Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

[Laodicea]

That was Jonah's opinion. If three days can feel like forever, what will forever feel like?

Are you saying that the Bible is just opinions?


Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelation 20:10
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The word for ever in these verses means an age it does not mean eternal, a word study of this word will show that.
Matthew 28:20
(20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Matthew 28:20 (NKJV)
20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

The word world is translated from the same word as for ever in Revelation and means an age. This world is not eternal it will end as Jesus said so the word for ever does not mean eternal.

 

[Grandpa]

ALTER2EGO -to- GRANDPA:
The forum is waiting for you to present examples of "twisted scripture" in the New World Translation. The individual using the screen name psychomom tried to do it with Revelation 1:1 and failed when it became evident that the NWT was no different from the other three translations he/she presented. Until you can prove what you are saying, I will dismiss your comments as nothing more than your personal opinions.

BTW: I find it interesting that so many people are showing up in the thread complaining about the New World Translation but said nothing when I quoted other Bible versions that were saying the same thing. Never mind that the topic of this thread is about Hellfire and Trinity aka traditions of men and is not about the New World Translation.

Well you presented a teaching that there is no hell, or lake of fire.
When presented with the truth of the bible you pull out your own version and say the verses given are only symbolic and don't mean what they plainly say.

I say God's word means what it plainly says as well as its symbolic meaning. It is both, simultaneously.

Just for your information I don't trust any english bibles aside from the KJV. That is my personal preference. I don't have direct evidence of any of the other versions being corrupt except for the verse that you posted from the NWT, and your subsequent interpretation following that verse.

 

[Grandpa]

ALTER2EGO -to- GRANDPA:
When a person applies literal meaning to symbolic language, we end up with traditions of men that are passed off as Bible teachings.




Are you sure you want to stand by the portion of your text that I bolded above? Are you saying the King James Version doesn't have fabrications aka language that was added in? I'm talking language in the KJV that does not appear in the original writings of the Judeo-Christian Bible.

I suppose the same can be said for applying symbolic meaning to literal language. It also can end up with traditions of men.

As far as the KJV goes I would say it is the most accurate english bible on the planet. As far as added language is concerned I'm sure there is some due to the differences in languages and interpretations of words. But like I said earlier, it is one of the oldest english bibles and therefore does not contain much of the wrong, added language that has recently come upon God's Word.

 

[Abiding]

Just wondering...did the New World Translation remove:

the word Lord from these verses?

Matthew 13:51, Mark 9:24, Mark 11:10, Luke 9:57, Luke 23:42, Acts 7:30, Romans 1:3, Romans 6:11, 1 Corinthians 10:28, 1 Corinthians 15:47, 2 Corinthians 4:10, Galatians 6:17, Ephesians 3:14, Colossians 1:2, 1 Timothy 1:1, 1 Timothy 5:21, 2 Timothy 4:1, 2 John 1:3

And the word Jesus from these verses?:

Matthew 8:29, Matthew 16:20, Romans 1:3, Romans 15:8, 1 Corinthians 16:22, 2 Corinthians 4:6, 2 Corinthians 5:18, Galatians 6:15, Ephesians 3:9, Ephesians 3:14, Colossians 1:2, Colossians 1:28, 2 Timothy 4:22, 1 Peter 5:10, 1 Peter 5:14

And the word hell from these verse?:

Matthew 11:23, Matthew 16:18, Luke 10:15, Acts 2:31, Revelation 1:18, Revelation 6:8, Revelation 20:13, Revelation 20:14

And the word Christ from these verses?:

Luke 4:41, John 4:42, John 6:69, Acts 2:30, Acts 15:11, Acts 16:31, Acts 20:21, Romans 1:3, Romans 1:16, Romans 14:10, 1 Corinthians 5:4, 1 Corinthians 9:1, 1 Corinthians 16:22, 1 Corinthians 16:23, 2 Corinthians 11:31, Galatians 3:17, Galatians 4:7, Galatians 6:15, Ephesians 3:9, Ephesians 3:14, Philippians 4:13, 1 Thessalonians 2:19, 1 Thessalonians 3:11, 1 Thessalonians 3:13, 2 Thessalonians 1:8, 1 Timothy 2:7, 2 Timothy 4:22, Hebrews 3:1, 1 John 1:7, 1 John 4:3, Revelation 1:9, Revelation 12:17

And simply removed these verses?:

Matthew 17:21, Matthew 18:11, Matthew 23:14, Mark 7:16, Mark 9:44, Mark 9:46, Mark 11:26, Mark 15:28, Luke 17:36, Luke 23:17, John 5:4, Acts 8:37, Acts 15:34, Acts 24:7, Acts 28:29, Romans 16:24

 

[Grandpa]

ALTER2EGO -to- GRANDPA:
The angel was itself the sign you say? Below is Revelation 1:1 from the King James Version and two other Bibles--none of which are the New World Translation. Please explain to this forum where that verse says the angel itself was the sign.

