Trinity?

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W

webchatter

Guest
It is the humans trying to comprehend our God's entirety, therein lies the problem. The words we use to describe the different aspects of God's completness, should not separate us. I have seen Scripture that shows several different things, but this is because God has many capabilities In His spiritualness. The word trinity to describe it is not wrong & I have no problem with the word oneness either, but some other concepts of that thinking disturb me.
The Bible says that Jesus "was" before the earth was ever made. Before He was half flesh /born of Mary. Therefore any other concept that contradicts those verses are incorrect. Both God & Jesus refer to themselves as " I am Alpha & Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord ,which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Jesus in Rev.1:8). Jesus says this again in verse 11. Then John recognizes Jesus in verse 13. In verse 17, "...fear not, I am the first and the last" 18-"I am He that liveth and was dead, and behold I am alive forevermore...."
 
Nov 19, 2012
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This God is the focus of the Shema:
"Hear O Israel, the LORD our GOD is one LORD" (Deuteronomy 6:4).
In the original Hebrew this was written:
"Hear O Israel, the ADONAI our ELOHIM is one ADONAI." (Note, some translations substitute YHVH for ADONAI which appears to be an interpolation into the text after the Babylonian captivity). We know God is called Adonai because Abraham called God this in Genesis 18:3. To speak of the Lord or God of Abraham was to speak of this same ADONAI and ELOHIM).




Let’s define our terms first…


ד שְׁמַע, יִשְׂרָאֵל: יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, יְהוָה אֶחָד.

Shama’ Yisra’el Yahweh Elohim Yahweh Echad

Deu 6:4 Hear,8085 O Israel:3478 Yahweh3068 our God430 Yahweh3068 (is)one259



יְהוָה = “Yahweh”

“Yahweh” definition:

H3068 Singular noun. The Tetragrammaton YHWH, the Lord, or Yahweh, the personal name of God and His most frequent designation in scripture, occurring 5321x. The word refers to the proper name of the God of Israel, particularly the name by which He revealed Himself to Moses (Ex: 6.2-3). It comes from the root “hawa” H1961, which means either existence, or development; “to be”. “The existing one”.

H1961 “hawa” A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.

H1933 “havah” A primitive root supposed to mean properly to breathe; to be (in the sense of existence): - be, X have.


References:
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), Gerhard Kittel, Gerhard Friedrich, & Geoffrey W. Bromiley, volume three, pp. 1067 - 1081
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) #484a, Harris, Archer, Waltke, volume 1, pp. 210 – 212
The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary of the Old Testament, Warren Baker, Eugene Carpenter, p. 426









ד שְׁמַע, יִשְׂרָאֵל: יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, יְהוָה אֶחָד.


אֱלֹהֵינוּ = “Elohim”

“Elohim” definition:

H430 A masculine plural noun. God, gods, judges, angels. This is not a “Plural of Majesty”. A better reason can be seen in scripture itself where, in the very first chapter of Genesis, the necessity of a term conveying both the unity of the one God and yet allowing for a plurality of persons is found (Gen 1.2, 26). This is further borne out by the fact that the form “Elohim” occurs only in Hebrew and in no other Semitic language, not even in Biblical Aramaic. Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.

H433 “eloah” Masculine singular noun. God or god. From H410; a deity or the deity: - God, god. See H430.


References:
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) #93c, Harris, Archer, Waltke, volume 1, pp. 41 - 45
The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary of the Old Testament, Warren Baker, Eugene Carpenter, p. 54
The New Strong’s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible Red-letter Edition, James Strong, LL.D., S.T.D., Hebrew and Aramaic dictionary, p. 17







ד שְׁמַע, יִשְׂרָאֵל: יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, יְהוָה אֶחָד.



אֶחָד = “echad”

“echad” definition:

H259 Adjective. One, same, single, first, each, once. It is closely identified with “yahad”, to be united and with “ro’sh”, first, head. It stresses unity while recognizing diversity within that oneness. A numerical adjective meaning one, first, once, the same. A numeral from H258; properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first: - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together. One (number), each, every, a certain, an (indefinite article), only, once, once for all, one...another, the one...the other, one after another, one by one, first, eleven (in combination), eleventh (ordinal).

H258 “achad” Verb. Perhaps a primitive root; to unify, that is, (figuratively) collect (one’s thoughts): - go one way or other; be sharp, keen.


