The False Doctrine of OSAS

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Shall we continue with this debate?

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  • Total voters
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  • Poll closed .
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Sigh, YES, this is the Truth,eg, mari, Ricky:

And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Therein lies what, Or, Who rather we are justified by. :)

Again, does the Lord like you calling accepting His Holy Spirit a 'work?'

It is simply part of the justification process.
that is where you are wrong. we recieve the spirit BACAUSE we are justified. Not as a process. but as a gift. And it is all because of true faith. not of works.

You keep trying to earn it. when you do not even realise you will never be able to earn it.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
I dont think the parable of the sower has anything to do with the churches responsibility.
This parable has to do with a persons heart. Which makes it ever more appropriate to this OP.

Weeds are about life and all its wonder in this life(the world) and its worries, not church doctrine.
All the things a person will put between them and the gospel they heard...in fact if they
want to hang on yet do it their own way...they will heap to themselves teachers(that they like)
with itching ears.

Those with a heart that puts their full trust in the Lord with Love is the good ground(heart)
Only those who trust will be brought to eternal life. Thats what it means to receive the gospel

John 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (John 1:12, KJV).

I went to many many churches that taught junk...had little to do with my faith.
I didnt receive it and moved on, until i was fed real food.
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
personally I believe anyone who declares any one is saved or not saved is in error. for know one knows the heart but God.

as for those who backslide not being saved or not. God says they are. we should trust what god says not man. Another possibility is they were never saved. either way we can not know what situation a person may be in, so do not have the right to judge them.


[/b]


that would be no faith at all. but mere belief, which is why they fell. they were never saved.




or maybe they wanted nothing to do with it in the first place. they did not have faith at all..

again, one should never judge.


If God wasn't dealing with their hearts, chances are they would not be in church to begin with. Keep in mind I'm not talking about people who, for whatever reason, are forced to go to church. Rather, I'm talking about people whom God had performed a wonderful work in their life and such people bore good fruit. However, in their zeal to get more involved in church, they got mixed in with the wrong crowd and became hurt and / offended and determined that church was a joke.

As a young man I was one of those people. Praise God that He never gave up on me when the church did. However, I can't help but think about how different life would have been if I had been properly discipled at such a young age. This question is my motivation to disciple young people & new believers in such a way that they will pursue God regardless of what obstacles they may face, especially when they find themselves among "weeds / goats" within the church.
 
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marianna

Guest
Trax:
Well, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit and He is our guarantee. -- Yes He is. But....
Since God sees the end from the beginning, whatever debt that will be run up, by the sinner, is paid for. Except?
We get the Holy Spirit as a seal and guarantee. If you don't feel as if you have been sealed and given a guarantee, -- I point others to the need of having God's Spirit to guide us home, yet you have not seen me speak of this more times than there are numbers?
Why are you preaching to (and threatening) the choir (flock)?
Perhaps preaching to the lost is what you intend.

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. - Romans 8:9

Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" - Galatians 4:6

then what did Jesus pay for? -- He paid for my sins. He has given me everlasting life. He has given me of His Spirit so that I may be led to His rest. There is no doubt in my mind that God is my Savior. But then again, IF I TURN from my righteousness, what will happen to my righteousness? So, all the more, I depend on Him in His wisdom to lead me.
You don't have any righteousness.
Not enough to earn you anything at all.
God has concluded all have sinned and come short of His glory.
Not only have all sinned, there is NONE righteous, not even one.

Enter JESUS.

For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. - Romans 5:19

Do you understand what God has done?
Do you understand imputed righteousness?

This does not diminish from your new heart's desire to do what you now know is pleasing.

The only reason you desire this is because the Blood of Christ has taken away your sin; and Christ's Righteousness is credited to you. Even still your righteousness will never save you.

Anything less than absolutely purity, holiness and the Righteousness of God will not suffice.
Will you EVER attain the same Righteousness Jesus has without God crediting it to you?
EVER? if you had a million years?

This GIFT is received by FAITH ALONE.
Faith in Perfectly Sinless, Perfectly Righteous Jesus, granted by a Gracious God Who gave His Perfect Son.

Why is this received by faith alone?

Because it is the Triune God Who gets ALL the GLORY. For everything. Without exception.

“For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is a gift of God: not of works lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8–9

Did Paul make it clear God specifically planned this so that NOT A SINGLE SOLITARY REDEEMED MAN ANYWHERE EVER WILL BE ABLE TO BOAST OF A SINGLE THING AT ANY TIME?

