Fallacies of the Present Day Church
- Thread starter Skinski7
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
C
I will give the first statement
God the Father send the Word to become flesh so that through Him salvation could be by faith. The Word came and took flesh upon Himself and was named Jesus Christ (Jehovah is Salvation and He is our Savior). He preached that message He was sent to preach. He died. He rose. He returned to Heaven. He received His eternal throne back. He will return once again with judgment. He will hand back all things to the Father. The Father's will would have been completed: a return to the fellowship that was lost in Eden.
God the Father send the Word to become flesh so that through Him salvation could be by faith. The Word came and took flesh upon Himself and was named Jesus Christ (Jehovah is Salvation and He is our Savior). He preached that message He was sent to preach. He died. He rose. He returned to Heaven. He received His eternal throne back. He will return once again with judgment. He will hand back all things to the Father. The Father's will would have been completed: a return to the fellowship that was lost in Eden.
W
Some Christians like to reserve judging other Christians til they get the entirety of a belief that others think we should be pointing out. In reading thru this thread some posts are not very specific, & others are. About 12 pgs ago I thought for one side to confess the sins they were referring to that they still commit while saved, so that the other side would see that these people could be Christians, not heretics. No one did get that specific & the next poster told me to confess.
Ok, I'm saved. I believe Jesus is the Son of God & all in the Bible is infallible=( Making it short) I confess. I have little patience with criminals who are not repenting. I have little patience with tresspassers on my property, & the drunken neighbor who is always telling me what to do on my property, how to trim the shrubs the style she prefers, etc. Sometimes I get angry & have a hard time letting those anger feelings pass. I think a better Christian could handle these people better than I do & not be angry about it. Sometimes I'm impatient with my husband or children. I do think these are sins & repent. I am improving. I don't lie or covet or envy,steal,murder,take the Lord's name in vain. I was saved many yrs ago but I still pray & repent of these sins I still commit after i was saved.
On the other side of the coin are the original thread starter & his agreeers, who I THINK are saying that If I was already saved like I think I was, then I'm going to hell now anyway there is no hope for me. Once you sin after being saved u cannot be saved again.
I WAS SAVED BEFORE the sins I just confessed, so I disagree with that theory.
So the supposed accused heretics, on the other side, would say that it's ok for me to keep sinning because anything I do after I'm saved is covered by Jesus, correct? And also that if I'm not already really saved, that if I'm "elected or predestined without foreknowledge " MAYBE I will end up being saved, maybe I'm going to hell cause Jesus didn't die for everyone's sins, maybe not mine. But either way it's ok to sin if you are chosen/elected. I know some with this theory believe predestination is With foreknowledge which I agree WITH foreknowledge, but the rest of the theology still ends up saying it's ok to keep sinning.
I can't agree with either of these scenarios. It is not ok to keep sinning.I'm throwing in a 3rd version here.
None of us is perfect, whether or not u claim chosen, elected ,predestined or you're just plain old "saved", born again. If you think you arn't saved, I'm sorry for ya, No matter your belief.
I have confidence in & faith in the fact that I am now saved. It is not my "belief", I FEEL my salvation from God by Jesus' work on the cross. Some things are beliefs. Other things are facts. It is a fact I am saved, not my belief. God gave me this knowledge. I am saved now.
Ok, I'm saved. I believe Jesus is the Son of God & all in the Bible is infallible=( Making it short) I confess. I have little patience with criminals who are not repenting. I have little patience with tresspassers on my property, & the drunken neighbor who is always telling me what to do on my property, how to trim the shrubs the style she prefers, etc. Sometimes I get angry & have a hard time letting those anger feelings pass. I think a better Christian could handle these people better than I do & not be angry about it. Sometimes I'm impatient with my husband or children. I do think these are sins & repent. I am improving. I don't lie or covet or envy,steal,murder,take the Lord's name in vain. I was saved many yrs ago but I still pray & repent of these sins I still commit after i was saved.
On the other side of the coin are the original thread starter & his agreeers, who I THINK are saying that If I was already saved like I think I was, then I'm going to hell now anyway there is no hope for me. Once you sin after being saved u cannot be saved again.