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and SIGNIFIED IT by his angel unto his servant John:" (Revelation 1:1 -- KJV)


Below is the same scripture from the Aramaic Bible in Plain English.

"The Revelation of Yeshua The Messiah, which God gave to him, to show his Servants what had been given to soon occur, and HE SYMBOLIZED IT when he sent by his Angel to his Servant Yohannan," (Revelation 1:1 -- ABPE)


Below is the same scripture from the American Standard Version.

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and SIGNIFIED IT by his angel unto his servant John;" (Revelation 1:1 -- ASV)

~***~​

Yeah, its plain english. The Revelation of Jesus Christ is the subject. It was given to John. The Angel that was sent backed all of it up. The Angel was the sign to John that it was from God. The very next verse further explains that the Angel was not just a sign but also able to bare record of all the things John saw. In other words, the angel had already seen these things and knew what they were. They are a literal record of the spiritual world. You know, the place where angels are from. Heaven, the kingdom of God. An Actual Place.

 

[Bea22]

sémainó: to give a sign​

Original Word: σημαίνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: sémainó
Phonetic Spelling: (say-mah'-ee-no)
Short Definition: I signify, indicate
Definition: I signify, indicate, give a sign, make known.

Word Origin
from séma (a sign, mark)
Definition
to give a sign
NASB Translation
communicated (1), indicate (3), signifying (2).

​

 

[jimmydiggs]

Jesus is Jehovah.

 

[Abiding]

Jesus is Jehovah.

What Jimmy? did you break down and just have to say
just one thing in this thread that had merit?

 

[Alter2Ego]

It may be easier to see if I approach the reasonableness from outside Scripture: Many early Greek and Jewish philosophers argued that the very nature of the human spirit would cause it to exist forever in a body. Logically, the body needs somewhere to go. The argument is 1. God is eternal, and He created us to share His love. If we (spirits) die, His love will have no object of the type He longed for enough to create. 2. God created spirits that desire a body, so if the spirit is to live forever, and wants to appreciate God's love forever, it must be fulfilled in its nature, and thus must have a body forever. Now, I agree, that does not prove that those who reject God's love need a body, so point 3: For God to just "erase" those people who die in sin does not seem how He does anything else (we see evil intermixed with good everywhere). The conclusion is God is eternal and loving, so we must have been created to eternally receive God's love, and it is unlike God to erase something. Now that does not prove anything, since it's not Scripture. But it does prove that what Scripture is telling us is not unreasonable.

ALTER2EGO -to- KENISYES:[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]But we're not dealing with Greek paganism and Jewish philosophies aka personal opinions aka traditions of men, now are we? We, as Christians, don't have to fumble around in the dark trying to figure anything out, unlike Greek and Jewish philosophers who ignored the scriptures and presented their personal speculations instead. Our Creator provided us with his guidelines: his inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. So if a certain doctrine is not in the Bible, we must accept that it is nothing more than traditions of men; don't you think?[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[Alter2Ego]

[FONT=&quot]

The argument is 1. God is eternal, and He created us to share His love. If we (spirits) die, His love will have no object of the type He longed for enough to create. 2. God created spirits that desire a body, so if the spirit is to live forever, and wants to appreciate God's love forever, it must be fulfilled in its nature, and thus must have a body forever. Now, I agree, that does not prove that those who reject God's love need a body, so point 3: For God to just "erase" those people who die in sin does not seem how He does anything else (we see evil intermixed with good everywhere).

[/FONT]ALTER2EGO -to- KENISYES:
A person screaming in agony--burning in flames for all eternity--that is your idea of "appreciating God's love forever"? Surely you jest.

