Fallacies of the Present Day Church
- Thread starter Skinski7
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Well, if it's repented of it's no more pride is it?
If God can humble you, that is if a person isn't so far along and so set in their ways.
Only God knows. But what I'm saying is that as long as someone is in this condition, they are lost when they think they are following God..
What makes this condition - (spiritual pride) worse then sins of the flesh(drunkenness, fornication, brawling, etc.), is that those sins are
easily seen as sins. I mean everyone can see them, and the ostracizing of others tends to lead the guilty to examine themselves.
Where as spiritual pride does none of this. A person can reside happily in it thinking they are doing the will of God.
This is the danger of it. In a sense no sin is unpardonable if it is recognized and repented (changed away) from.
But thinking you are in a state that you are not (in Christ) is most dangerous.
Only God knows. I was to hasty in applying it to others, because only God knows......for that I am sorry and do repent.
But it is hard when you see someone to whom you showed the truth, and helped lead them into a fuller understanding
of the immutability of God's grace, turn around and second the opinions of those who throw unfounded, railing accusations at you.
If God can humble you, that is if a person isn't so far along and so set in their ways.
Only God knows. But what I'm saying is that as long as someone is in this condition, they are lost when they think they are following God..
What makes this condition - (spiritual pride) worse then sins of the flesh(drunkenness, fornication, brawling, etc.), is that those sins are
easily seen as sins. I mean everyone can see them, and the ostracizing of others tends to lead the guilty to examine themselves.
Where as spiritual pride does none of this. A person can reside happily in it thinking they are doing the will of God.
This is the danger of it. In a sense no sin is unpardonable if it is recognized and repented (changed away) from.
But thinking you are in a state that you are not (in Christ) is most dangerous.
Only God knows. I was to hasty in applying it to others, because only God knows......for that I am sorry and do repent.
But it is hard when you see someone to whom you showed the truth, and helped lead them into a fuller understanding
of the immutability of God's grace, turn around and second the opinions of those who throw unfounded, railing accusations at you.
F
Yes but the unpardonable sin does not mention the state of death, and one being judged. It clearly says one who commits this will not be forgiven.
If this is meaning sin that must have repentance, then I would agree that all unrepentant sin is unpardonable sin, seeing what sin can we die in and not be judged?
If this is meaning sin that must have repentance, then I would agree that all unrepentant sin is unpardonable sin, seeing what sin can we die in and not be judged?
Skniski - Black RickShafer - Red.
Fallacy 1: Sin is an inbred disease people are born with. (His contention)
This is the main misconception that necessitates and influences all other Bible teachings within the Church. (Don’t think it doesn’t, it DOES!) Before debating any other theological positions, you must address the subject of man. Many fail to see the importance of correctly dividing choice from nature, but it’s obvious, they are opposites. The idea of an “inbred” nature causing people to sin totally eliminates freewill and in the end provides an excuse for the sinner (my body made me do it!).Please explain the fall? And what died the day Adam and Eve partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? God said - "For in the day you eat from it you will surely die."Gen2:17 By preachers embracing this concept, they automatically eliminate the convicting power of the Holy Spirit and promise people liberty in Christ while are still in bondage to their numerous sins. Talk about a straw man! First you proclaim there is no such thing as 'original sin' - the fall, or if there was 'a fall', it was just a one time 'misstep' that didn't effect the nature of man at all. Or if it did, not enough to cause them not to be able to be innocent(perfect), as they were before. What are your scriptures for this? This then is WHY so many have been led to a prayer for salvation, but never repentance. On numerous occasions I have discussed this teaching with others from the system only to be misunderstood and in some instances ridiculed. This doctrine is engrained in the minds of the people for sure.Here I agree with you, no one recites their way into heaven. The idea of the sinners prayer is not in the bible. It is with the HEART one believes unto righteousness - "calling on the Name of the Lord" from the heart, not by following some scripted 'prayer'. Upon asking others to defend their position by explaining the transmission of the Adamic transgression,They were separated from God spiritually, that's why Adam was for the first time afraid of God's presence.