References:
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) #61, #605, Harris, Archer, Waltke, volume 1, p. 30, 263
The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary of the Old Testament, Warren Baker, Eugene Carpenter, p. 33
The New Strong’s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible Red-letter Edition, James Strong, LL.D., S.T.D., Hebrew and Aramaic dictionary, p. 10







Here is the message that the Classic Hebrew is conveying to us:

• Tetragrammaton = singular
• Elohim = Plural
• Echad = one unity
• The juxtaposed words…Tetragrammaton, Elohim, Tetragrammaton, Echad
• God is referred to not once, not twice, but three times
• Singular, Plural, Singular
• These three elements form one unity
• Singular = Plural
• Plural = Singular
• God = Gods
• God is clearly singular
• God is clearly plural
• God is Uniplural



Hence, it is little wonder why Jesus quoted and proclaimed this as most important…

απεκριθη ο ιησους οτι πρωτη εστιν ακουε ισραηλ κυριος ο θεος ημων κυριος εις εστιν και αγαπησεις κυριον τον θεον σου εξ ολης καρδιας σου και εξ ολης της ψυχης σου και εξ ολης της διανοιας σου και εξ ολης της ισχυος σου

Mar 12.29 - 30 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is: "Hear, Israel. The Lord our God is one Lord, and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul" and with all your mind, "and with all your strength." This is the first commandment. (Deut. 6:4, 5)



You would do well to research your 'arguments' before hand…
 
Nov 19, 2012
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We know God is called Adonai because Abraham called God this in Genesis 18:3. To speak of the Lord or God of Abraham was to speak of this same ADONAI and ELOHIM).

Your knowledge of scripture ain't for garbage, son.


Abraham saw Jesus in the OT…


Your father Abraham leaped for joy that he should see My day, and he saw, and rejoiced.
Then the Jews said to Him, You do not yet have fifty years, and have You seen Abraham?
Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM!

(John 8.56 – 58)


Compare…



Genesis chapters 18 – 19 comprise the longest Trinitarian proof text in the entire Holy Bible.

· Yahweh appears as ‘three men’ to Abraham (Gen 18.1 – 2)
· Abraham addresses the ‘three men’ as ‘my Lords’ (adonai - plural)
· Abrahams responds… “If I have found favor in your (singular) sight (singular)…” (Gen 18.3)
· They answered Abraham” indicating that each of the ‘three men’ were Lord (Gen 18.5) (Effectively eliminating the three angels or God and two angels argument)
· Yahweh speaks of Yahweh in the third person (Gen 18.14, 19)
· God the Father remained to talk with Abraham, then returned to Heaven without going to Sodom (Gen 18.33)
· According to the text, there are at least two Yahwehs in Genesis 18 – 19. One Yahweh stated that he would go down to Sodom – and then two of the ‘three men’ went to Sodom (Gen 18.2, 22; 19.12). Abraham remained talking with another Yahweh (Gen 18.21 – 22). Later, Yahweh is described as being in Heaven while Yahweh is mentioned as being in Sodom (Gen 19.24)
· Gen 18 -19 shows us that there was never such a thing as the ‘Majestic Plural’
 
Nov 19, 2012
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As did Jesus BECAUSE HE WAS CREATED.

No, son, Jesus was not created.


Let’s review Rev 3.14…


και τω αγγελω της εν λαοδικεια εκκλησιας γραψον ταδε λεγει ο αμην ο μαρτυς ο πιστος και [ο] αληθινος η αρχη της κτισεως του θεου

Kai tō angelō tēs en laodikeia ekklēsias grapson tade legei o amēn o martus o pistos kai o alēthinos ē archē tēs ktiseōs tou theou

Rev 3.14 And to the angel in the Laodicea assembly, write: This says the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the origin, the creation, the God:




First, Jesus is the one being directly quoted (tade legei) and His epithets are listed appropriately. Jesus is not applying these epithets to anyone else – as they are applied solely to Him, alone – same as He applies them to Himself all through Revelation chapters 2 & 3.




και τω αγγελω της εν λαοδικεια εκκλησιας γραψον ταδε λεγει ο αμην ο μαρτυς ο πιστος και [ο] αληθινος η αρχη της κτισεως του θεου

In seven out of seven sequential verses, the formula ‘tade legei’ (demonstrative accusative; indicative verb) precedes the nominative singular masculine article ‘o’.

This translates into what is being stated by the epithets listed after the formula.

This means that listed epithets belong to Jesus – they do not represent separate entities.

