Is keeping the Commandments and Laws of God Needed for Eternal Life?

[CRUCIFIEDWITHCHRIST]

Rom.7
[19] For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Paul wants to do good. He wants to keep the laws of God...but he does not always keep them. (For the good that I would I do not. But the sins that he does not want to do...sometimes he does them. (but the evil which I would not, that I do.)

[20] Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

For the times that Paul does those things he does not want to do (Now if I do that I would not). It is not because he wants to do them (it is no more I that do it), but is is the sin within him...the constant temptation. (but sin that dwelleth in me.)

[21] I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Paul is always reminded of God's laws whenever he tries to do good (I find then a law, that, when I would do good,), but God's laws reminds him of sin (evil is present with me.) The evil is made known by God's laws.

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."

Let's read what Paul said about keeping his body under control....

1 Cor.9
[27] But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Do you believe Paul knew what would happen if he did NOT keep his body under subjection?

Now if Paul had to keep his body under control...imagine what we have to go through. Paul KNEW people that knew Jesus. We have faith.

.

Brother Paul in romans 7 is talking in first person to make a point and in romans 7 it is the past . Was paul a righteousness man or evil man?? He is a righteousness man . Then why did he call him self wretched ?He is talking about the past .and he even says who shall save me from this ( like he needs this to happen still). He was already saved from the sin that dwellth in him as he had stated. In the next chapter he talks about walking in the spirit .. and what happens when one walks in the spirit they do not fulfill the lust of the flesh. If paul was still living with sin in him he would be walking after the flesh. Romans 7 is paul in the past again i say he says who shall save me .. he was making a point. He was a righteous man not

If this is the end result of salvation then we would always sin. 1 john 3:9 is the result of a man being born again. He cannot sin. Paul also said he does not frustrate the grace of God if he was still sinning then he would be frustrating the Grace of the lord

 

[cfultz3]

You read never picking up the Author's intent. Abraham threw his wife under the bus twice TO SAVE HIS OWN NECK! I cannot do that. David committed PREMEDITATED MURDER AFTER KNOWING THE LORD!

Jacob's mother LIED and manipulated to secure the birthright for her younger son. Isaiah had by today's standards had premarital sex AND a child out of wedlock!


Do you all actually pay attention and take to heart the words in the bible? Moses killed a man and blatantly denied to give God the glory when the pride of self caused him to strike the rock! For Christ sakes Aaron helped to make the false image of a calf that many others died from!


These people are NO DIFFERENT FROM US!

I gave you an answer which was based on the whole chapter. I perhaps did not take that verse out of context from the rest to conlcude that since all things are lawful then it must be that all shall be saved, seeing that there is no law to be judged by. But, I know from other Scripture that they who beleive shall not die. The wrath of God is upon the children of the rebellion. I also know that the Spirit will never tell me to walk contrary to God's will and if I do then I have Hebrews 3 and 4 to tell me otherwise. So, I am sorry that I cannot come to the same conclusion of Universal Salvation. I hope and pray the Spirit speaks that Truth to you so that you can go and save as many as possible from the second death which awaits all those children of the rebellion.

IF ALL IS SAVED THEN THE FAITH IN CHIRST IS NULLIFIED.

 

[angelofmercy]

I gave you an answer which was based on the whole chapter. I perhaps did not take that verse out of context from the rest to conlcude that since all things are lawful then it must be that all shall be saved, seeing that there is no law to be judged by. But, I know from other Scripture that they who beleive shall not die. The wrath of God is upon the children of the rebellion. I also know that the Spirit will never tell me to walk contrary to God's will and if I do then I have Hebrews 3 and 4 to tell me otherwise. So, I am sorry that I cannot come to the same conclusion of Universal Salvation. I hope and pray the Spirit speaks that Truth to you so that you can go and save as many as possible from the second death which awaits all those children of the rebellion.

IF ALL IS SAVED THEN THE FAITH IN CHIRST IS NULLIFIED.

But if all is not saved, then Christ has failed His mission!

(shaking my head with sadness) Christ died while WE were ENEMIES! HE LOVES US SO! And I will as well, lay my life down for my enemies because I love them so.

I ask you something. In searching out the faith of Christ, were not you too found to be a sinner?

 

[cfultz3]

angelofmercy,

But if all is not saved, then Christ has failed His mission! -- I am sure Satan is jumping for joy now that even he will be reconciled. Wonder why he even tries to lure people away from God if his works are futile?