(Gen3:8-10) I am usually met with a blank stare or outlandish explanation (in some cases I have been urged to speak with the person’s preacher for clarification). It seems to me like it doesn’t matter how this initial sin is propagated so it makes sense why faithful Church attendees are so shocked to hear me explain the ridiculousness of this un-Biblical doctrine.Romans 5:12 - "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." That was Apostle Paul, not Augustine. The fact of the matter is, regardless of what I can show people from Scripture, once their mind is infected with this teaching it is nearly impossible to awaken them to errors of this message! Sadly, I have yet to meet anyone in my local area who correctly understands that this doctrine of natural sin was not taught in the Patristic era of the Church (research it and be Set Free!). See what Paul said. It’s really unbelievable! “How can so many be blind to this fallacy,” you may wonder as I once did myself. Typically, as I have learned, since Systematic Theology runs the evangelical world today, Bible exegesis are normally traced back to Augustine of Hippo and no further. Thus, the teachers who came before Augustine (first 400 years of the Church) and his opponents (like Pelagius) are usually termed as heretics all too quickly and disregarded as Biblical illiterate. It’s easy to see then why people are quick to put individuals like me who see the errors of Augustine in a similar category. We don't put you in the category of teaching heresy for disagreeing with Augustine, we put you in that category for disregarding what the Apostle Paul being led of inspiration by the Holy Ghost,(and many others). Truly, until the religious Church establishment wakes up to the fact that their precious doctrine of Original Sin is Pagan, they will fail to comprehend the origins of their own religion (Christianity!) in which they profess to be apart of! What blindness! What blindness indeed.
Now I have refuted your doctrine with scripture,.........
of which you didn't use ONE to support your claims.
Fallacy 1: Sin is an inbred disease people are born with. (His contention)
This is the main misconception that necessitates and influences all other Bible teachings within the Church. (Don’t think it doesn’t, it DOES!) Before debating any other theological positions, you must address the subject of man. Many fail to see the importance of correctly dividing choice from nature, but it’s obvious, they are opposites. The idea of an “inbred” nature causing people to sin totally eliminates freewill and in the end provides an excuse for the sinner (my body made me do it!).Please explain the fall? And what died the day Adam and Eve partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? God said - "For in the day you eat from it you will surely die."Gen2:17 By preachers embracing this concept, they automatically eliminate the convicting power of the Holy Spirit and promise people liberty in Christ while are still in bondage to their numerous sins. Talk about a straw man! First you proclaim there is no such thing as 'original sin' - the fall, or if there was 'a fall', it was just a one time 'misstep' that didn't effect the nature of man at all. Or if it did, not enough to cause them not to be able to be innocent(perfect), as they were before. What are your scriptures for this? This then is WHY so many have been led to a prayer for salvation, but never repentance. On numerous occasions I have discussed this teaching with others from the system only to be misunderstood and in some instances ridiculed. This doctrine is engrained in the minds of the people for sure.Here I agree with you, no one recites their way into heaven. The idea of the sinners prayer is not in the bible. It is with the HEART one believes unto righteousness - "calling on the Name of the Lord" from the heart, not by following some scripted 'prayer'. Upon asking others to defend their position by explaining the transmission of the Adamic transgression,They were separated from God spiritually, that's why Adam was for the first time afraid of God's presence.(Gen3:8-10) I am usually met with a blank stare or outlandish explanation (in some cases I have been urged to speak with the person’s preacher for clarification). It seems to me like it doesn’t matter how this initial sin is propagated so it makes sense why faithful Church attendees are so shocked to hear me explain the ridiculousness of this un-Biblical doctrine.Romans 5:12 - "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." That was Apostle Paul, not Augustine. The fact of the matter is, regardless of what I can show people from Scripture, once their mind is infected with this teaching it is nearly impossible to awaken them to errors of this message! Sadly, I have yet to meet anyone in my local area who correctly understands that this doctrine of natural sin was not taught in the Patristic era of the Church (research it and be Set Free!). See what Paul said. It’s really unbelievable! “How can so many be blind to this fallacy,” you may wonder as I once did myself. Typically, as I have learned, since Systematic Theology runs the evangelical world today, Bible exegesis are normally traced back to Augustine of Hippo and no further. Thus, the teachers who came before Augustine (first 400 years of the Church) and his opponents (like Pelagius) are usually termed as heretics all too quickly and disregarded as Biblical illiterate. It’s easy to see then why people are quick to put individuals like me who see the errors of Augustine in a similar category. We don't put you in the category of teaching heresy for disagreeing with Augustine, we put you in that category for disregarding what the Apostle Paul being led of inspiration by the Holy Ghost,(and many others). Truly, until the religious Church establishment wakes up to the fact that their precious doctrine of Original Sin is Pagan, they will fail to comprehend the origins of their own religion (Christianity!) in which they profess to be apart of! What blindness! What blindness indeed.
