Jew today can still receive the promise and be grafted back in. The cross just wasn't for the gentiles, it was for the Jews and Gentiles. And God keeps HIS promises to the natural Jew IF they repent and accept the messiah.

Again. Paul said there is no jew and gentile, why are you trying to separate them? Yes God can graft them back into the vine, But Paul is not talking about that promise, he is talking about them as a nation repenting and returning to God by accepting their messiah. And he tells us when, then the time of the gentile is fulfilled. We are the gentile, it is our time now to be Gods representatives on earth, because Isreal failed. We will fail too, as there will be a falling away, and our falling away will cause God to remove the blindness from Isreal, and they will repent, and be returned to their rightful status.

In a greater understanding it does. It outlines the conditions of the covenant (the land contract) between Israel and God. The land represents something.

It outlines the condition of the mosaic covenant not the Abrahamic covenant.

This outlines how they get to posees the land that is theirs, and how they will be thrown out of th eland that is still theirs.

Leviticus 26
15 and if you despise My statutes, or if your soul abhors My judgments, so that you do not perform all My commandments, but break My covenant, (Israel broke the covenant, therefore God is not obligated to keep the land promise forever). 16 I also will do this to you:
I will even appoint terror over you, wasting disease and fever which shall consume the eyes and cause sorrow of heart.


Isreal broke the covenant, but God has not forgotten them, because they can be grated back into the Elect (which are those who are in Christ, who are Christs), and believing gentiles (who really aren't gentiles after regeneration, but Paul uses the term to identify and make a distinction) should not boast and be arrogant against the Jew, in the way the free gift and mercy that God has given them, because God can easily Cut them off as well (in unbelief). And when a Jew does come to faith, the dead as been given life and adds life and clarity to the faith and church, for they are more familiar with the types and shadows of the OT and shed light to the gentile for a higher understand of God's way and character. This is what Romans 9,10, and 11 is all about IM Humble O.[/quote]

Notice how you stopped at one point and did not finish the whole passage? How can we discuss scripture when you do this? you don't tear a passage apart by leaving things out, in order to fulfill your belief and ocnvince others. anyone who is open will study the whole passage, and would see what you did.

Yes, and Israel of today has never done them. They as a whole still reject Christ, you can't even preach the Gospel on the streets in Israel, it's against the Law over there. There Law over their are against God, contrary to Him still. And the other way things will be restored to them is if they repent;

40 ‘But if (IF IF IF) they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me, (Israel has never done this as a nation)

41 and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies;
if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, (the key to everyones salvation) and they accept their guilt—(the key to everyones salvation) (Todays Israel has never done this).

42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember; (it's conditional)

I will remember the land. (the restored Earth, the new heavens and earth, the new Jerusalem)

ok, here you did look at that, so I confess I was wrong.

However, you added to scripture

God never promised abraham or his people a new heaven and earth or new jerusalem. Thus your adding to the word. God promised him land boundaries in ancient and modern day canaan. Nothing else. The return to the land would be this physical property/. Notice he even says it will remain barren for a time. The new hjerusalem will not remain barren as it finishes its sabbath.

While you look forward to a restored natural/physical land of Israel, a tiny strip of land, I'll be looking for the re-creation of the heavens and earth (this is the promise, the hope that we all should earnestly seeking and waiting for).

what you do not think I am looking for that too? I will get that, as will ALL of those who accept Christ.

As for Isreal being returned to physical isreal. I could care less, it does not affect me. Nor am I looking forward to it. I have more important things to worry about. But as for whether it will happen or not. God said it will, He prophesied it would many places in the OT. Paul says in romans 11 God will remember when they repent. It is not that I look for it. It is that God said it will happen, and I trust God. not man.

Why can't you just say you disagree instead without insulting me? I'm not the only professing Christian who believes in what I'm saying. God's eternal salvation is through Christ alone for everybody, not through any natural/physical nation or ethnic group.

See you did not even answer my question. And you went off on some side street. what does ethnicity have to do with it. I never claimed it did, never will.

you see the problem. If God will not keep his promise to a nation of people. what is going to gaurantee he will keep his promise to us and not just take his gift back because we do not meet the standard?