(shaking my head with sadness) -- Don't be sad. In your believe I will be saved anyway. So, may I ask you why even bother proclaiming your gospel when, all in all, we all will be saved from that everlasting destruction from the presense of the Lord sentencing spoken about in the Great White Throne Judgment?

Christ died while WE were ENEMIES! HE LOVES US SO! And I will as well, lay my life down for my enemies because I love them so. -- but why lay your life down AS WELL, if the children of Satan will make it to God's Kindgom also? Would not that death have been a wasted sacrifice, even for Jesus?

I ask you something. In searching out the faith of Christ, were not you too found to be a sinner?
- Yes. But I also found out that I must have faith in the Christ to obtain the redemption from the righteous judgment of death for those not under the house of faith, but under the Law. I have also learned that it is God's servants who will be rewarded while those of the rebellion will have nothing to look forward to except that which they desire: separation from God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Brother Paul in romans 7 is talking in first person to make a point and in romans 7 it is the past . Was paul a righteousness man or evil man?? He is a righteousness man . Then why did he call him self wretched ?He is talking about the past .and he even says who shall save me from this ( like he needs this to happen still). He was already saved from the sin that dwellth in him as he had stated. In the next chapter he talks about walking in the spirit .. and what happens when one walks in the spirit they do not fulfill the lust of the flesh. If paul was still living with sin in him he would be walking after the flesh. Romans 7 is paul in the past again i say he says who shall save me .. he was making a point. He was a righteous man not

If this is the end result of salvation then we would always sin. 1 john 3:9 is the result of a man being born again. He cannot sin. Paul also said he does not frustrate the grace of God if he was still sinning then he would be frustrating the Grace of the lord

Paul is not talking about his past, where do people get this?

I find two natures waring inside of me.

this is present tense. He did not have the nature of God warring in him before he was saved, thus there would not be two natures.

That I want to do, Again present tense, id did not say that I wanted to do (past)

He said with his flesh he serves sin, and with spirit he serves God, again he did not have spirit before he was saved, thus could not be talking baout past.

people twist things because it opposes their belief system, lets not interpret scripture to match our belief, but make scripture cause our belief.

 

[Eccl12and13]

Brother Paul in romans 7 is talking in first person to make a point and in romans 7 it is the past . Was paul a righteousness man or evil man?? He is a righteousness man . Then why did he call him self wretched ?He is talking about the past .and he even says who shall save me from this ( like he needs this to happen still). He was already saved from the sin that dwellth in him as he had stated. In the next chapter he talks about walking in the spirit .. and what happens when one walks in the spirit they do not fulfill the lust of the flesh. If paul was still living with sin in him he would be walking after the flesh. Romans 7 is paul in the past again i say he says who shall save me .. he was making a point. He was a righteous man not

Rom.7
[23] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

At what point did Paul completely stop warring with flesh? At what point did Paul live a PERFECT, SINLESS life until his death? At what point did Satan stop tempting Paul?

All I am saying is that Paul sinned. Even AFTER coming into the knowledge of God's laws and commandments. We know this because of the verses in Rom.7. Let's consider......


Rom.7
[7] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Above we know where Paul received the knowledge to understand that to covet was to sin. So BEFORE reading God's laws, Paul was unaware that coveting was a sin. Let's continue......

[9] For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Now which man was alive before coming into the knowledge of God's laws? Paul's old self. The party Paul. The torture Christians Paul. Let's continue....

[10] And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Now what happened when Paul read and understood God's laws? Sin was revealed to him. Now he knew that something had to change. Something had to happen! And what was that change? The dying of Paul's old self. The party Paul and the Paul that used to torture Christians had to die. And what did Paul say of God's commandments? Paul tells us they will give LIFE!

So now...after reading and knowing what sin is.....did Paul stop sinning the moment he read and understood? Let's read to find out....

[15] For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Now how did Paul know the things that he hated, but did, was wrong? He knew them because he read God's laws. So even AFTER reading and understanding God's laws....Paul yet struggled with keeping them.

Whether it was past, present, first person or something else....when Paul received the knowledge of what sin was he still, at times, did things that he knew he should not have done. He knew the things he did were wrong because he read God's laws.

My question to you is this, "At what point, according to you, did Paul become saved?"

Was it AFTER he read and understood God's laws?

Was it AFTER he taught others?

Was it AFTER he was baptized?

Was it AFTER he had faith in the words he read?



When was Paul saved and committed his LAST sin?


Because.....as you claim......

"1 john 3:9 is the result of a man being born again. He cannot sin.