I WAS SAVED BEFORE the sins I just confessed, so I disagree with that theory.
So the supposed accused heretics, on the other side, would say that it's ok for me to keep sinning because anything I do after I'm saved is covered by Jesus, correct? And also that if I'm not already really saved, that if I'm "elected or predestined without foreknowledge " MAYBE I will end up being saved, maybe I'm going to hell cause Jesus didn't die for everyone's sins, maybe not mine. But either way it's ok to sin if you are chosen/elected. I know some with this theory believe predestination is With foreknowledge which I agree WITH foreknowledge, but the rest of the theology still ends up saying it's ok to keep sinning.
I can't agree with either of these scenarios. It is not ok to keep sinning.I'm throwing in a 3rd version here.
None of us is perfect, whether or not u claim chosen, elected ,predestined or you're just plain old "saved", born again. If you think you arn't saved, I'm sorry for ya, No matter your belief.
I have confidence in & faith in the fact that I am now saved. It is not my "belief", I FEEL my salvation from God by Jesus' work on the cross. Some things are beliefs. Other things are facts. It is a fact I am saved, not my belief. God gave me this knowledge. I am saved now.
All this controversy could be cleared if we go back to the original post. What are the fallacies of the present day church?
The present day church is thinking backwards. The NT was written to people who knew all about God before Christ and had to learn the changes that Christ made. We are reading the changes before we learn what it changed from. Of course, we are going to get it wrong.
What did Christ improve? Christ is God’s son, Christ explains God. What are the principles and ways of God that Christ shows us? What does God see as sin? How does forgiveness work? What of God as the OT explains Him is now obsolete?
It takes knowledge of God the Father to know the answer to these questions. The scripture explaining the change Christ made is not enough to give us that.
The present day church is thinking backwards. The NT was written to people who knew all about God before Christ and had to learn the changes that Christ made. We are reading the changes before we learn what it changed from. Of course, we are going to get it wrong.
What did Christ improve? Christ is God’s son, Christ explains God. What are the principles and ways of God that Christ shows us? What does God see as sin? How does forgiveness work? What of God as the OT explains Him is now obsolete?
It takes knowledge of God the Father to know the answer to these questions. The scripture explaining the change Christ made is not enough to give us that.
Jesus was the only begotten Son of the Father. In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God. The Word was made flesh and dwelt among men.
Jesus Christ was a teacher of righteousness who preached a pure message. He taught that sinners must repent and forsake their wicked ways and turn back to God. Jesus taught that it was through abiding in Him that one can produce righteousness because He is the light that lighteth every man that comes into the word and it is only through Him that we can come to the Father.
Jesus also offered Himself on behalf of sinners to God as a spotless lamb whereby through His shed blood past transgressions can be purged from the record of sinners. Jesus also lived and died as an example that we can share in His sufferings and die with Him. Jesus rose again on the third day proving that He had the power over death that we too may know that we may be raised up to eternal life in Him.
Jesus came in the flesh and was tempted in all points as we are yet He never one time yielded to sin. Thus Jesus proved that sin can be overcome in the flesh when men are led by the Spirit.
We are to walk as He walked and yield to all His instructions. If we do that we will live, if we do it not we will perish.
Jesus taught that FEW were going to be saved who professed His name but that a vast multitude who professed His name would be rejected. Jesus taught that the way to life is narrow and difficult and this is why we must make great effort to remain steadfast in the faith to the end. His burden is light and His commands are not grevious but we must pick up our cross, deny ourselves and follow Him.
In other words we have to lose our worldly lives that we may live spiritual lives.
Jesus did not come to save people IN their sins. Jesus came to save people FROM their sin. Those who are truly in Christ are no longer under the dominion of sin, they have been set free from the corruption that is in the world through lust through the great and precious promises given to us and via the dynamic of us dying with Him in a genuine broken repentance whereby our old man is crucified with Him that we may walk in purity, having been raised up by the power of God, whereby we love God and our neighbour from the heart and thus we go and sin no more!