Now I have refuted your doctrine with scripture,.........
of which you didn't use ONE to support your claims.
B
For the purpose of acknowledging that God is absolute lucidity, here is what the Bible actually explains regarding the OP “Fallacy” premises.
True.
“Therefore, just as through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned…” (Romans 5:12)
True.
…“in Jesus Christ Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation [substitution]… for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God” (Romans 3:25).
True.
“For You are not the God Who delights in wickedness; evil cannot lodge with You… You hate all evil doers” (Psalms 5:4-5)
“…the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience (Ephesians 5:6)
“He [Jesus] was delivered [by God] over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification” (Romans 4:25).
“He [Jesus] Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed” (1 Peter 2:24).
True.
”He [God] made Him [Jesus] who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).
True. The entire doctrine of Justification rests upon the complete obedience and absolute righteousness of our Lord Jesus Christ. THANK YOU, LORD!! Maranatha! ☺
…“This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe” (Romans 3:22).
“Now to Him (God) Who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen” (Jude 1:24-25).
“Being found in appearance as a man, He [Jesus] humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross” (Philippians 2:8).
“For as through the one man's [Adam’s] disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One [Jesus] the many will be made righteous” (Romans 5:19).
True.
“For this reason He [JESUS] is the Mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance” (Hebrews 9:15).
True.
“In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living” (Hebrews 9:16-17).
“Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:1).
Correct.
The OP premise is indeed a fallacy, for the such is NOT Bible doctrine.
“God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” (Romans 6:2)
True.
“Therefore, just as through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned…” (Romans 5:12)
True.
…“in Jesus Christ Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation [substitution]… for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God” (Romans 3:25).
True.
“For You are not the God Who delights in wickedness; evil cannot lodge with You… You hate all evil doers” (Psalms 5:4-5)
“…the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience (Ephesians 5:6)
“He [Jesus] was delivered [by God] over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification” (Romans 4:25).
“He [Jesus] Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed” (1 Peter 2:24).
True.
”He [God] made Him [Jesus] who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).
True. The entire doctrine of Justification rests upon the complete obedience and absolute righteousness of our Lord Jesus Christ. THANK YOU, LORD!! Maranatha! ☺
…“This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe” (Romans 3:22).
“Now to Him (God) Who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen” (Jude 1:24-25).
“Being found in appearance as a man, He [Jesus] humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross” (Philippians 2:8).
“For as through the one man's [Adam’s] disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One [Jesus] the many will be made righteous” (Romans 5:19).
True.
“For this reason He [JESUS] is the Mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance” (Hebrews 9:15).
True.
“In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living” (Hebrews 9:16-17).
“Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:1).
Correct.
The OP premise is indeed a fallacy, for the such is NOT Bible doctrine.
“God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” (Romans 6:2)
Rick, I'll unpack what you said and let the chips fall where they may.
You first response, "Please explain the fall? And what died the day Adam and Eve partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? God said - "For in the day you eat from it you will surely die."Gen2:17"
Nowhere do I deny that Adam and Eve fell, that is YOU saying that I deny that. They both surely did die the moment they partook of the fruit in violation of a direct command of God.
Paul illustrates this death as such...
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Adam's sin (eating the fruit) took occasion by the commandment (don't eat of that fruit) wrought through all manner of concupiscence (good to the eyes, desiring to be wise) wherefore Adam and Eve yielded to the temptation and willfully transgressed and ate the fruit and thus they were slain spiritually.
What is not taught is that some sort of inward corruption was manifested in the flesh which is then passed down via seminal means (Traducianism/Natural Head) or via Divine Imputation (Creationism/Federal Head) to all of Adam's descendents. The Scripture is completely silent on such a doctrine and in fact teaches the direct opposite.