BTW: Please present the scripture where it says one's spirit is to live forever. I don't recall coming across that particular scriptural text.[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

 

[cfultz3]

Why don't everyone go back to the beginning Oracles of God to find truth as concerning the Trinity or if there is a literal Hellfire. Perhaps there you would see God the Father, God the Word, and God the Spirit in creation. And perhaps, God's anger as being the fiery flame which burns down even to the floor of Hades.

 

[jimmydiggs]

What Jimmy? did you break down and just have to say
just one thing in this thread that had merit?

Nah, I see what's happening.

She's going on the attack trying to make us play defense. I say we do defense and offense.

Even in the New World Translation, you can't avoid the fact that it describes Christ with eternal terms.

From the NWT:
Psalm 102:24-27

24 I proceeded to say: “O my God,
Do not take me off at the half of my days;
Your years are throughout all generations.

25 Long ago you laid the foundations of the earth itself,
And the heavens are the work of your hands.

26 They themselves will perish, but you yourself will keep standing;
And just like a garment they will all of them wear out.
Just like clothing you will replace them, and they will finish their turn.

27 But you are the same, and your own years will not be completed.

28 The sons of your servants will continue residing;
And before you their own offspring will be firmly established.”


Hebrews 1:7-12

7Also, with reference to the angels he says: “And he makes his angels spirits, and his public servants a flame of fire.”8But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.9You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with [the] oil of exultation more than your partners.”10And: “You at [the] beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are [the] works of your hands.11They themselves will perish, but you yourself are to remain continually; and just like an outer garment they will all grow old,12and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as an outer garment; and they will be changed, but you are the same, and your years will never run out.”

Again... look...


Psalm 102:24
I proceeded to say: “O my God,


... then.. the description of God...

...Long ago you laid the foundations of the earth itself (verse 27)

So, Psalm 102 says GOD laid the foundations of the earth.



Herews 1:8 says..

But with reference to the Son:

...then the description of the Son...

You at [the] beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are [the] works of your hands.

God laid the foundations of the earth, Hebrews 1 says Jesus laid the foundations of the earth, thus Hebrews 1 in the NWT testifies that Jesus is Jehovah. That Jesus is God.

Psalm 102:26 says..
They themselves will perish, but you yourself will keep standing

Hebrews 1

They themselves will perish, but you yourself are to remain continually; and just like an outer garment they will all grow old,12and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as an outer garment; and they will be changed, but you are the same, and your years will never run out.”


Hebrews 1 when it refers to Christ, is quoting Psalm 102 which is referring to GOD.

My source for the NWT is straight from the horses mouth:

Online Bible ? Read or Download Free: MP3, AAC, PDF, EPUB, Audio <--- click

Online Bible ? Read or Download Free: MP3, AAC, PDF, EPUB, Audio​

I'll play your game.

Game over.

JW's made an oopsie when they tried to scrub the NWT clean.

 

[Abiding]

and on their feild to boot!

 

[Alter2Ego]

The conclusion is God is eternal and loving, so we must have been created to eternally receive God's love, and it is unlike God to erase something. Now that does not prove anything, since it's not Scripture. But it does prove that what Scripture is telling us is not unreasonable.

ALTER2EGO -to- KENISYES:
I agree with your statement that God is eternal and loving. Those sentiments are supported by the scriptures.


GOD IS ETERNAL:
"Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." (Psalms 90:2 -- King James Version)



GOD IS THE EPITOME OF LOVE:
"He that does not love has not come to know God, because GOD IS LOVE." (1 John 4:8 -- New World Translation)


QUESTION #1 to KENISYES: Wouldn't you agree that a God of love and the sadism involved in burning people for all eternity is a stark contradiction? In fact, would you not agree that love and sadism are polar opposites?

 

[jimmydiggs]

[/FONT][/COLOR]QUESTION #1 to KENISYES: Wouldn't you agree that a God of love and the sadism involved in burning people for all eternity is a stark contradiction? In fact, would you not agree that love and sadism are polar opposites?
[/SIZE]

Nope, not a problem. The Bible says God is love. The bible says the damned will be in eternal torment. It is more loving of God to put them in hell.

 

[weakness]

Proverbs 17;28 Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise :and he that shuteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

 

[jimmydiggs]

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creatureColossians 1:15 -- King James Version)


"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."(Colossians 1:15 -- New American Standard Bible)

You are misusing the term "firstborn" concerning it's usage in scripture.

