The Fixed Earth

[Grimaldus]

No that is incorrect, there is no scriptural evidence of a flat Earth.

If you are not a Christian and do not believe that scripture is right about anything, perhaps you would do better to find another forum, I wish to discuss the Bible, that is why I started this thread, so I can discuss the Bible with others who at least have some Biblical knowledge, you have none, neither are you interested in learning, so why do you persist on making snide remarks on this thread? I have no interest any anything you have to say as you have nothing constructive to add to this thread.

I beleive snail provided scriptural evidence on the matter. Once again, I don't want to get into that.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

People have also disproved geocentricism, but you turn down their evidence, occasionaly claiming them to be liars and people trying to impose this "false theory" of heliocentrecism for some unknown objective.

Fine then, go and speak with them, the entire modern world believes in heliocentricism, I don't, I believe the Bible, I am a Christian who believes what is written in the Bible, I have the right to speak freely of my ideas on my thread, if you don't like my ideas, then go somewhere else, I don't care, you are just clogging up the comments and I have others comments to answer, so if you don't mind, just go somewhere else.

 

[Grimaldus]

Fine then, go and speak with them, the entire modern world believes in heliocentricism, I don't, I believe the Bible, I am a Christian who believes what is written in the Bible, I have the right to speak freely of my ideas on my thread, if you don't like my ideas, then go somewhere else, I don't care, you are just clogging up the comments and I have others comments to answer, so if you don't mind, just go somewhere else.

Haven't you noticed that most everyone on here, except you, beleves in a heliocentric system, which highlights my point that this isn't so much of a discussion rather than you raving against the obvious truth.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Isaiah 55:8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the LORD."

Ex. 9:16 "And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to show in thee My power, and that My Name may be declared throughout all the earth."

The word of Scripture is God's word, this is called "the scripture of truth", that is what God says.

1 Chron. 16:30 "...the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved."



Psalm 19:5 "...and the sun - cometh out to run."

Psalm 19:6 "...the sun goes forth in a circle from one end of heaven to the other..."

Psalm 93:1 "...the world also is stablished that it cannot be moved..."

Psalm 104:19 "...the sun knoweth his going down."

Ecclesiastes 1:5 "...The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down and hasteth to the place where he arose."

Amos 8:9 "...cause the sun to go down at noon."

Micah 3:6 "...and the sun shall go down."

Jonah 4:8 "...when the sun did arise."

Matthew 5:45 "...for He maketh His sun to rise..."

Mark 1:32 "...when the sun did set."

It would appear that God is saying that the sun is moving and the earth is not, and that is how it appears to me everyday, and every known physical test just further proves a stationary earth, if God says it, and I see it and I test it and it all corresponds, then I can establish truth with God trusting in His sure word. I do know that many will be decieved, so maybe that is you, maybe you have severely underestimated that powers of Satan, maybe you do not love God for God is truth, but you make Him a liar, and by that you will be judged.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Isaiah 38:8

"So the sun returned ten degrees..."

Habakkuk 3:11

"The sun and moon stood still in their habitation"

Joshua 10:13

"And the sun stood still and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven and hasteth not to go down a whole day."

 

[Astronut]

The computerized image enhancing that you have done on the picture I saw from an earlier post, is sufficient to deem that your photo is a misrepresentation.

Adjusting a 12 bit or more histogram to fit an 8 bit image you can actually view on a standard monitor is "misrepresentation"? Yes in the process I make sure the 8 bit histogram range is selected to be bright enough, but that is not considered misrepresentation by any serious authority. Averaging images isn't misrepresenting anything either - it's simply adding multiple exposures into one, no different than doing a very long exposure

These images for example I still have a problem with accepting, can you tell me in detail what it is you are imaging, I would like you to give astronomical details of the photos, location in the night sky, name, distance, composition of subject matter, is it a forming star? or galaxy? what's is it made of, etc.

First object is M82, Cigar galaxy. RA: 09h 55m 52 sec DEC:+69° 40′ 47″ Distance: 11.5 million light years. The red core is an active star forming region due to an active black hole churning material around. The second object is M3 globular cluster, a bunch of stars 33,900 light years away in the constellation Canes Venatici. RA:13h 42m 11.23sec DEC:28° 22′ 31.6″ The third object is M51 whirlpool galaxy. RA: 13h 29m 52.7sec DEC:+47° 11′ 43″ Distance: 23 million light years

I havn't had time to fully investigate this computer program, but my suspicion is that it is simulating images, that is giving a false representation of reality, in fact it is more of a virtual reality.