Jesus Christ was a teacher of righteousness who preached a pure message. He taught that sinners must repent and forsake their wicked ways and turn back to God. Jesus taught that it was through abiding in Him that one can produce righteousness because He is the light that lighteth every man that comes into the word and it is only through Him that we can come to the Father.
Jesus also offered Himself on behalf of sinners to God as a spotless lamb whereby through His shed blood past transgressions can be purged from the record of sinners. Jesus also lived and died as an example that we can share in His sufferings and die with Him. Jesus rose again on the third day proving that He had the power over death that we too may know that we may be raised up to eternal life in Him.
Jesus came in the flesh and was tempted in all points as we are yet He never one time yielded to sin. Thus Jesus proved that sin can be overcome in the flesh when men are led by the Spirit.
We are to walk as He walked and yield to all His instructions. If we do that we will live, if we do it not we will perish.
Jesus taught that FEW were going to be saved who professed His name but that a vast multitude who professed His name would be rejected. Jesus taught that the way to life is narrow and difficult and this is why we must make great effort to remain steadfast in the faith to the end. His burden is light and His commands are not grevious but we must pick up our cross, deny ourselves and follow Him.
In other words we have to lose our worldly lives that we may live spiritual lives.
Jesus did not come to save people IN their sins. Jesus came to save people FROM their sin. Those who are truly in Christ are no longer under the dominion of sin, they have been set free from the corruption that is in the world through lust through the great and precious promises given to us and via the dynamic of us dying with Him in a genuine broken repentance whereby our old man is crucified with Him that we may walk in purity, having been raised up by the power of God, whereby we love God and our neighbour from the heart and thus we go and sin no more!
Willful sin is out of the question for a real Christian for it reveals a defiled heart within which can only be rectified through the first works of a broken repentance and faith whereby one can approach Godseeking mercy, having been purged of rebellion.
Sins committed in ignorance are not rooted in a defiled heart but are similar in practice as to how a young child engages in behaviour which is wrong and needs correction but is done through a lack of understanding. We have an advocate for these kinds of shortcomings or sins.
Willful immorality like porn watching, adultery, fornication, drunkenness, hatred, murder, idolatry etc. all must cease in genuine repentance.
A husband committing adultery on his wife cannot be reconciled while still engaged in the adulterous relationship. The adulterous relationship must be completely forsaken first through the husband coming to his senses in repentance.
It is the same for a sinner who is committing adultery with the world. They must forsake worldliness in repentance before they can be reconciled to God. This is why James taught that one must lay aside all known sin before one can receive the implanted word. It is also why Paul taught this process as the crucifixion of the flesh with its passions and desires.
Modern Christianity denies the cessation of willful sin in repentance and thus presents the "Finished Work of Christ" as a cloak for ongoing rebellion. That is the deception which people need to come to terms with lest they be swallowed up by it.
C
Except for what is said in the last statement (in that it is all inclusive), I see that you speak Truth as you are led to see it in Scripture. You have Christ as your foundation and it is His doctrine you speak of.
To all,
So, in the end, we are all still brothers and sisters in Christ. We only have doctrinal differences. To those from a faith of head knowledge, we proclaim God alive and faith must be active. Those from works, will proclaim faith alone without works. Those of us from deliberate sin, will proclaim obedeince. The Word of God is indeed a lively thing and speaks to each individual as to what he is being delivered from. If, as the Hioly Spiirit, we point to Christ and Christ alone, then perhaps we should let each brother and sister procliam their deliverance and they who are lead to a saint will hear that message. Remember, birds of the same feather flocks together. And to that flock, we proclaim Christ as Savior from that flock. Let us not tear down another's house, seeing that it will be the Fire which shall test it Himself.
In God we trust with out souls,
C. Fultz 3
U
Maybe I'd better understand if you could give me a few examples of what a sin in ignorance might look like ? It appears that the "really bad ones" have been addressed in your post. Could you list a few of the sins that are still forgivable by God after salvation ? Thanks in advance. And was the prodical son only guilty of sins of ignorance ?