Ephesians 3:21

to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen. (all generations means all, OT saints (church) and NT saints (church)

I am done responding to your questions. May God's peace and love indwell you!

May God forgive me for any misunderstanding I may have concerning His word and character and correct me through His chastisement and show me my errors and help me articulate the truths of your Word for the benefit of your Kingdom, make be servant oh Lord. See that the intentions of my heart is not to mislead but add light and understanding. May God give to me what I justly deserve (which isn't much if anything)!

Not sure what this is for. Again Gods covenant with abraham never had a thing to do with ones eternal status with God, if it did, All people born of abraham issac and jacob would be saved by being born into that family. We both know that is not the case.

 

[Bookends]

yes he was, but as paul said, he is not talking about the gospel.he is talking about the election. Paul was an elect as a jew, But an enemy as per the gospel. if he did not repent, he would have continued to be such till this day.

I don't see how you can be of God's true elect and still be enemy of the gospel. I think you see apostate Israel as God's elect. I don't. God's true elect were always the people who had a heart after God from the beginning of time. Therefore, in my own understanding, Israel was elected and can be called the elect in the sense that God chose them to fulfill His plans, but not is same sense of the eternal elect. So in one sense ancient Israel are elected, and in another sense are not the elect.

[/color][/color][/color][/color]

we are not talking about the beginning of romans, we are talking about the time Paul wrote this letter, when he stated physical isreal was our enemy concerning the gospel, but beloved because of the election. And also the time paul said they would all be saved, when the time of the gentiles has been fulfilled. Your go way back to the OT when paul is talking present. so no you did not answer.

I wonder if just our brains think differently here and we are not connecting mentally. Romans 11 has been the subject all along I thought. All Paul uses the OT to answer the question in the present as He often did.

and you just completely ignored what I said and put your own twist in it. [\quote]

Not intentionally, I'm really trying to understand what you are saying!

Romans 9 concerns who is saved and who is not, and debunks the fact the jews thought by being natural jews they got an automatic in. Romans 11, paul shifts gears. he no longer talks about who is going to heaven and who is not. But what Gods plan is for the nation of Isreal, warning us gentile believers we should not get arrogant and be to proud, because Gods promises and election still stand, and although the nation of Isreal as a whole has rejected God so we gentiles can be saved. There will be a time when we gentiles will fail,

so that how you interpret the "fullness of the gentiles", the fall of the gentiles? if so, then where else in scripture does it say this?

and they will turn back, and all isreal will be saved. Your also ignoring the fact in Rom 11. Paul separates Isreal and Gentile saved or not. He called US gentile believers, not spiritual Isreal. He called some Saved Isreal ( such as himself) and some unsaved Isreal. You have to separate the two. where in chapter 9, he said we were all one under Christ, a completely different context. [/guote]

I will entertain this and ponder over it.

He did say this, Read Deuteronomy chapter 7, and this is plastered all over the OT, how could have you missed it?

Verse 9 9 “Therefore know that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments; There it is, God keeps his covenant and mercy to those who LOVE him and Keep His Commandments.

.

Yep I agree. But again, we are not talking about Gods covenant with Abraham here. And yet again, The OT is full of prophesies which show this nation will sin, Be scattered, And later, when the gentile dominion is complete. be restored. You continue to deny this. [/guote]

Yes, I see the land promise, old Israel as a type and shadow of new heaven and earth.

They are not restored JUST because they are Isreal. they are restored BECAUSE THEY REPENT.

[/guote]

So you are saying this a future event? what will that look like, How does a whole nation repent? And after they repent, is that 1000 reign of Christ on earth?

And? This just coincided with Lev 26. which was the condition of the mosaic covenant. Why do you ignore it? are you afraid to look at it?

40 ‘But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me, 41 and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—

42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;I will remember the land.


43 The land also shall be left empty by them, and will enjoy its sabbaths while it lies desolate without them; they will accept their guilt, because they despised My judgments and because their soul abhorred My statutes. 44 Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and BREAK MY COVENANT WITH THEM! for I am the Lord their God.
45 But for their sake I will remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God:
I am the Lord.’”