The trend in all of these epithets points to Jesus’ deity not to Him being created.

Further, each address to the assemblies initiates with Jesus’ words, and then concludes with stating that the Spirit is the one who has just addressed them – thus, confirming the Trinity.

Secondly, this verse mandates that Jesus was never created and that He is the singular, nominative archē (i.e. the origin; the active cause), of the singular genitive creation, and the singular genitive God.

Jesus is God.

All things came into being through Jesus.

Thirdly, confirming that Jesus is the creator and not the creation, we have the following…



Peter to the Jews


ο θεος αβρααμ και ισαακ και ιακωβ ο θεος των πατερων ημων εδοξασεν τον παιδα αυτου ιησουν ον υμεις μεν παρεδωκατε και ηρνησασθε κατα προσωπον πιλατου κριναντος εκεινου απολυειν υμεις δε τον αγιον και δικαιον ηρνησασθε και ητησασθε ανδρα φονεα χαρισθηναι υμιν τον δε αρχηγον της ζωης απεκτεινατε ον ο θεος ηγειρεν εκ νεκρων ου ημεις μαρτυρες εσμεν

ho theos abraam kai isaak kai iakōb ho theos tōn paterōn ēmōn edoxasen ton paida autou iēsoun on umeis men paredōkate kai ērnēsasthe kata prosōpon pilatou krinantos ekeinou apoluein umeis de ton agion kai dikaion ērnēsasthe kai ētēsasthe andra phonea charisthēnai umin ton de archēgon tēs zōēs apekteinate on ho theos ēgeiren ek nekrōn ou ēmeis martures esmen

The "God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob," "the God of our fathers," glorified the Son of Him, Jesus, whom you delivered up, and denied Him in the presence of Pilate, that one having decided to set Him free. But you denied the Holy and Just One, and asked for a man, a murderer, to be granted to you. And the Originator of Life you killed, whom God raised up from the dead, of which we are witnesses. (Acts 3.13 -15)


Here we have Peter declaring to the Jews that they rejected and killed the ‘Originator of Life’ (de archēgon tēs zōēs), Jesus.

Here we can see the contrast that is being made as the Jews chose the release of a murderer(death) over that of Jesus Christ (the very originator of Life).
 
C

cmckey7127

Guest
Sense everyone wants to copy and paste, and I don't know enough at the scholarly level on the subject matter. I will simply post a copy and paste. The last comment on the subject was a portion of this post.