You've demonstrated you don't know what constitutes "simulating" images.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

First object is M82, Cigar galaxy. RA: 09h 55m 52 sec DEC:+69° 40′ 47″ Distance: 11.5 million light years. The red core is an active star forming region due to an active black hole churning material around. The second object is M3 globular cluster, a bunch of stars 33,900 light years away in the constellation Canes Venatici. RA:13h 42m 11.23sec DEC:28° 22′ 31.6″ The third object is M51 whirlpool galaxy. RA: 13h 29m 52.7sec DEC:+47° 11′ 43″ Distance: 23 million light years
.

OK let me focus on the second object, now I understand this was filmed with your Meade telescope LX200 with a 'deep sky imager' is that correct?

 

[Astronut]

OK let me focus on the second object, now I understand this was filmed with your Meade telescope LX200 with a 'deep sky imager' is that correct?

Why does it matter which object? All 3 were filmed on the same night and broadcast live online. As for the camera, no, it was not the DSI, it was the digital SLR taking the pictures - the images were downloaded and immediately displayed; the first image of each object is just a single, untouched image from the camera and each successive image of the same object is averaged into the previous images to increase the effective integration time.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Why does it matter which object? All 3 were filmed on the same night and broadcast live online. As for the camera, no, it was not the DSI, it was the digital SLR taking the pictures - the images were downloaded and immediately displayed; the first image of each object is just a single, untouched image from the camera and each successive image of the same object is averaged into the previous images to increase the effective integration time.

OK, so the digital SLR is connected to your Meade telescope is that right? And on these photos you are not using the DSI at all?

 

[MahogonySnail]

I don't, I believe the Bible, I am a Christian who believes what is written in the Bible

..and Greek Philosphy. The bible teaches flat-earth. If you believed only what was written in the bible you'd believe in flat earth too. Flat-earthers take the bible more literally than you do, and therefore are probably more "Christian" than you are.

 

[Slepsog4]

No true Christian is going to believe the flat earth view. It does not square with the Bible. One can only uphold the flat earth position by holding only a select few passages and ignoring others.

 

[MahogonySnail]

No true Christian is going to believe the flat earth view.

And no sane person. Of course the Christian would believe in a round-earth, because by the time Christianity came about, Greek philosophy was already established. Yet, we uphold old testament scriptures which are clearly flat-earth in nature, much much older than Greek philosophy , and we pretend that these scriptures teach a spherical earth. This is fitting a modern interpretation to the scriptures, instead of reading them as they stand and as how the ancient authors and readers would have read them. That the scripture teaches a flat earth is not only evident in the canon, but also matches nicely with the non-canonical books such as 1 Enoch which is explicitly flat-aerth, highlights the ancient people's view of a flat -earth. Not to mention that the canonical scripture references this book (eg Jude), and 1 Enoch is highly regarded.

If the ancient Jews believe in a flat-earth, like their contemporaries, who are we with the benefit of Greek philosophy and scientific knowledge, to claim that the bible undoubtedly teaches a spherical earth? Except that we base our views of scripture on a modern-day presumption that every tit-bit of information in the scriptures about the world is supposed to line up with modern-day scientific fact, "Because God said so, and the bible is 100% perfect".

One can only uphold the flat earth position by holding only a select few passages and ignoring others.

We can only hold a spherical earth position by mis-interpreting or ignoring the passages which do clearly show flat-earth language, misunderstand the intended purpose of the scripture (as spiritual guide, not scientific encyclopedia), and ignore the ancient and historical times in which the scriptures were written (that being in an ancient world where flat-earth cosmologies were common). Assuming that human kind did not have the benefit of hindsight, Greek philosphy, world and space exploration and the scientific knowledge we have not, but only a bible, humans would most likely believe in a flat earth, not round.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

..and Greek Philosphy. The bible teaches flat-earth. If you believed only what was written in the bible you'd believe in flat earth too. Flat-earthers take the bible more literally than you do, and therefore are probably more "Christian" than you are.

No that is incorrect, I pointed out to you earlier 'Snail, that Isaiah was teaching a Spherical earth hundreds of years before Greek civilization even began.