So again....when did this occur for Paul? When was it IMPOSSIBLE for Paul to sin ever again?




.

 

[angelofmercy]

angelofmercy,

But if all is not saved, then Christ has failed His mission! -- I am sure Satan is jumping for joy now that even he will be reconciled. Wonder why he even tries to lure people away from God if his works are futile?

(shaking my head with sadness) -- Don't be sad. In your believe I will be saved anyway. So, may I ask you why even bother proclaiming your gospel when, all in all, we all will be saved from that everlasting destruction from the presense of the Lord sentencing spoken about in the Great White Throne Judgment?

Christ died while WE were ENEMIES! HE LOVES US SO! And I will as well, lay my life down for my enemies because I love them so. -- but why lay your life down AS WELL, if the children of Satan will make it to God's Kindgom also? Would not that death have been a wasted sacrifice, even for Jesus?

I ask you something. In searching out the faith of Christ, were not you too found to be a sinner?
- Yes. But I also found out that I must have faith in the Christ to obtain the redemption from the righteous judgment of death for those not under the house of faith, but under the Law. I have also learned that it is God's servants who will be rewarded while those of the rebellion will have nothing to look forward to except that which they desire: separation from God.

Whatever you deem satan to be, what was he created to do?

I am not sad about your salvation. I pity you all a you bite and devour one another in selfish pride.

Again judgement is for the purpose of CORRECTION not destruction. Paul turned a man over to satan and destruction of the flesh IN ORDER TO LEARN NOT TO BLASPHEME!

And if some did not believe on Him as you or I do, He still CANNOT DENY HIMSELF!

The whole world may deny my existence but I KNOW I LIVE.

 

[JaumeJ]

Again judgement is for the purpose of CORRECTION not destruction.

Christ, Yeshua, died for all mankind's sins, however all mankind is not saved. Each person must choose salvation and truly desire it. Many choose evil. Look about yourself and tell me there is no need for suffering and pain to be removed. This teaching that all will be in heaven is completely false, and contradicts much Holy Scripture. Teaching this is walking on the sacrifice of Yeshua. It would be nice if all souls were saved, but this is simply not going to happen. As for judgment, final that is, the tares will be removed from the wheat and burned. Where did you get the idea that no one will be separated from Yahweh, God? It is not taught anywhere in His Word, quite the contrary.
Teaching what you are purporting in this thread, the Bible may as well be destroyed forever, since you believe our Lord, Jesus, died for nothing at all.

 

[angelofmercy]

Again judgement is for the purpose of CORRECTION not destruction.

Christ, Yeshua, died for all mankind's sins, however all mankind is not saved. Each person must choose salvation and truly desire it. Many choose evil. Look about yourself and tell me there is no need for suffering and pain to be removed. This teaching that all will be in heaven is completely false, and contradicts much Holy Scripture. Teaching this is walking on the sacrifice of Yeshua. It would be nice if all souls were saved, but this is simply not going to happen. As for judgment, final that is, the tares will be removed from the wheat and burned. Where did you get the idea that no one will be separated from Yahweh, God? It is not taught anywhere in His Word, quite the contrary.
Teaching what you are purporting in this thread, the Bible may as well be destroyed forever, since you believe our Lord, Jesus, died for nothing at all.

Listen to yourself, please! IT IS GOD THAT BLINDS THE EYES OF THOSE WHO BELIEVE NOT!!!

Will God purposely blind them just to destroy them?

I say Jesus WILL accomplish what He set out to do and you say within yourself that He will not!

You only love death, and you love to tell that to your neighbor!

What seperates you from a non believer other than BELIEF!? Again even if some, most, or all do not believe, HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF as all was given to Him, and ALL will be drawn to Him; in which WHOMEVER (again ALL) comes to Him in NO WISE SHALL BE CAST OUT!

Now if all were given to Him and NO MAN can take anything out of His hand, why then hold on to childish notions that someone can REMOVE THEMSELVES!?

Did He not purchase the WHOLE FIELD (world)? You are NOT your own!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Listen to yourself, please! IT IS GOD THAT BLINDS THE EYES OF THOSE WHO BELIEVE NOT!!!

Will God purposely blind them just to destroy them?

I say Jesus WILL accomplish what He set out to do and you say within yourself that He will not!

You only love death, and you love to tell that to your neighbor!

What seperates you from a non believer other than BELIEF!? Again even if some, most, or all do not believe, HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF as all was given to Him, and ALL will be drawn to Him; in which WHOMEVER (again ALL) comes to Him in NO WISE SHALL BE CAST OUT!