We are not all brothers and sisters in Christ. Those who teach that one can continue in known sin and be in a justified state at the same time are teaching a doctrine of demons.
Truth and error do not mix and we are not have any fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness but rather we are to expose them.
Millions of people are being led to hell by the multitudes of false teachers who stand in the pulpits today who refuse to warn their congregations about sin.
When I say that "Modern Christianity Preaches a Lie" it is a general statement which encompasses practically 99% of churches. I don't claim that lightly for I have communicated with 100s of pastors whom have told me that one can be engaged in porn watching or child molestation and be in a justified state at the very same time. This is what they plainly teach when their doctrinal message is stripped of all the fancy rhetoric.
I encourage people to pick a random town in the U.S.A. Put together a list of all the churches in the town. Then email each pastor and ask them if a person who is addicted to pornography must forsake that sin and stop viewing pornography BEFORE God will forgive them.
You will be hard pressed to find a single pastor who will tell you that YES that sin MUST STOP. Their doctrinal fallacies force them to believe that one can be saved and still engaged in that sin.
This is a strong delusion which almost universally has all who profess the name of Christ in its clutches. People need to awaken to that fact.
The apostasy goes deeper than most people can fathom in their wildest imaginations.
Truth and error do not mix and we are not have any fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness but rather we are to expose them.
Millions of people are being led to hell by the multitudes of false teachers who stand in the pulpits today who refuse to warn their congregations about sin.
When I say that "Modern Christianity Preaches a Lie" it is a general statement which encompasses practically 99% of churches. I don't claim that lightly for I have communicated with 100s of pastors whom have told me that one can be engaged in porn watching or child molestation and be in a justified state at the very same time. This is what they plainly teach when their doctrinal message is stripped of all the fancy rhetoric.
I encourage people to pick a random town in the U.S.A. Put together a list of all the churches in the town. Then email each pastor and ask them if a person who is addicted to pornography must forsake that sin and stop viewing pornography BEFORE God will forgive them.
You will be hard pressed to find a single pastor who will tell you that YES that sin MUST STOP. Their doctrinal fallacies force them to believe that one can be saved and still engaged in that sin.
This is a strong delusion which almost universally has all who profess the name of Christ in its clutches. People need to awaken to that fact.
The apostasy goes deeper than most people can fathom in their wildest imaginations.
My words are plain.
Many abuse the term "habitual" to excuse "occasional" rebellion. Both habitual and occasional rebellion are out of the question for a Christian. He who sins is of the devil, whether that sin be once a year or once a week it does not matter.
It took ONE SIN to put Adam under condemnation. It is no different today. Grace is not a cloak for ongoing rebellion. The rebellion stops completely in repentance otherwise the repentance was not real.
Unless a grain of wheat fall to the ground and die it abideth alone. Yet if it die then it will bear much fruit. A sinner MUST DIE TO SELF in repentance that they may then be raised up by the power of God to newness of life. God does not raise rebels to newness of life. The rebellion must first be purged in repentance where the axe is laid to the root.
Many abuse the term "habitual" to excuse "occasional" rebellion. Both habitual and occasional rebellion are out of the question for a Christian. He who sins is of the devil, whether that sin be once a year or once a week it does not matter.
It took ONE SIN to put Adam under condemnation. It is no different today. Grace is not a cloak for ongoing rebellion. The rebellion stops completely in repentance otherwise the repentance was not real.
Unless a grain of wheat fall to the ground and die it abideth alone. Yet if it die then it will bear much fruit. A sinner MUST DIE TO SELF in repentance that they may then be raised up by the power of God to newness of life. God does not raise rebels to newness of life. The rebellion must first be purged in repentance where the axe is laid to the root.
C
I speak of those who have Christ as their Savior when I say we are brothers and sisters. And as long as they (whoever) have Him as their foundation, then we are brothes and sisters. Trust me, there are many who say they can live in deliberate sin, and the message you speak is spoken the them. Of this, I say, 'Keep preaching Christ.'
All I wish to exhort to you in your work, being all conclusive will deafen even the most humble of spirits.