Look I have already proven with scripture that the earth is spherical, if someone wants to believe in a flat earth, they can interpret that Bible how they like, I don't care... the Bible never says that the earth is flat, it has nothing to do with literal or not, the fact is that the earth is a sphere and the Bible accurately describes this to a sufficient degree that a Bible reader can figure this out using his or her own God given sense and eyes.

What you are saying is that Holy Scripture teaches a flat earth when the earth is spherical, what you are saying is that God got it wrong, He is ignorant of His own creation whereas you as an insignificant member of a cyberspace forum know better, you are saying that all the prophets; Moses, Isaiah, Job, none of them had the foggiest idea what they were talking about but merely ripped off some local fables from the surrounding peoples! Basically you just drag the word of God through the mud, you just stomp all over it call God a liar and march off to your own beat!

The Bible does NOT teach a flat earth, and I don't care if anybody thinks that it does, sunday school kids might think that Satan is snake that gave Eve an rosy red apple, just because one person thinks something does not make it true!

What's your argument other than; God writes entertaining fairy stories? You would openly denounce the word of God only because you wish to claim victory in a debate on the internet, that is ego that's all, it's only your ego talking without respect fot the spirit of truth even the holy spirit, you cannot be a Christian like that, that's not being a Christian.

Let me state again, the Bible teaches that the earth is a sphere and it is at the centre of the universe, that is Geocentric, the Earth is the centre, the Earth is not some insignificant little blue planet on the outskirts of some insignificant galaxy, just one of billions in an incredibly massive universe! That is a lie from the depths of HELL AND NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH!
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to all this fantastic claims the sthe scientific establishment pronounce from their pulpits, none whatsoever, and they speak their rubbish uncontested as if was direct from the mouth of God Himself, and I for one will not stand for it, because it is not true, it is not scientific, it is not proven, it is not observable and it is not reasonable and it is unGodly, it is NOT WHAT HE HAS SAID! And if anybody what's to say that it is just so they can keep peace with the world, then don't expect any sympathy from me, or support.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

And no sane person. Of course the Christian would believe in a round-earth, because by the time Christianity came about, Greek philosophy was already established.

That is rubbish, utter rubbish!!!

Christ created the universe, that puts Christ and Christianty before any Greek philosopher!!!!!

 

[MahogonySnail]

No that is incorrect, I pointed out to you earlier 'Snail, that Isaiah was teaching a Spherical earth hundreds of years before Greek civilization even began.

If Isaiah was teaching a spherical earth, then they should have told the ancient Jews and whoever wrote the book of Enoch, which was written after Isaiah. That consistency is not found throughout the canon or non-canonical books re: spherical earth.

The Bible does NOT teach a flat earth, and I don't care if anybody thinks that it does, sunday school kids might think that Satan is snake that gave Eve an rosy red apple, just because one person thinks something does not make it true!

I found this comment a little strange, particularly the part I highlighted in bold - please consider your own position re: helio vs geo centricity.

Let me state again, the Bible teaches that the earth is a sphere and it is at the centre of the universe, that is Geocentric, the Earth is the centre,

Ptolemy and Aristotle might have taught that. But, the bible itself seems to teach a flat earth with a hemispherical hard sky-dome firmanent and "windows" through which the sun and moon, stars etc poke through, established on a solid foundation or pillar which cannot be moved. Even today a flat earth is often an acceptable approximation of the earths surface.

What's your argument other than; God writes entertaining fairy stories? You would openly denounce the word of God only because you wish to claim victory in a debate on the internet, that is ego that's all, it's only your ego talking without respect fot the spirit of truth even the holy spirit, you cannot be a Christian like that, that's not being a Christian.

Hey, unlike you, at least I bother to capitalise Holy Spirit (out of respect). Not faerie stories, but symbolism, metaphors, figurative speech. The bible is full of it, you said so yourself once. I'm not denouncing the word of God, I'm interpreting it as it should be interpreted. Please be honest now and state where do you really get your beliefs from (eg Greek philosophy?, Aristotle?, Ptolemy?).

What you are saying is that Holy Scripture teaches a flat earth when the earth is spherical, what you are saying is that God got it wrong, He is ignorant of His own creation whereas you as an insignificant member of a cyberspace forum know better, you are saying that all the prophets; Moses, Isaiah, Job, none of them had the foggiest idea what they were talking about but merely ripped off some local fables from the surrounding peoples! Basically you just drag the word of God through the mud, you just stomp all over it call God a liar and march off to your own beat!