Now if all were given to Him and NO MAN can take anything out of His hand, why then hold on to childish notions that someone can REMOVE THEMSELVES!?

Did He not purchase the WHOLE FIELD (world)? You are NOT your own!

God is not going to force someone to believe in him. But he WILL NOT save someone who rejects his gift. If you think otherwise, you are sorely mistaken.

God offers his gift to all, but he will not force you to take it, rejecting his gift may seem ok for now, But in eternity it will lead to eternal death.

Your right, God can not deny himself. He promised salvation to all who trust him, Giving it to someone who does not do what he said is required, would be denying himself. why? He lied, and it is not faith that saves us, but he will save everyone anyway, thus he is a liar.

 

[angelofmercy]

God is not going to force someone to believe in him. But he WILL NOT save someone who rejects his gift. If you think otherwise, you are sorely mistaken.

God offers his gift to all, but he will not force you to take it, rejecting his gift may seem ok for now, But in eternity it will lead to eternal death.

Your right, God can not deny himself. He promised salvation to all who trust him, Giving it to someone who does not do what he said is required, would be denying himself. why? He lied, and it is not faith that saves us, but he will save everyone anyway, thus he is a liar.

Kill as many as you want my friend. I will not rob God. How can a man reject what is free? Can a man reject the sun or the rain?

And always remember, HE GAVE IT TO YOU, an enemy! Or did you come to Christ of your own "free" will?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Kill as many as you want my friend. I will not rob God.

I am not killing anyone, they are killing themselves.

How can a man reject what is free?

You telling me you have never turned down a free anything? That even if you could not stand the food being offered you, you would take it anyway? Men reject things freely offered to them all the time.

Can a man reject the sun or the rain?

The sun and moon are there whether we want it or not. Salvation is not this way, it is only offered to those who want it.

And always remember, HE GAVE IT TO YOU, an enemy! Or did you come to Christ of your own "free" will?

he offered it to me, Yes while I was his enemy, because he loved me in spite of myself, I recieved it, not based on what i did, but based on what he did, Yes I came to him of my own free will, does God deny free will? Now If I did not recieve it of free will, but chose to reject his offer. I will not be saved. Nor will you.

 

[hermanodaniel]

Consider this.....when was it that God knew for a fact that Abraham believed in Him? Was it when Abraham gathered his son to go to the mountain? Was it on the way up the mountain? Was it when he prepared the alter?

At what point did God know for certain that Abraham believed Him? When was Abraham's faith confirmed?

Simple question.

.

All of them combined what's your point?

 

[angelofmercy]

I am not killing anyone, they are killing themselves.



You telling me you have never turned down a free anything? That even if you could not stand the food being offered you, you would take it anyway? Men reject things freely offered to them all the time.



The sun and moon are there whether we want it or not. Salvation is not this way, it is only offered to those who want it.



he offered it to me, Yes while I was his enemy, because he loved me in spite of myself, I recieved it, not based on what i did, but based on what he did, Yes I came to him of my own free will, does God deny free will? Now If I did not recieve it of free will, but chose to reject his offer. I will not be saved. Nor will you.

1 John 3:14-16

14*We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

15*Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

16*Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.


You would put MANY of your brothers to death.

Do not think carnally. The sun and the rain are for ALL, without prejudice on that no man can reject. Salvation is the same.

Now if the bible states that NO MAN can come to Jesus UNLESS the Father brings him, how is it that you've managed to do so by YOUR OWN VOLITION???

Again I or you may plant. You or I may water.... But just like a flower growing, IT IS GOD THAT GIVES THE INCREASE!

 

[hermanodaniel]

Again I ask....

So it is belief in Jesus that is needed for salvation? Is that all that is needed? Does not Satan believe that there is a Jesus? And does he not know personally that He is the Son of God? And how about the following verse....?

James 2
[19] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

God's word tells us that even the demons believe there is a God and a Son of God.


Will their belief save them?


Will their faith save them?


.

Well again those who believe will genuinely produces works in love BUT NOT AFTER THE LETTER OF THE LAW WHICH APPLIES TO THE FLESH. The Body of sins is to be cut off or counted to be dead. Again obedience is of the spirit which means the emphasis is Christ's finish work. Please read my prior post. (It's a bit length but please read it)

Blessings

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1 John 3:14-16

14*We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

15*Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

16*Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.


You would put MANY of your brothers to death.