“I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, and be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.” - Philippians 3:8–9

Did He leave you with a debt, that must be paid? -- He left me hope, He left me with the Spirit of Hope. But then again, have I not said this abundently in other posts? The only thing left for me to do to enter my sabbatical rest is to hearken to His leading me to that rest. (the answer to the question)
You've either entered His Rest (received and rejoice in the FREE GIFT) or you haven't (working for your salvation - you will earn the wages of work, even the work of attempting to be justified by the Good and Holy Law):

If you do words studies this is what you will see:

“BEING DECLARED RIGHTEOUS freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.”- Romans 3:24

“Therefore we conclude that a man IS DECLARED RIGHTEOUS by faith without deeds of the law.”- Romans 3:28

“Seeing, it is one God, which SHALL DECLARE RIGHTEOUS the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.” - Romans 3:30

“Therefore being DECLARED RIGHTEOUS by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.” - Romans 5:1

“Knowing that man is not DECLARED RIGHTEOUS by the works of the Law but by the faith of Jesus Christ ... not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no person be DECLARED RIGHTEOUS.” - Galatians 2:16

The Holy Spirit will absolutely, without the slightest chance of failing, deliver you Home.
For JESUS's Name Sake!

Why do you have such little trust?

It is because you still think it is by your merit.
If it is by your merit, you will NEVER enter His rest, nor will you go Home.

The debt has been paid, the downpayment has been secured, the full possession will take place.
All because while we were sinners, God was reconciling us to Him - HE DID IT.

If so, you are working for yourself. -- My salvation is assured in the same way you have mentioned. Obedinece to Him is not work, it is common sense, seeing that He and He along knows the way home. So, if I concur with that, that is work?
You don't know the way Home?

yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach - Colossians 1:22

Who did the reconciling?
Whose death accomplished it?
In order to do what?
Are you in reality in your flesh today "holy and blameless and beyond reproach"?

You can't serve two masters. --So I will obey Him in His leading :)
Could you please define at last "His leading"?

And if anyone isn't sealed with the Holy Spirit and given the guarantee, they aren't part of Jesus. -- My point exactely. If one refuses God's Spirit, that one is fatherless.
So go out into the world and preach the Gospel to the perishing who have not yet received the Spirit!

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit - Ephesians 1:13
 
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GreenNnice

Guest
put yourself in their shoes ad the pharisees shoes. Imagine working your whole life to live righteous, to do all these religious cermony and tradition. To sacrifice so much for God, and then be told all of that work amounts to filthy rags, that without the death of Christ and the cross, you are lost with no hope. It angers them, it is why They crucified christ, and why people will not see or hear even today. It is called pride. How dare you tell me all i have done will not have a thing to do with my eternal justification!
YOU don't understand the true revealed Truth of 1 Cor. 6. If you did, guys, we wouldn't be having this 'gnashing teeth' (judgment of me doing works to get to Heaven) conversation.

Scripture is clear how Truthfully important the Spirit leading your life is and it has nothing to do with works and everything to do with following Christ personally in your life as He administers great mercy, untold (and told) grace, and, Love unto your obedient way of doing things (faith) that leads to His 'rest.' :)

The Holy Spirit, Lord , God lead my life, through Truth that my spirit is made known to, through prayer, faith, going where He leads.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
If God wasn't dealing with their hearts, chances are they would not be in church to begin with. Keep in mind I'm not talking about people who, for whatever reason, are forced to go to church. Rather, I'm talking about people whom God had performed a wonderful work in their life and such people bore good fruit. However, in their zeal to get more involved in church, they got mixed in with the wrong crowd and became hurt and / offended and determined that church was a joke.


Yet and satan took them out. But as God said, he would never leave nor forsake them. I have seen this also. I have also seen many of these same people after the chastening of God come back and find a real church, and get real food which nourishes the soul.

which is why I said we should never condemn anyone, because we just can;t know if they were saved or not.


As a young man I was one of those people. Praise God that He never gave up on me when the church did. However, I can't help but think about how different life would have been if I had been properly discipled at such a young age. This question is my motivation to disciple young people & new believers in such a way that they will pursue God regardless of what obstacles they may face, especially when they find themselves among "weeds / goats" within the church.
I agree 100 %. I just pray you do not tell them if they do not stick it out God will forsake them and remove his gift from them.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
the sower has nothing to do with church, or doctrine, or anything but
the individual persons heart.