Here are some examples from the NWT:

Psalm 89
20I have found David my servant;
With my holy oil I have anointed him,
21With whom my own hand will be firm,
Whom my own arm also will strengthen.

22No enemy will make exactions upon him,
Neither will any son of unrighteousness afflict him.

23And from before him I crushed his adversaries to pieces,
And to those intensely hating him I kept dealing out blows.

24And my faithfulness and my loving&#8208;kindness are with him,
And in my name his horn is exalted.

25And on the sea I have put his hand
And on the rivers his right hand.

26He himself calls out to me, &#8216;You are my Father,
My God and the Rock of my salvation.&#8217;

27Also, I myself shall place him as firstborn,
The most high of the kings of the earth.


Was David the first child of his parents? No.

1 Samuel 16:11
Finally Samuel said to Jes&#8242;se: &#8220;Are these all the boys?&#8221; To this he said: &#8220;The youngest one has till now been left out, and, look! he is pasturing the sheep.&#8221; At that Samuel said to Jes&#8242;se: &#8220;Do send and fetch him, because we shall not sit down to meal until his coming here.&#8221;

Here's another, Ephraim:
Jeremiah 31:9
With weeping they will come, and with [their] entreaties for favor I shall bring them. I shall make them walk to torrent valleys of water, in a right way in which they will not be caused to stumble. For I have become to Israel a Father; and as for E&#8242;phra&#8231;im, he is my firstborn.&#8221;


Is Ephraim the first child that was sired? No.

Genesis 41:50-52
And before the year of the famine arrived there were born to Joseph two sons, whom As&#8242;e&#8231;nath the daughter of Pot&#8231;i&#8242;phe&#8231;ra the priest of On bore to him.51So Joseph called the name of the firstborn Ma&#8231;nas&#8242;seh, because, to quote him, &#8220;God has made me forget all my trouble and all the house of my father.&#8221;52And the name of the second he called E&#8242;phra&#8231;im, because, to quote him, &#8220;God has made me fruitful in the land of my wretchedness.&#8221;

In fact, in Genesis 41 it describes Josephs first son as being Manaseh.

So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only BEGOTTEN son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth."(John 1:14 -- New World Translation)


"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only BEGOTTEN of the Father,) full of grace and truth."(John 1:14 -- King James Version)






DEFINITION OF "BORN": Born means having been given life.
Born | Easy to understand definition of born by Your Dictionary


DEFINITION OF "BEGOTTEN": Begotten means something created something else or someone fathered a child.
Begotten | Easy to understand definition of begotten by Your Dictionary


DEFINITION OF "ETERNAL": Eternal means not having a beginning or an end.
Eternal | Easy to understand definition of eternal by Your Dictionary

You are misusing the word "Begotten". You are taking a modern definition and placing it into a word that was not used with the modern definition in mind back in 1611. The usage of the word Begotten has continued to be used as a tradition of translation (using familiar phrases).

If you are going to argue that Jesus is the "only begotten" Son of God in the sense that "he is the only Son God has made for himself", then you are going to have to deny that Abraham had more than one son.

Here's why.

From the NWT.

Hebrews 11:17-19
By faith Abraham, when he was tested, as good as offered up Isaac, and the man that had gladly received the promises attempted to offer up [his] only&#8208;begotten [son],18although it had been said to him: &#8220;What will be called &#8216;your seed&#8217; will be through Isaac.&#8221;19But he reckoned that God was able to raise him up even from the dead; and from there he did receive him also in an illustrative way.

Galatians 4:22 from the NWT
For example, it is written that Abraham acquired two sons, one by the servant girl and one by the free woman

Abraham sired two sons.

QUESTION #4 to JIMMY DIGGS: According to Colossians 1:15 and John 1:14, did Jesus exist for eternity or was he created?

Jesus existed for eternity.

QUESTION #5 to JIMMY DIGGS: An eternal person cannot die. Didn't Jesus Christ literally die?

Yes, he died, but he did not cease to exist as a being.