""In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1). Elohim is translated into English as God.
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"
To the Jews and early Christians, the name "God" meant a single Deity. To explain this God, Jews believed He was uncreated, He was eternal. He was a Divine Holy Spirit. He possessed a spiritual body form like that of man. He is self existent. He is all knowing. He possesses all power in heaven and upon earth. He is the creator of all existing things including man. He was a singular Deity that proved his Being behind the veil and in the holy of hollies. This God is the focus of the Shema:
"Hear O Israel, the LORD our GOD is one LORD" (Deuteronomy 6:4).
In the original Hebrew this was written:
"Hear O Israel, the ADONAI our ELOHIM is one ADONAI." (Note, some translations substitute YHVH for ADONAI which appears to be an interpolation into the text after the Babylonian captivity). We know God is called Adonai because Abraham called God this in Genesis 18:3. To speak of the Lord or God of Abraham was to speak of this same ADONAI and ELOHIM).
This is additionally supported by the first Commandment:
"Thou shall have no other gods before me" (Exodus 20:3).
"Thou shall have no other elohim before me."
It is understood clearly, that when Moses wrote other "gods" as "elohim", he was not and did not mean each of these gods was a trinity or that they consisted of three personalities. This is a fact no Trinitarian has ever refuted. Elohim then does not and will never mean the true God is a multiplicity of Divine Beings as falsely claimed by Rome, Protestants, and other Trinitarian groups.
It is without necessity of proof that Abraham and Noah, together with all other ancient patriarchs had only one God as the focus of their beliefs and worship. When I say one God, I mean they did not perceive or worship God in any way except he was one Divine holy Being with his one Holy Spirit. This oneness of God is the keystone of the religious worship and practices of the Jewish people. To them, to speak of God as Elohim did not turn him into more than one God.
Elohim is the plural form of the Hebrew singular Eloah ( DEU 32:15 DEU 32:17 2CH 32:15 NEH 9:17 JOB 3:4 JOB 3:23 JOB 4:9 JOB 4:17 JOB 5:17 JOB 6:4 JOB 6:8-9 JOB 9:13 JOB 10:2 JOB 11:5-7 JOB 12:4 JOB 12:6 JOB 15:8 JOB 16:20-21 JOB 19:6 JOB 19:21 JOB 19:26 JOB 21:9 JOB 21:19 JOB 22:12 JOB 22:26 JOB 24:12 JOB 27:3 JOB 27:8 JOB 27:10 JOB 29:2 JOB 29:4 JOB 31:2 JOB 31:6 JOB 33:12 JOB 33:26 JOB 35:10 JOB 36:2 JOB 37:15 JOB 37:22 JOB 39:17 JOB 40:2 PSA 18:31 PSA 50:22 PSA 114:7 PSA 139:19 PRO 30:5 ISA 44:8 DAN 11:37-39 HAB 3:3).
These texts prove God is one.
The text containing Elohim prove God has more than one attribute.
In the Hebrew text, Elohim is a plural noun. It is because of this, trinitarians try to claim God is more than one. In defining this One, they attempt to divide God into three. But how is this one three? Trinitarians claim the one is three consisting of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In the three scheme, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are God and separate from each other. What has been created is three separate Gods. But trinitarians claim this is not what they believe. Some claim there is one God who has one Spirit and who has three personalities. Some claim that each personality has its own Spirit separate from the other two. This again results in three separate Gods. Trinitarians claim the plural Elohim proves God is not numerically one. This again means God is a numerical three. This continues the three separate Gods doctrine within trinitarianism. Does Elohim mean more than one God?
In Hebrew, the plural noun receives a plural suffix. It receives a plural verb. And it receives a plural adjective. Does Elohim have a plural verb and adjective in Genesis 1:1? The answer is no. The verb is singular "created". This means Elohim is speaking of one God not a multiplicity of Gods or Beings doing the creating. Elohim in the plural is showing God in the attributes of his power and creativity in the creation miracles. God had to be multi-intellectual and quite a Creator to do the many things necessary for the creation to exist and function in unity. Plurality in unity does not demand God to be a unity of three gods.
When Jews read the Hebrew Elohim in the Bible they inject into the reading (He). For instance:
"In the beginning Elohim (He) created the heavens and the earth." This is proof Jews do not believe God is more than one.
To give this testimony of one God additional and final testimony, Oneness Jews and Oneness Christians will point to the Tabernacle in the Old Testament. They take all who seek God behind the veil. Lifting up the veil they point to one presence of God between the cherubs and say, there is the one God of Israel. No trinitarian has yet to debunk this witness to the oneness of God.
What then would Elohim being plural mean? It does not mean a multiplicity of gods created the heavens and the earth. If trinitarians demand Elohim means three, then they must mean three Gods because that is how they make one into three with their division of God into the three separate Beings of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I have asked trinitarians of great theological learning if the trinity is three separate Beings each having their own Spirit and each having their own body; which would mean three separate gods, not one God. I have not yet found a trinitarian to admit there are three gods in heaven or that three gods created the heavens and the earth. This, in spite of their continued false use of "us" and "our" scriptures such as in Genesis 1:26, 11:7; and Isaiah 6:8.
Elohim, according to Welhim Gesenius in his Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon, 49a, says it is a plural of majesty. Trinitarians have tried to attack this Jewish interpretation but have failed the ultimate test of proving Elohim means a multiplicity of gods. To say Elohim means a multiplicity of personalities and then say: "one God" is not one Being and one Spirit, is contradictory.
If as Gesenius claims, Elohim means a plural of majesty, then we ask ourselves how this majesty is demonstrated? Some think the plural "we" as used by rulers in speaking of themselves is the answer. I do not accept this as being the Jewish meaning of the plural of majesty. I see the plural of majesty or the plural of excellence as being the attributes of God. God is one Being, possessing one Body and one Spirit. But his attributes are many. His attributes are the inherent characteristics of all that he is. What are some of the known attributes of God?
Thus, when we speak of God as to his attributes we can call him "The Elohim." And when we speak of only his Divine Being with no emphasis on his attributes we call him "Eloah."
It is our faith and we believe also the faith of the Jews and the patriarchs, that when "El" is contracted from Eloah and placed in names, it refers to the one and only God. There are hundreds of names beginning and ending with "El" that refer to the single, numerical one Eloah-God. None of these uses of "El" refer to a multiplicity of gods or Divine Beings existing within what was believed to be God. Here is a short list:
El-ishah, El-am, El-Paran, El-iezer, Bethu-El, El-daah, El-on, El-el-ohe, El-beth-el, El-iphaz, El-isheba, El-kanah, El-im, El-zaphan, El-izur, El-iab, El-ishama, El-iasaph, El-dad, El-onites, El-ealeh, El-ath, El-tolad, El-tekon, El-eph, Jiphthah-El, Migdal-El, El-tekeh, El-imelech, El-ihu, El-i, Samu-El, El-ishua, El-iada, El-iphalet, El-ika, El-ihoreph, El-bethhanan, El-ijah, El-isha, Micha-El.
All of these names and many more prove one God, one Divine Being. Not in a single case of these names is it understood the "El" refers to a plurality of Divine Beings. There is not a single case of the use of 'El" in names that Trinitarians can claim the intent of the name means the person was named after a multiplicity of gods or Divine Beings.
We can see how the use of Elohim refers to the plural attributes of God and not that there are at least three or more of them.