I don't ignore it, I place it in the era what it was meant, the time of the Babylon captivity the land enjoyed it's sabbaths, because Israel did not keep the sabbaths. The land had rest. While while they were in the 70 years of Babylon captivity, and God did not cast them away, He brought them back to build the 2nd temple etc. etc.

I guess we just ignore all this huh? According to you there is no covenant anymore. Yet God right here through Moses said their is, even when they sin and are scattered as they have been since 70 AD, God will still remember his covenant when they repent. Just like paul said he would in romans 11!

LoL, There is a new covenant, because the old one failed in what it was supposed to accomplish. Well, at least that's my understanding of it. I am sure I need more study on it.

I have to go, I can't respond to all your comments, sorry...and I won't be able to respond for awhile. My step son is having open heart surgery tomorrow, He's only nineteen. Please pray for him, and for his salvation too. thanks

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't see how you can be of God's true elect and still be enemy of the gospel. I think you see apostate Israel as God's elect.

of course you cant.

1. your eyes are closed. and your not even trying to see what i believe
2. you think Gods covenant with abraham only concerns salvation. when in fact it does not
3. your single minded as to what elect means. and refuse to see there were two elections.

Paul did not say rome was beloved for the election, or germany, or itally, or england, or any other gentile nation. he said the nation of Isreal. Until you see this, and realise Gods election of the nation of isreal had nothing to do with who is saved or not saved. you will never see it.

I don't. God's true elect were always the people who had a heart after God from the beginning of time. Therefore, in my own understanding, Israel was elected and can be called the elect in the sense that God chose them to fulfill His plans, but not is same sense of the eternal elect. So in one sense ancient Israel are elected, and in another sense are not the elect.

in once sense your right. Only those born again of the spirit of God through faith in Christ from the beginning of time are chosen to spend eternity with christ.

on the other hand the election of the nation of Israel never had a thing to do with this. It was not even part of the covenant which dealt with this people group. The part of the covenant which deals with the saved elect is "in you shall all the nations of the world be blessed (in your seed) thats all. We were not promised land, We were not given a special place in Gods heart as a chosen people here on earth. We were not given anything through the covenant between God and abraham through Isaac. why you want to make it so is beyond me.

I wonder if just our brains think differently here and we are not connecting mentally. Romans 11 has been the subject all along I thought. All Paul uses the OT to answer the question in the present as He often did.

in romans 11

1. the people in the past were not spoken of by paul as being cut off so we gentiles could be grafted in
2. the people in the past were not spoken of by paul as being blinded in part so we could see
3. the people in the past were not spoken of by paul to be hated for the gospel, but loved for the election
4. The people in the past were not spoken of by Paul to be saved when the time of the gentil is fulfilled.

Paul used a past thing to prove a present and future fact. That there will always be a remnant of the nation of Israel kept alive, so God can keep his promise to Abraham (the fathers) even when they are in unbelief and sin so Gods promise will be fulfilled when their blindness is removed and as Pauls said ALL ISRAEL (not spiritual Israel, but those who belong to the physical nation of Israel) WILL BE SAVED. Just like God said in his law to moses in lev 26.

what other nation group has been given this promise? Let alone, what other nation group who has been totally destroyed by a foreign army, and their land completely taken over still exists on earth today? Where are the canaanites, the hitites, the jebusites, the edomites, etc etc?? Why does Isreal still exist as a people group, but non of these others do?

Not intentionally, I'm really trying to understand what you are saying

Well I just said being a jew never guaranteed anyone an eternity with Christ. and you said I answered my own question. this makes no sense.

so that how you interpret the "fullness of the gentiles", the fall of the gentiles? if so, then where else in scripture does it say this?

lol, It could be a few things, The fall of the gentile church (before man of sin is revealed, there will be a falling away) or the end of the roman empire or 4th beast kingdom of Daniel.

I happen to think they are both related. at the same time, It does not matter what it is, what matters is if it has happened yet. And there is no sign it has, And then what will happen when this occures? what did paul say would happen?