All I wish to exhort to you in your work, being all conclusive will deafen even the most humble of spirits.
The prodigal son was dead to the father in rebellion. He had to come to his senses, forsake the pig pen and return to the father. It was only when he did that that the father came out to meet him and restored him.
A sin of ignorance might be when a Christian makes too quick a judgment about something or someone due to their passion. Perhaps they fall for some sort of error and need correction. Perhaps they act carelessly when doing some task because their mind is on other things. Things of that nature. Definitely not sins of gratifying the flesh in disobedience to God.
A sin of ignorance might be when a Christian makes too quick a judgment about something or someone due to their passion. Perhaps they fall for some sort of error and need correction. Perhaps they act carelessly when doing some task because their mind is on other things. Things of that nature. Definitely not sins of gratifying the flesh in disobedience to God.
W
Finally. I figured this thread was more about sins of the flesh, but no one said before. There are scriptures which describe sins of the flesh as being deadly.
But I believe the other side of the debate lumps all sin the same. I ususally don't debate theology but I like to understand everyone else's theology.
But I believe the other side of the debate lumps all sin the same. I ususally don't debate theology but I like to understand everyone else's theology.
E
And it takes one sin to continue to place us under condemnation. You evidently do not believe this Because your "one sin" does not cause you to be cast out. But other peoples "one sin" cast them out, because they may happen to have more than you.
Who dies and made you God that you can judge others? And who declared to you that you were more righteous and worthy than others, when according to scripture NO ONE CAN BE WORTHY. Are you ever going to humble yourself and admit this?
If one is condemning, then what does it matter how many ones one may have? What is the cut off between to many "ones" and you will be cast out, And just enough ones to prevent you from being cast out. And oh by the way, Who shed your blood so any of these
nes: can be forgiven, since you evidently believe only past sins are forgiven?
Who dies and made you God that you can judge others? And who declared to you that you were more righteous and worthy than others, when according to scripture NO ONE CAN BE WORTHY. Are you ever going to humble yourself and admit this?
If one is condemning, then what does it matter how many ones one may have? What is the cut off between to many "ones" and you will be cast out, And just enough ones to prevent you from being cast out. And oh by the way, Who shed your blood so any of these
nes: can be forgiven, since you evidently believe only past sins are forgiven?
And it takes one sin to continue to place us under condemnation. You evidently do not believe this Because your "one sin" does not cause you to be cast out. But other peoples "one sin" cast them out, because they may happen to have more than you.
Who dies and made you God that you can judge others? And who declared to you that you were more righteous and worthy than others, when according to scripture NO ONE CAN BE WORTHY. Are you ever going to humble yourself and admit this?
If one is condemning, then what does it matter how many ones one may have? What is the cut off between to many "ones" and you will be cast out, And just enough ones to prevent you from being cast out. And oh by the way, Who shed your blood so any of thesenes: can be forgiven, since you evidently believe only past sins are forgiven?
Who dies and made you God that you can judge others? And who declared to you that you were more righteous and worthy than others, when according to scripture NO ONE CAN BE WORTHY. Are you ever going to humble yourself and admit this?
If one is condemning, then what does it matter how many ones one may have? What is the cut off between to many "ones" and you will be cast out, And just enough ones to prevent you from being cast out. And oh by the way, Who shed your blood so any of these
nes: can be forgiven, since you evidently believe only past sins are forgiven?
If we sin willfully after coming to a knowledge of the truth and having been sanctified by the blood then no sacrifice remains but only a fearful expectation of judgment. That is what the Bible plainly teaches.
An individual either forsake all their rebellion or they don't. If you sin you are of the devil. If you do right then you are righteous. It is not hard to understand.
It takes a theologian to obfuscate the truths of scripture.
The problem today, due to repentance not being preached correctly, is that very few people are actually coming out of their sins in the first place. They come into the kingdom under a false assurance that they are actually saved believing that their old man is crucified by degrees over a period of time. Thus they erroneously believe that a good tree can produce good and bad fruit and that one can be double-minded and still be in Christ.