Paul taught that he "was slain" rather than he was "born slain." That is a very big difference! Those who hold to Original Sin teach that men are BORN DEAD as opposed to dying when they first transgress. Those who hold to Original Sin teach that man is born guilty and condemned already. It is a satanic gnostic teaching not found in the pages of scripture.
Sinning affects the nature of the sinner NOT THE NATURE OF THEIR CHILDREN. When you sin it does not corrupt your sperm with some sort of substance which you pass on to your children. That is pure gnostic nonsense. You call me blind because I don't believe in such nonsense.
You then state, "Talk about a straw man! First you proclaim there is no such thing as 'original sin' - the fall, or if there was 'a fall', it was just a one time 'misstep' that didn't effect the nature of man at all. Or if it did, not enough to cause them not to be able to be innocent(perfect), as they were before. What are your scriptures for this? "
The sin of Adam and Eve slew Adam and Eve NOT THEIR CHILDREN. Yes their sin effected all of their progeny with the curse but it did not effect the "constitution" of all humanity and infect them with some sort of substance called sin. Read Genesis 3 and do you see any allusion to some sort of inward corruption that was going to be passed down to their children? No.
The nature of Adam and Eve was affected by their sin not the natures of their children. Nature in the Greek is Phusis and it means growth. You nature is something that develops over time due to habitual practices. Eph 2:3 speaks of those who by nature are children of disobedience and Rom 2:14 speaks of those who by nature do what is right. You are not born with a nature pre-disposed to sin, you are born IGNORANT subject to the passions and desires of the flesh. The fleshly passions ARE NOT EVIL they are natural. Evil is only when one submits to the passions in disregard to righteousness. That is what the Bible clearly teaches.
Augustine read the doctrine of inborn corruption into the text because he was an adherent to the philosophy of Manichaean Gnosticism which taught that the flesh was stained with this substance of sin which was passed down through the male seed. The Gnostics viewed the flesh as evil because they taught that that matter trapped the soul and thus while the soul could bear light it was imprisoned in the body. Thus the Gnostics disconnected the outward deeds from the true state of the soul. The modern gospel is firmly built on the foundation of this doctrine and people accuse me of being prideful for pointing it out and refuting it.
Original Sin completely redefines the nature of man because it puts sin in the flesh as opposed to being a moral choice wrought via the will. Hence actual sin is necessitated by the inborn sin nature and men are thus deemed VICTIMS OF THE SIN DISEASE instead of CRIMINALS WHO WILLFULLY REBELLED. This foundation redefines the entire Gospel and it is Satan's masterpiece because he can have his "minsters who appear righteous" who are the "wolves who look like lambs" teaching a doctrine which will damn people to hell yet proclaim the divinity of Jesus, proclaim the cross, etc. and thus sound like they are preaching the truth.
Satan is a masterful deceiver and he is underestimated by most people. Satan has been able to pervert the very foundation of repentance and faith and he has done so because Satan KNOWS that genuine repentance and faith how a sinner may access the cross of Jesus Christ and be cleansed by the blood.
You quote above is actually completely unrelated to what I am talking about and proves you do not understand me at all. "Not enough to cause them not to be able to be innocent (perfect) as they were before." What are you talking about? I never claimed any such thing. Adam and Eve were condemned when they sinned, they died to God, they defiled themselves with sin. They could not undo what they had done, only by the grace of God could they be saved from such a state that they fell into. Another example of how people cannot grasp what I am saying and formulate some erroneous interpretation in their mind which in turn they tear down.
You then stated this...
Upon asking others to defend their position by explaining the transmission of the Adamic transgression,They were separated from God spiritually, that's why Adam was for the first time afraid of God's presence.(Gen3:8-10)
The first sentence (from the article) is talking about the TRANSMISSION OF ADAMIC TRANSGRESSION. You respond talking about how Adam was separated from God, was ashamed, and hid. Your comment is correct but is completely unrelated to what you responded to.
You then state...
It seems to me like it doesn’t matter how this initial sin is propagated so it makes sense why faithful Church attendees are so shocked to hear me explain the ridiculousness of this un-Biblical doctrine.Romans 5:12 - "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." That was Apostle Paul, not Augustine.