Then he was physically raised:

From the NWT:
John 20
Well, eight days later his disciples were again indoors, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, although the doors were locked, and he stood in their midst and said: &#8220;May &#8203;YOU&#8203; have peace.&#8221;27Next he said to Thomas: &#8220;Put your finger here, and see my hands, and take your hand and stick it into my side, and stop being unbelieving but become believing.&#8221;28In answer Thomas said to him: &#8220;My Lord and my God!&#8221;29Jesus said to him: &#8220;Because you have seen me have you believed? Happy are those who do not see and yet believe.&#8221;

Then Thomas declares Jesus to be his Lord, and his God.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Just wondering...did the New World Translation remove:

the word Lord from these verses?

Matthew 13:51, Mark 9:24, Mark 11:10, Luke 9:57, Luke 23:42, Acts 7:30, Romans 1:3, Romans 6:11, 1 Corinthians 10:28, 1 Corinthians 15:47, 2 Corinthians 4:10, Galatians 6:17, Ephesians 3:14, Colossians 1:2, 1 Timothy 1:1, 1 Timothy 5:21, 2 Timothy 4:1, 2 John 1:3

And the word Jesus from these verses?:

Matthew 8:29, Matthew 16:20, Romans 1:3, Romans 15:8, 1 Corinthians 16:22, 2 Corinthians 4:6, 2 Corinthians 5:18, Galatians 6:15, Ephesians 3:9, Ephesians 3:14, Colossians 1:2, Colossians 1:28, 2 Timothy 4:22, 1 Peter 5:10, 1 Peter 5:14

And the word hell from these verse?:

Matthew 11:23, Matthew 16:18, Luke 10:15, Acts 2:31, Revelation 1:18, Revelation 6:8, Revelation 20:13, Revelation 20:14

And the word Christ from these verses?:

Luke 4:41, John 4:42, John 6:69, Acts 2:30, Acts 15:11, Acts 16:31, Acts 20:21, Romans 1:3, Romans 1:16, Romans 14:10, 1 Corinthians 5:4, 1 Corinthians 9:1, 1 Corinthians 16:22, 1 Corinthians 16:23, 2 Corinthians 11:31, Galatians 3:17, Galatians 4:7, Galatians 6:15, Ephesians 3:9, Ephesians 3:14, Philippians 4:13, 1 Thessalonians 2:19, 1 Thessalonians 3:11, 1 Thessalonians 3:13, 2 Thessalonians 1:8, 1 Timothy 2:7, 2 Timothy 4:22, Hebrews 3:1, 1 John 1:7, 1 John 4:3, Revelation 1:9, Revelation 12:17

And simply removed these verses?:

Matthew 17:21, Matthew 18:11, Matthew 23:14, Mark 7:16, Mark 9:44, Mark 9:46, Mark 11:26, Mark 15:28, Luke 17:36, Luke 23:17, John 5:4, Acts 8:37, Acts 15:34, Acts 24:7, Acts 28:29, Romans 16:24

ALTER2EGO -to- ABIDING:
Suppose you tell me and the rest of the forum which word appears in the New World Translation where "hell" appears in your version? Some on the forum may not possess a New World Translation, so I am sure they would like to know.


BTW: I addressed your other scriptures in my thread entitled: "PROOF: Judeo-Christian Bible Inspired by God" You will find my responses at Post 3, Post 4, and Post 5. Below is the weblink that will get you there quickly.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-christian-bible-inspired-god.html#post810437

 

[Ariel82]

just because you found a translation of the Bible willing to foster your disbelief in Hell does not mean anything.

I just spoke last weekend with a lady who thinks Jesus second coming was a dead Korean man and that the Heavenly Jeruselum is a Korean woman who is her "mother God" and they claim to be the "church of God" and "Bible believing"

Sorry I had to inform her that she went by a different Bible and a different Gospel. that Her God and Her Christ were just humans and nothing divine or holy about them, no matter that they had an "evidence book" Their logic was still twisted and warp to believe that THE Holy Spirit does not refer to a spirit but a flesh and blood man.

anyway I just skimmed this thread and wanted to say Hi to Abiding and Jimmy. See you guys in another thread. have to get ready for work.

 

[Kerykeion]

...Jimmy is a satanist just so you guys know his icon is a bible outlined in black with a black unholy cross in the middle

you have people with satanic symbols posting all over this board... wake up! LOOK FOR THE BLACK DOMINATED BY RED OR BLACK AND WHITE WITH BLACK IN THE CENTER. THEY HAVE TO EXPRESS WHO THEY ARE WHEN THEY FOLLOW satan to let others of their group know it etc....