The liar would be the one who claims the bible says something that it doesn't say. (eg that the earth is spherical and geocentric universe), ignorant of its figurative meanings and/or the historical context and ancient world-view which the authors and readers had.

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to all this fantastic claims the sthe scientific establishment pronounce from their pulpits, none whatsoever, and they speak their rubbish uncontested as if was direct from the mouth of God Himself, and I for one will not stand for it, because it is not true, it is not scientific, it is not proven, it is not observable and it is not reasonable and it is unGodly, it is NOT WHAT HE HAS SAID! And if anybody what's to say that it is just so they can keep peace with the world, then don't expect any sympathy from me, or support.

Newton was a devout Christian, go figure? Or get off your pathetic soap -box.

Christ created the universe, that puts Christ and Christianty before any Greek philosopher!!!!!

So according to you, Christianity existed before Greek philosophy? Proof?

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

If Isaiah was teaching a spherical earth, then they should have told the ancient Jews and whoever wrote the book of Enoch, which was written after Isaiah. That consistency is not found throughout the canon or non-canonical books re: spherical earth.

Enoch, Enoch wrote the Book of Enoch and if you didn't know he lived before the Deluge, is it inspired? The Apostles thought so, they must have had the right scripture.

Does it teach a flat earth, NO IT DOES NOT! Describes a Geocentric universe, yes!

The ancient Jews are not the Israelites, Jews and Israelites two different peoples, the Jews have their own writings, which you can read in the Talmud.

I found this comment a little strange, particularly the part I highlighted in bold - please consider your own position re: helio vs geo centricity.

It does not matter what I think, what matters is what the Bible says! My position regards the structure of the universe is consistant with the teachings of the Bible, a Heliocentric system is not.

Ptolemy and Aristotle might have taught that. But, the bible itself seems to teach a flat earth with a hemispherical hard sky-dome firmanent and "windows" through which the sun and moon, stars etc poke through, established on a solid foundation or pillar which cannot be moved. Even today a flat earth is often an acceptable approximation of the earths surface.

No, "He hangeth the earth on nothing" Job 26:7

So according to you, Christianity existed before Greek philosophy? Proof?

Well it says right here in Colossians 1:16 "By him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in the earth...all things were created by him and for him."

John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not anything that was made."

What is Christianity? It is the belief in the promise of things unseen that are to come, and by that we know that all the prophets are Christians, Adam and Eve were Christians, for they did believe the prophecy of the seed of the woman just ;like now today Christians believe in the promise of his return, this is the true religion - Christianity, there are only two religions in the world; there is the true religion and the false apostate religion that traces all the way back to Cain! There are only Christians or anti-Christians, if one does not believe that God came in the flesh as according to the Bible then you are an anti-christ, simple.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Cup-of-Ruin I am smart enough to know that despite your claims, before Christ came to earth, there were no Christians on the earth and therefore no Christianity.The question is, are you smart enough to realise that.

As for whether Enoch teaches a flat earth, it really a big YES. The fact that you deny it, shows either a) you've never read Enoch, or b) you never understood it. It is the clearest scripture we have about a flat-earth. What's more, it's purpose as more scientific book (unlike most of the Canon) emphasises that the ancient world's scientific knowledge was lacking.
So much so, that the easier option for the fundamentalist (and probably for you also) is not to question Enoch's flat-earthness, but to disregard it altogether on the basis of it being uninspired non-canonical scripture. Yet we know the book of Jude in the bible quotes it all the same.

Throughout early church history there were various people of note who believed in a flat-earth. Tertullian was one of them I think. What should be clear is that a spherical earth view is NOT as explicit in scripture as you claim it to be. At least we have the benefit of modern day science.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Cup-of-Ruin I am smart enough to know that despite your claims, before Christ came to earth, there were no Christians on the earth and therefore no Christianity.The question is, are you smart enough to realise that.

Adam was a Christian.

As for whether Enoch teaches a flat earth, it really a big YES. The fact that you deny it, shows either a) you've never read Enoch, or b) you never understood it. It is the clearest scripture we have about a flat-earth.

No your incorrect again 'Snail, the Earth is not described as being flat, Now considering that Enoch spoke with God personally in Heaven, I think he would know what shape the earth was.

Throughout early church history there were various people of note who believed in a flat-earth.

Throughout Church history there are various people who knew the world to be a sphere.

 

[EmersonWolfe]

........................................

 

[loveschild]

God made it all and he knows what he's doing.