Romans 5:12 explicitly states that DEATH was passed upon all men. It does not say that SIN was passed upon all men. Rom 5:12 also explicitly states that DEATH was passed upon all men BECAUSE ALL HAVE SINNED.
Rom 5:12 is speaking of how spiritual death is the result of sin and that all men have followed in Adam's footsteps. It is not teaching that some sort of inborn depravity was passed down in the substance of the flesh. Yes Augustine interpreted it that way because he used the Latin Vulgate which says "all sinned in Adam" which what he used to support his belief that all the souls of mankind were present in Adam and thus when Adam sinned he infected all the souls at the same time. Thus this infection is passed down from father to son and this doctrine was called Traducianism or the Natural Head Theory. Augustine was in error and the Bible does not teach this gnostic nonsense.
The early church did not teach this nonsense. You won't find anyone in the first few hundred years of the church teaching this. You will find some early Father's like Tertullian hinting at a vice of origin but no-one taught that sin was a substance of the flesh nor was it taught that babies were born sinful. If you had of taught that back then you would have been excommunicated for sure.
You then stated...
We don't put you in the category of teaching heresy for disagreeing with Augustine, we put you in that category for disregarding what the Apostle Paul being led of inspiration by the Holy Ghost,(and many others).
You can put me in any category you like. The truth has never been well accepted throughout history. I don't deny Paul at all, I don't read into Paul's writings erroneous gnostic teachings and call it Christianity.
Sin is a choice.
Sin is moral.
Sin IS NOT a disease.
Sin IS NOT a substance of the flesh.
You first response, "Please explain the fall? And what died the day Adam and Eve partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? God said - "For in the day you eat from it you will surely die."Gen2:17"
Nowhere do I deny that Adam and Eve fell, that is YOU saying that I deny that. They both surely did die the moment they partook of the fruit in violation of a direct command of God.
Paul illustrates this death as such...
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Adam's sin (eating the fruit) took occasion by the commandment (don't eat of that fruit) wrought through all manner of concupiscence (good to the eyes, desiring to be wise) wherefore Adam and Eve yielded to the temptation and willfully transgressed and ate the fruit and thus they were slain spiritually.
What is not taught is that some sort of inward corruption was manifested in the flesh which is then passed down via seminal means (Traducianism/Natural Head) or via Divine Imputation (Creationism/Federal Head) to all of Adam's descendents. The Scripture is completely silent on such a doctrine and in fact teaches the direct opposite.
Paul taught that he "was slain" rather than he was "born slain." That is a very big difference! Those who hold to Original Sin teach that men are BORN DEAD as opposed to dying when they first transgress. Those who hold to Original Sin teach that man is born guilty and condemned already. It is a satanic gnostic teaching not found in the pages of scripture.
Sinning affects the nature of the sinner NOT THE NATURE OF THEIR CHILDREN. When you sin it does not corrupt your sperm with some sort of substance which you pass on to your children. That is pure gnostic nonsense. You call me blind because I don't believe in such nonsense.
You then state, "Talk about a straw man! First you proclaim there is no such thing as 'original sin' - the fall, or if there was 'a fall', it was just a one time 'misstep' that didn't effect the nature of man at all. Or if it did, not enough to cause them not to be able to be innocent(perfect), as they were before. What are your scriptures for this? "
The sin of Adam and Eve slew Adam and Eve NOT THEIR CHILDREN. Yes their sin effected all of their progeny with the curse but it did not effect the "constitution" of all humanity and infect them with some sort of substance called sin. Read Genesis 3 and do you see any allusion to some sort of inward corruption that was going to be passed down to their children? No.
The nature of Adam and Eve was affected by their sin not the natures of their children. Nature in the Greek is Phusis and it means growth. You nature is something that develops over time due to habitual practices. Eph 2:3 speaks of those who by nature are children of disobedience and Rom 2:14 speaks of those who by nature do what is right. You are not born with a nature pre-disposed to sin, you are born IGNORANT subject to the passions and desires of the flesh. The fleshly passions ARE NOT EVIL they are natural. Evil is only when one submits to the passions in disregard to righteousness. That is what the Bible clearly teaches.