When the persons heart is right then the person advances, no matter
what...this is not a thing God leaves to people, He is the Sower
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
YOU don't understand the true revealed Truth of 1 Cor. 6. If you did, guys, we wouldn't be having this 'gnashing teeth' (judgment of me doing works to get to Heaven) conversation.
No, your the one who does not understand it. Your saying we must work to be justified. Paul did not say it, he said we were justified by the work of God in 1 cor 6.

Scripture is clear how Truthfully important the Spirit leading your life is and it has nothing to do with works and everything to do with following Christ personally in your life as He administers great mercy, untold (and told) grace, and, Love unto your obedient way of doing things (faith) that leads to His 'rest.' :)

The Holy Spirit, Lord , God lead my life, through Truth that my spirit is made known to, through prayer, faith, going where He leads.

Scripture is very clear if you are not justified, you do not have the spirit. (this are not saved) And if you have the spirit. You WILL do the very thing you are saying, thus there is no conversation here. Your trying to work for it however. and deny it. your fooling yourself. not anyone else.
 
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marianna

Guest
At end of day? Are we perfect on any particular day? If you think so you do not know God. so how many of us have walked any day in our lives where we could say for that day we earned the right to be saved? Of course even if we could do this. what would a statement like that be? would it not be pride which says this? and would it not open the door for satan to come in and take you down a few steps? (believe me I have seen it happen, so don't deny it can never happen)

Why not wake up in the morning, and say thank You god for another day, for I know where I deserve to be. and at night, say thank You god for whatever you did for me today, because I know I did not deserve any good thing which happened to me today. And oh by the way, Thank you god for loving me even though I sinned against you today by doing whatever you did. And God help me to be awake when the temptation comes to do that again, so I can have a better chance of following you and not my flesh tomorrow.
Amen Eternally Grateful.
This is self-evident for those who have truly met the Living God.
God Bless
marianna
 
A

Abiding

Guest
The leading of the Spirit is NOT something WE do.
Paul is telling us that is done(meaning the Spirit IS, not in some esoteric,mystical way) if your saved.
Whether you see it or not. He will finish the work in us to glory.
Thats really what the entire chapter of Rom 8 is about.

We are workers together with Him on our sanctification for
sure but thats another topic altogather.
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
From what I can gather, this conversation is moot because both sides are reading into this conversation what they want to see rather than what people are actually trying to say. Because of this, people responding to their own assumptions of what they presume the other person is saying when in truth those people did not say those things at all.

Whether you realize it or not, both sides appear to be indoctrinated into a certain way of thinking and are attempting to argue against an opposing position. Because of this, you are reading and interjecting things into the conversation that was never intended.

You can't have a constructive conversation with close minded people. All such people do is argue at one another rather than converse with one another which is obviously going on here.
 
M

marianna

Guest
How convenient of a justification process you've stated, eg.

But, no thanks, thank God that His way of getting to Heaven is not based on something so simple as mere belief in the cross but , as Paul mentioned, 'I've run the race.'

Sure, grace all over yourself and spill that on people all day long like you have been doing for who knows how long--falsely--
Dear GreenNnice,
You may wish to take another look at the club you have been wielding.
I see trouble coming for you.
I'll pray for you.

How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? - Hebrews 10:29
 
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GreenNnice

Guest
Where do you guys come up with this stuff???

Who is saying they earned the rightvto be saved. On page 7, I'm quite clear saying 'I am running a race,' for getting 'a crown of life from Christ Jesus.' So as did Paul. So as do will you :)

Grace alone is wrong, mari, faith, too, and, that's the BIG difference-maker word of Ephesians 2:8 , mari, and, wow, the Lord leads, great, I don't need to bring up 'I run the race' page 7 post, thanks :)
 
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marianna

Guest
From what I can gather, this conversation is moot because both sides are reading into this conversation what they want to see rather than what people are actually trying to say. Because of this, people responding to their own assumptions of what they presume the other person is saying when in truth those people did not say those things at all.

Whether you realize it or not, both sides appear to be indoctrinated into a certain way of thinking and are attempting to argue against an opposing position. Because of this, you are reading and interjecting things into the conversation that was never intended.