How would I do this? If they are saved, they are saved. Nothing can take that away from them.

Do not think carnally. The sun and the rain are for ALL, without prejudice on that no man can reject. Salvation is the same.

Then th ebible lied when it said many will go into eternal darkness. Thanks But I will believe the bible. as for you, you scare me. How many people will not ocme to christ because you say they don't have to they will be saved anyway?

Now if the bible states that NO MAN can come to Jesus UNLESS the Father brings him, how is it that you've managed to do so by YOUR OWN VOLITION???

Again I or you may plant. You or I may water.... But just like a flower growing, IT IS GOD THAT GIVES THE INCREASE!

why bother planting if everyone is going to be saved anyway, what you say makes no sense, and can not be found in scripture.

We are saved BY FAITH. If we do not have faith, then we will not be saved, plain and simple. God is not going to give someone something they do not want, If you do not want to do it Gods way, then it is you who killed yourself. God offered, you rejected, end of story.

 

[angelofmercy]

All of them combined what's your point?

The funny part is for all that he asked, doesn't God know the end from the beginning?

Just as He knew Jeremiah before the womb, He knew us all. So why is the bible written in this type of way?

1 Corinthians 10:11-12

11*Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12*Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

 

[angelofmercy]

How would I do this? If they are saved, they are saved. Nothing can take that away from them.



Then th ebible lied when it said many will go into eternal darkness. Thanks But I will believe the bible. as for you, you scare me. How many people will not ocme to christ because you say they don't have to they will be saved anyway?





why bother planting if everyone is going to be saved anyway, what you say makes no sense, and can not be found in scripture.

We are saved BY FAITH. If we do not have faith, then we will not be saved, plain and simple. God is not going to give someone something they do not want, If you do not want to do it Gods way, then it is you who killed yourself. God offered, you rejected, end of story.

Whether YOU understand it or not, does not all have faith???

I will never muzzle an oz while he treads the corn.

You have me confused. Everyone will be saved, but each in his own order.

If you understand how the kinsman redeemer and jubilee works, those that are redeemed (first fruits of the Spirit) can claim their possession NOW! Those that are of jubilee are dead in tresspasses and cannot buy their possessions back. They will be returned unto them but they will suffer loss (hurt by the second death)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Whether YOU understand it or not, does not all have faith???

No, If all had faith, why did james say faith without works is dead? Do you not understand what dead means, it means has no life, this it is no faith at all.

And how can people have faith in Christ if they do not even take what he is offering them? They don;t take it, because they DO NOT HAVE FAITH

I will never muzzle an oz while he treads the corn.

You have me confused. Everyone will be saved, but each in his own order.

Then you reject scripture and the word of God, and call God a liar.

If you understand how the kinsman redeemer and jubilee works, those that are redeemed (first fruits of the Spirit) can claim their possession NOW! Those that are of jubilee are dead in tresspasses and cannot buy their possessions back. They will be returned unto them but they will suffer loss (hurt by the second death)

1st off. All men are born dead to God in adam, thus the stuff you claim they posses has never been theirs in the first place.
2nd, Redemption is paid, but you do not have to accept the payment, you can accept to still suffer your own fate, Many slaves had their freedom given to them, but refused to take it because it was all they knew, They thought they had it good, and remained slaves.

We are slaves to sin, We have been offered freedom, But many reject this offer and wish to remain slaves, because we think we have it good, so we do not take the one thing which could make us free.

 

[angelofmercy]

No, If all had faith, why did james say faith without works is dead? Do you not understand what dead means, it means has no life, this it is no faith at all.

And how can people have faith in Christ if they do not even take what he is offering them? They don;t take it, because they DO NOT HAVE FAITH





Then you reject scripture and the word of God, and call God a liar.



1st off. All men are born dead to God in adam, thus the stuff you claim they posses has never been theirs in the first place.
2nd, Redemption is paid, but you do not have to accept the payment, you can accept to still suffer your own fate, Many slaves had their freedom given to them, but refused to take it because it was all they knew, They thought they had it good, and remained slaves.y

We are slaves to sin, We have been offered freedom, But many reject this offer and wish to remain slaves, because we think we have it good, so we do not take the one thing which could make us free.

Once again open mouth, insert foot!

Romans 12:3-4

3*For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

4*For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

EVERYMAN IS DEALT A MEASURE OF FAITH BY GOD! Is this a lie???


Until you can reconcile with this, what's the point?


Faith without works (good OR evil) is indeed dead. And everyman is judged according to his work!