Augustine read the doctrine of inborn corruption into the text because he was an adherent to the philosophy of Manichaean Gnosticism which taught that the flesh was stained with this substance of sin which was passed down through the male seed. The Gnostics viewed the flesh as evil because they taught that that matter trapped the soul and thus while the soul could bear light it was imprisoned in the body. Thus the Gnostics disconnected the outward deeds from the true state of the soul. The modern gospel is firmly built on the foundation of this doctrine and people accuse me of being prideful for pointing it out and refuting it.
Original Sin completely redefines the nature of man because it puts sin in the flesh as opposed to being a moral choice wrought via the will. Hence actual sin is necessitated by the inborn sin nature and men are thus deemed VICTIMS OF THE SIN DISEASE instead of CRIMINALS WHO WILLFULLY REBELLED. This foundation redefines the entire Gospel and it is Satan's masterpiece because he can have his "minsters who appear righteous" who are the "wolves who look like lambs" teaching a doctrine which will damn people to hell yet proclaim the divinity of Jesus, proclaim the cross, etc. and thus sound like they are preaching the truth.
Satan is a masterful deceiver and he is underestimated by most people. Satan has been able to pervert the very foundation of repentance and faith and he has done so because Satan KNOWS that genuine repentance and faith how a sinner may access the cross of Jesus Christ and be cleansed by the blood.
You quote above is actually completely unrelated to what I am talking about and proves you do not understand me at all. "Not enough to cause them not to be able to be innocent (perfect) as they were before." What are you talking about? I never claimed any such thing. Adam and Eve were condemned when they sinned, they died to God, they defiled themselves with sin. They could not undo what they had done, only by the grace of God could they be saved from such a state that they fell into. Another example of how people cannot grasp what I am saying and formulate some erroneous interpretation in their mind which in turn they tear down.
You then stated this...
Upon asking others to defend their position by explaining the transmission of the Adamic transgression,They were separated from God spiritually, that's why Adam was for the first time afraid of God's presence.(Gen3:8-10)
The first sentence (from the article) is talking about the TRANSMISSION OF ADAMIC TRANSGRESSION. You respond talking about how Adam was separated from God, was ashamed, and hid. Your comment is correct but is completely unrelated to what you responded to.
You then state...
It seems to me like it doesn’t matter how this initial sin is propagated so it makes sense why faithful Church attendees are so shocked to hear me explain the ridiculousness of this un-Biblical doctrine.Romans 5:12 - "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." That was Apostle Paul, not Augustine.
Romans 5:12 explicitly states that DEATH was passed upon all men. It does not say that SIN was passed upon all men. Rom 5:12 also explicitly states that DEATH was passed upon all men BECAUSE ALL HAVE SINNED.
Rom 5:12 is speaking of how spiritual death is the result of sin and that all men have followed in Adam's footsteps. It is not teaching that some sort of inborn depravity was passed down in the substance of the flesh. Yes Augustine interpreted it that way because he used the Latin Vulgate which says "all sinned in Adam" which what he used to support his belief that all the souls of mankind were present in Adam and thus when Adam sinned he infected all the souls at the same time. Thus this infection is passed down from father to son and this doctrine was called Traducianism or the Natural Head Theory. Augustine was in error and the Bible does not teach this gnostic nonsense.
The early church did not teach this nonsense. You won't find anyone in the first few hundred years of the church teaching this. You will find some early Father's like Tertullian hinting at a vice of origin but no-one taught that sin was a substance of the flesh nor was it taught that babies were born sinful. If you had of taught that back then you would have been excommunicated for sure.
You then stated...
We don't put you in the category of teaching heresy for disagreeing with Augustine, we put you in that category for disregarding what the Apostle Paul being led of inspiration by the Holy Ghost,(and many others).
You can put me in any category you like. The truth has never been well accepted throughout history. I don't deny Paul at all, I don't read into Paul's writings erroneous gnostic teachings and call it Christianity.
Sin is a choice.
Sin is moral.
Sin IS NOT a disease.
Sin IS NOT a substance of the flesh.
Skinski said - Romans 5:12 explicitly states that DEATH was passed upon all men. It does not say that SIN was passed upon all men. Rom 5:12 also explicitly states that DEATH was passed upon all men BECAUSE ALL HAVE SINNED.
Romans 5:12 - "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."
by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin;
Sin = Spiritual death; and spiritual death = sin. You can't separate them to prove a doctrine.