Yes, I see the land promise, old Israel as a type and shadow of new heaven and earth.

thats fine. and I can see this. but that is not the issue, the issue as long as this earth is here, and as long as the physicla land of canaan is still present, the covenant still stands, which means it stands even till this day. why is Isreal not occupying her land in peace? because they are still in sin, and still suffering the punishments of lev 26

So you are saying this a future event? what will that look like, How does a whole nation repent?

your joking right? how does a nation repent? are you trying to mock me or something?

have you ever read the OT prophesys concerning the dry bones. or other prophesies where God uses sever tribulation against these people which causes them to look to God for protection, and THIS IS when God opens their eyes. and then they are restored, and the gentile nations who persecuted and treated them bad when they had custody because of their sin are punished?

And after they repent, is that 1000 reign of Christ on earth?

different topic. lets get to the question of the nation of isreal being elect even though they are own enemy first.

I don't ignore it, I place it in the era what it was meant, the time of the Babylon captivity the land enjoyed it's sabbaths, because Israel did not keep the sabbaths. The land had rest. While while they were in the 70 years of Babylon captivity, and God did not cast them away, He brought them back to build the 2nd temple etc. etc.

1. Not all returned
2. They did not have a king, they were still under gentile dominion
3. They did not repent of their sin
4. They did not turn back to God but still played the harlot.
etc etc.

Daniel prayed for his peoples repentance, Gabriel said it would be 70 weeks. this it was not fulfilled as you saw it. not to mention. Lev 26 does not say how many times it owuld happen. it could happen a hundred times if the earth was here for millions of years.

LoL, There is a new covenant, because the old one failed in what it was supposed to accomplish. Well, at least that's my understanding of it. I am sure I need more study on it.

the old failed to save us, it never was intended to save us.

I am talking about the abrahamic, not mosaic covenant. The mosaic covenant is still binding, it did not fail. that is what Paul is trying to say.

I have to go, I can't respond to all your comments, sorry...and I won't be able to respond for awhile. My step son is having open heart surgery tomorrow, He's only nineteen. Please pray for him, and for his salvation too. thanks

you got it. that is more important than what we are discussing by a hundred fold.

 

[Tehillim]

Hello, I am new to this forum. I would like to say thank you to all the individuals here who are standing up for the truth of the Word concerning the Jewish people. It is this stand that will in the end show the love of Hashem to unsaved Jews by Christian non-Jews. The love that will stir unsaved Jews to Jealousy.

Anything other than the truth of the Word concerning the Jewish people is contrary to the plan of G-d as it is to the Jew first and also the Gentile for the sake of the world. Theology stating that the Jews have been replaced by the church is anti-semitic and is undoubtly replacement theology. This replacement theology in no way shows the love of Jesus (Yeshua) to Jews. In fact, it is a major factor in keeping unsaved Jews from knowing Jesus. Replacement theology was major factor in the persecution of Jews throughout the history of the Jewish diasporia and a cause of the Holocaust. Hitler used this ideology to push is case against the Jews.

My dear brother and sisters the goal is not heaven. The goal is the return of our beloved Messiah Jesus (Yeshua) and so we need to do everything we can to hasten his return, so that His kingdom can be established here on earth.

Jesus said, "For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' " "You" here are the Jews. Without Jews welcoming Jesus back He is not going to return. Jesus does not lie. This replacement theology will not help in Jesus (Yeshua) return, in fact it hinders it.

The enemy will do everything in His power to stop the promises of God in being fulfilled and replacement theology his subtle but deadly tool to stop it. Replacement theology looks good on the surface, that is the church replacing Israel. "Yuppy, We are the new Israel!" This kind of thinking is the deception of the enemy as he is the father of all lies. It is the temptation to be the new chosen people, but it is a false chosen as God wants us to be in the roles of what he created to be.

As I write this the nations around the world are making their plans against Israel, plans that began with a lie from the enemy, but Hashem will turn what will be used for evil into good to Glory His name and to the fulfullment of His promises in the fullest. In the end, all Israel will be saved. Romans 11:26