You can't have a constructive conversation with close minded people. All such people do is argue at one another rather than converse with one another which is obviously going on here.
Hi Crossfire:)
A cooler head!
Where is it going wrong?
God Bless,
marianna
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
I just pray you do not tell them if they do not stick it out God will forsake them and remove his gift from them.
Please note that not once did I ever say anything close to your statement. This is something that you yourself have interjected into the conversation because you are attempting to argue against a perspective that you assume that I hold to when I never stated such a thing.



 
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GreenNnice

Guest
From what I can gather, this conversation is moot because both sides are reading into this conversation what they want to see rather than what people are actually trying to say. Because of this, people responding to their own assumptions of what they presume the other person is saying when in truth those people did not say those things at all.

Whether you realize it or not, both sides appear to be indoctrinated into a certain way of thinking and are attempting to argue against an opposing position. Because of this, you are reading and interjecting things into the conversation that was never intended.

You can't have a constructive conversation with close minded people. All such people do is argue at one another rather than converse with one another which is obviously going on here.
Scripture is clear, too, that we should not argue with 'divisive' people for very long.

This conversation is quick going that direction I no doubt agree, crossfyre.
 
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marianna

Guest
If God wasn't dealing with their hearts, chances are they would not be in church to begin with. Keep in mind I'm not talking about people who, for whatever reason, are forced to go to church. Rather, I'm talking about people whom God had performed a wonderful work in their life and such people bore good fruit. However, in their zeal to get more involved in church, they got mixed in with the wrong crowd and became hurt and / offended and determined that church was a joke.


Amen!
God Bless!
And even not in church yet perhaps. For He searches out the sinners where they are.
We don't see Him at work in others unless we're directly working with them and can hear their professions.
We may not see those He is working with at all - until later if He delivers them to our own assembly, part of His Houshold!

I like your post very much.

As a young man I was one of those people. Praise God that He never gave up on me when the church did. However, I can't help but think about how different life would have been if I had been properly discipled at such a young age. This question is my motivation to disciple young people & new believers in such a way that they will pursue God regardless of what obstacles they may face, especially when they find themselves among "weeds / goats" within the church.
Why did the church give up on you?
Because you evidently were stuck in sin, so they determined you were reprobate?
Yes, this is exactly the worst case scenario, isn't it. Hypocritical.

I'm grateful The LORD is using you to rectify that problem.
Compassion for sinners is what Jesus wants.
God Bless:)
marianna
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
lol. Did He say he stopped us from leaving him?
Did he stop the prodigal son? No. Did the prodigal stop being the son even when he left? No


Did he stop the sheep from leaving? no. Did the sheep willingly come back when he went after them? yes. --Assumption. Does the Shepherd relocate the other sheep so that that one sheep can remain where he is? Or does He say that after so much attempt if he does not repent and return that he is to be treated as an alien, a tax collector. Does it not also say that it is not the will of our Father that one of His children should perish. But yet, we have an example of one who is a brother of faith and yet if he will not repent even under the witness of two or three then he is to become a heathen, one who is a foreigner of that house of faith. Context is important, and with that in mind, here is the Scripture speaking what to do with an unrepentant brother who has gone astray:


Mat 18:12-17How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of thatsheep,than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.But if he will not hearthee, thentake with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.And if he shall neglect to hear them, tellitunto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
 
Why did you TWIST what was being discussed. --Are we not still talking about OSAS?

When we leave, that is when the Shepard comes to get us is it not. Which is what you asked.
So your going to use the REASON we left to refute my thought on the REASON we come back? -- We both speak a side. So what was and is said in response to what you have written is my reply to what I have read.

That is sort of contradictory is it not? -- For me to reply with my own thoughts which pops up in my mind when reading your post, and because they do not agree, then yes, it is true on both sides that our replies will be in contradiction to the other. But how we react to that contradiction is what matters.

Come on now. try again, and stop twisting things. ok.
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
Hi Crossfire:)
A cooler head!
Where is it going wrong?
God Bless,
marianna

This conversation has clearly reached a point where people are argue at one another rather than attempting to talk to one another. You have people arguing against certain perspectives that the other person never introduced into the conversation in the first place.

It's rather silly actually.
 
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marianna

Guest

This conversation has clearly reached a point where people are argue at one another rather than attempting to talk to one another. You have people arguing against certain perspectives that the other person never introduced into the conversation in the first place.

It's rather silly actually.
Well, I guess the question remains, is there eternal security for the believer.
Some say yes and some say no.

What do you say?