Sin and therefore death entered the world because of Adam, Paul and the Holy Spirit plainly teach this.
This is why the last enemy to be destroyed is death. I Cor. 15:26
It us destroyed by the same one that lived a perfect life. -
I Corinthians 15:21-28
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
See how the same person who was compared to Adam is sinless AND destroyed death?
Who's death? Just His? Or all who believe on Him?
Spiritual death and sin are synonymous.
Romans 5:12 - "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."
by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin;
Sin = Spiritual death; and spiritual death = sin. You can't separate them to prove a doctrine.
Sin and therefore death entered the world because of Adam, Paul and the Holy Spirit plainly teach this.
This is why the last enemy to be destroyed is death. I Cor. 15:26
It us destroyed by the same one that lived a perfect life. -
I Corinthians 15:21-28
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
See how the same person who was compared to Adam is sinless AND destroyed death?
Who's death? Just His? Or all who believe on Him?
Spiritual death and sin are synonymous.
Rom 5:12 is speaking of how spiritual death is the result of sin and that all men have followed in Adam's footsteps. It is not teaching that some sort of inborn depravity was passed down in the substance of the flesh.
Of course it isn't.
"My words are Spirit, and they are Life"
It's not an organ in your fleshly body that causes you to sin, it is a sin nature(because of the fall).
"No man can serve two masters, for he will hate the one and cleave to the other; or else he will hold to the one and despise the other; no
one can serve God and mammon."
Do you think Jesus is talking about money? Or serving appetite? Only is it pertains to the sin nature.
It is the fallen nature that causes mankind to rebel, not some sort of appetite within his constitution.
See - "you cannot serve two masters".......who are the masters?
The masters are well outside our physical bodies(flesh).
Of course it isn't.
"My words are Spirit, and they are Life"
It's not an organ in your fleshly body that causes you to sin, it is a sin nature(because of the fall).
"No man can serve two masters, for he will hate the one and cleave to the other; or else he will hold to the one and despise the other; no
one can serve God and mammon."
Do you think Jesus is talking about money? Or serving appetite? Only is it pertains to the sin nature.
It is the fallen nature that causes mankind to rebel, not some sort of appetite within his constitution.
See - "you cannot serve two masters".......who are the masters?
The masters are well outside our physical bodies(flesh).
Why highlight only the first part of 1Cor 15:22? If ALL ARE BORN DEAD in Adam then ALL MUST BE MADE ALIVE in Christ hence universal salvation. You cannot use one verse to support that Adam made all men sinners by default (apart from free-will) and then deny that all shall be made alive in Christ hence universal salvation. Just another inconsistency held by those who teach Original Sin.
Yes by one man sin entered the world and then death by sin (wages of sin is death). Death then passed upon all men because all men sinned. Again I state that the text does not say that sin was passed upon all men, it states that "death was passed upon all men" and that the reason it was passed upon all men was not because Adam sinned but rather that ALL MEN sinned. ALL MEN have followed in the example of Adam and have willfully transgressed either their conscience (Rom 5:14) or a direct command of God.
Rom 5:12-21 is speaking of EXAMPLE and not about the transmission of some sort of substance in the flesh called sin.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
The bible teaches otherwise. This is what causes people to sin...
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Read it again as it is pretty clear. This is what happened to Eve...
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Eve was drawn away by the lusts of the flesh. Eve didn't need some sort of sin nature to make her sin and neither do you.
The doctrine of being "born with a sin nature" is an EXCUSE for sin. The blame is shifted from personal culpability to how one was born. Thus sinners are redefined to be victims instead of criminals.
Thus the victim approaches God and apologises for their "sinful condition" which was not their fault. What Satan has done by introducing this teaching is to completely undermine genuine repentance. No longer do sinners have to forsake their rebellion in repentance, instead they just confess they are rebels and wait on God to change them.
Here is another Bible verse which completely contradicts this foolishness of Original Sin.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Original Sin teaches that all men bear the iniquity of Adam. If course to those who are completely deceived and emotionally attached to this heretical doctrine it does not appear to matter what the Bible states.
Who are the two masters? Paul answers that.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Read it again as it is pretty clear. This is what happened to Eve...
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Eve was drawn away by the lusts of the flesh. Eve didn't need some sort of sin nature to make her sin and neither do you.
The doctrine of being "born with a sin nature" is an EXCUSE for sin. The blame is shifted from personal culpability to how one was born. Thus sinners are redefined to be victims instead of criminals.
Thus the victim approaches God and apologises for their "sinful condition" which was not their fault. What Satan has done by introducing this teaching is to completely undermine genuine repentance. No longer do sinners have to forsake their rebellion in repentance, instead they just confess they are rebels and wait on God to change them.
Here is another Bible verse which completely contradicts this foolishness of Original Sin.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Original Sin teaches that all men bear the iniquity of Adam. If course to those who are completely deceived and emotionally attached to this heretical doctrine it does not appear to matter what the Bible states.
Who are the two masters? Paul answers that.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
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Do we serve masters?
Are we made to serve?
The sin is way past what we contrive to do.
'Sin' is falling short, no?
Who are you to say you don't fall short of God's perfect will for you?
Who am I to say I am perfectly carrying out God's plan for my life?
He could want me doing something more expedient than sitting here arguing doctrine with you.
He might want you doing something more edifying to the body than this, propagating your 'perfectionist' doctrine.
He might have wanted us to be somewhere in the dark jungles, missionaries for headhunters, who knows?
Only one man did His perfect will - "For He always performs My will" - and that is Jesus Christ.
So the sin(falling short) goes much deeper than outwardly obeying (in our own little worlds).
This, besides many others, is the reason we can't claim perfect obedience.
Only one ever has obeyed the voice of the Father perfectly.
This is why perfectionism can't save you......you see, it falls short of the perfect will of God the Father.
Are we made to serve?
The sin is way past what we contrive to do.
'Sin' is falling short, no?
Who are you to say you don't fall short of God's perfect will for you?
Who am I to say I am perfectly carrying out God's plan for my life?
He could want me doing something more expedient than sitting here arguing doctrine with you.
He might want you doing something more edifying to the body than this, propagating your 'perfectionist' doctrine.
He might have wanted us to be somewhere in the dark jungles, missionaries for headhunters, who knows?
Only one man did His perfect will - "For He always performs My will" - and that is Jesus Christ.
So the sin(falling short) goes much deeper than outwardly obeying (in our own little worlds).
This, besides many others, is the reason we can't claim perfect obedience.
Only one ever has obeyed the voice of the Father perfectly.
This is why perfectionism can't save you......you see, it falls short of the perfect will of God the Father.
Strawman. I never claimed "perfection" saved you.
In fact I deny the teaching of "sinless perfection."
You appear just like most of the others who concoct a fiction in your mind by redefining what I explicitly state and go on to attack the concocted fiction. Why not SPECIFICALLY address my objections to your doctrine?
In fact I deny the teaching of "sinless perfection."
You appear just like most of the others who concoct a fiction in your mind by redefining what I explicitly state and go on to attack the concocted fiction. Why not SPECIFICALLY address my objections to your doctrine?
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
You like certain scriptures......ones that make you feel comfortable in your doctrine.
Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. Exodus 34:7and
The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. Numbers 14:18
There's my two to your one. Better start looking for context 'ey; before using scripture to bolster your faulty doctrine.
You like certain scriptures......ones that make you feel comfortable in your doctrine.
Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. Exodus 34:7and
The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. Numbers 14:18
There's my two to your one. Better start looking for context 'ey; before using scripture to bolster your faulty doctrine.
B
The key words here are: "in Christ."
All evil doers, born dead in Adam, refusing to believe in Jesus Christ are NOT "in Christ."
All lukewarm and apostate "Christians," also born dead in Adam, are also NOT "in Christ."
Those "in Christ" are precisely all sinners born dead in Adam who have come to repentance, seeking God's face daily by following Jesus the rest of their lives. These are the ones "made alive in Christ," "for God is God of the living, not of the dead."
All evil doers, born dead in Adam, refusing to believe in Jesus Christ are NOT "in Christ."
All lukewarm and apostate "Christians," also born dead in Adam, are also NOT "in Christ."
Those "in Christ" are precisely all sinners born dead in Adam who have come to repentance, seeking God's face daily by following Jesus the rest of their lives. These are the ones "made alive in Christ," "for God is God of the living, not of the dead."