Right from the beginning we see God holding different offices or different identities as he makes manifest his glorious powers.

Our first knowledge of God's attributes is he is the Creator.
God is the giver of life, thus in this attribute he is life giver and sustainer.
God is a law Creator in regard to created beings and the physical elements and bodies of the universe.
God is the magistrate of all beings, and as judge he manifests his wisdom and knowledge (two other attributes).
God gives his love, mercy, and grace: all of which are attributes.
God is an artist and puts color into the creation to give it balance and beauty.
God is an engineer and places all things to function within certain laws.
God is a botanist, knowing all plants and establishing their life cycles.
God is a scientist, knowing all elements, their function, inter-relationships, and how they can combine to form tangible objects.
These are only a small portion of God's attributes. They are many more. My point here is to show how Elohim in its plural from speaks of the attributes of God and has nothing to do with a multiplicity of Beings in the trinity. To even assume Elohim means a trinity of gods or separate person beings, goes outside of the Bible and completely away from the intent of the writers.
We can look at the examples of a cluster of grapes, a stalk of bananas, an almond cluster, and the Menorah to better understand how one can be spoke of singular and also a plural.
Here a cluster of grapes is both singular "cluster" and "grapes" plural. There is one cluster but many grapes. Each grape is an attribute of the cluster. In addition, each cluster is an attribute of one vine. The one vine is not the one cluster and not the attributes grapes. But the cluster and the grapes are the attributes of the vine. A vine does not need clusters or grapes to exist in its oneness. But, each cluster and the grapes being attributes shows us how Elohim is to be understood as a name for God that describes his plurality of majesty and excellence.

Here we can see another example. There is one banana tree. There is one stalk. There are manny bananas on the stalk. Each banana is an attribute of the one stalk. Each stalk is an attribute of the banana tree. The banana is not the stalk and the stalk is not the banana tree. The banana tree does not need the stalk or the bananas to be a banana tree. But each stalk and each banana is an attribute of the banana tree. This again shows us how Elohim is to be understood as a name for God that describes his plural of majesty and excellence.


Here is a small cluster of almonds. there is one almond tree. There are many almonds on the branches of the almond tree. But, each almond is only an attribute of the almond branch and almond tree. An almond tree does not need the almonds to be an almond tree. The almonds are an attribute of the almond tree. This is another example of how Elohim is used to describe the attributes of God and has nothing to do with a secret or hidden meaning that there is more than one God. Trinitarian use of the plural form of Elohim to prove there are three separate God Beings in heaven goes completely away from common Biblical sense and Truth.


The menorah is a representative of God. The seven candlesticks represent seven attributes of God. We do not know what these attributes represent. I take them to all represent the holiness and purity of God. Some have compared them to the attributes of God in Isaiah 11:2:

ISA 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.
Some see the seven attributes as:
God the holy Creator;
God the holy Law giver;
God the holy Judge;
God the holy Forgiver by his grace and mercy;
God the holy Covenant maker;
God the holy Redeemer
When we think of Elohim (plural) we bring all the attributes into our mind. When we speak of God as Eloah (singular) we think of God as to his singular Being and Divinity.
Trinitarians may continue to pervert the plural Elohim into three separate and distinct beings, and call them each God separate from the others. But to do so they must confess there are three Gods not one. To say they believe in one God and yet speak of three gods is enough for any person of rational mind to reject the trinity theory because it is confusing, contradictory, and extra-biblical.
God is one God. He is one Being. He is one Spirit. He has one spiritual Body and one earthy image body. God is Father in creation in his spirit body. God is the Redeemer in the human body of Jesus: making Jesus God with us in human form (Emmanuel, God with us: Matthew 1:23). God is the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit, in regeneration. God does appear in different modes. Trinitarians mock about our use of the word "mode" and call us "Modalist" as if this name created by the Catholic church is supposed to make us ashamed. We are not ashamed of being called Modalist, because with it comes the name Monarchian as well as Jewish.
Yes, just as the Jews reject there being more than one God and see different "modes" of God in many theophanies, so do the Apostolic modalist. And yes, we Apostolic Messianics hold to these Jewish teachings because God has already authenticated them.
So, to summarize Elohim, it is a plural form of majesty and excellence and speaks of God's attributes. It does not and never has meant there is a multiplicity of gods which the plural form would demand if the trinitarian perversion is allowed to be correct.

Finally, when a trinitarian tries to use Elohim to prove a trinity, you have a perverter and a distorter at work trying out thimblerigging to see if you can guess if there is one thimble or three. Do not accept the Catholic riddle that one is three.

Dr. G. Reckart
Apostolic Theological Bible College"
 
Nov 19, 2012
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That's what I thought...meritless, indefensible Trinity-denier assertions.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
Elohim is translated into English as God.
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"
To the Jews and early Christians, the name "God" meant a single Deity. To explain this God, Jews believed He was uncreated, He was eternal. He was a Divine Holy Spirit. He possessed a spiritual body form like that of man. He is self existent. He is all knowing. He possesses all power in heaven and upon earth. He is the creator of all existing things including man. He was a singular Deity that proved his Being behind the veil and in the holy of hollies. This God is the focus of the Shema:
"Hear O Israel, the LORD our GOD is one LORD" (Deuteronomy 6:4).
In the original Hebrew this was written:
"Hear O Israel, the ADONAI our ELOHIM is one ADONAI." (Note, some translations substitute YHVH for ADONAI which appears to be an interpolation into the text after the Babylonian captivity). We know God is called Adonai because Abraham called God this in Genesis 18:3. To speak of the Lord or God of Abraham was to speak of this same ADONAI and ELOHIM).
This is additionally supported by the first Commandment:
"Thou shall have no other gods before me" (Exodus 20:3).
"Thou shall have no other elohim before me."
It is understood clearly, that when Moses wrote other "gods" as "elohim", he was not and did not mean each of these gods was a trinity or that they consisted of three personalities. This is a fact no Trinitarian has ever refuted. Elohim then does not and will never mean the true God is a multiplicity of Divine Beings as falsely claimed by Rome, Protestants, and other Trinitarian groups.
All you have done is put your own opinion into the Bible. I will put it a bit clearer. The word one in Deuteronomy 6:4 means one as in united not one as in singular.
H259
אחד
'echâd
ekh-awd'
A numeral from H258; properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first: - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
Jesus was a man. Indwelled with God! Fully man fully God.
When Jesus left, We where then able to be filled with the Holy Spirit.
Making us like Jesus.
Jesus was God manifest in the flesh, He was one With God because God indwelled him!

Now we are indwelled with God manifest as (Holy spirit) thus for filling his prayer.
Again all you have done is use your own opinion to change the meaning.
 
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cmckey7127

Guest
No, son, Jesus was not created.


Let’s review Rev 3.14…


και τω αγγελω της εν λαοδικεια εκκλησιας γραψον ταδε λεγει ο αμην ο μαρτυς ο πιστος και [ο] αληθινος η αρχη της κτισεως του θεου

Kai tō angelō tēs en laodikeia ekklēsias grapson tade legei o amēn o martus o pistos kai o alēthinos ē archē tēs ktiseōs tou theou

Rev 3.14 And to the angel in the Laodicea assembly, write: This says the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the origin, the creation, the God:




First, Jesus is the one being directly quoted (tade legei) and His epithets are listed appropriately. Jesus is not applying these epithets to anyone else – as they are applied solely to Him, alone – same as He applies them to Himself all through Revelation chapters 2 & 3.




και τω αγγελω της εν λαοδικεια εκκλησιας γραψον ταδε λεγει ο αμην ο μαρτυς ο πιστος και [ο] αληθινος η αρχη της κτισεως του θεου

In seven out of seven sequential verses, the formula ‘tade legei’ (demonstrative accusative; indicative verb) precedes the nominative singular masculine article ‘o’.

This translates into what is being stated by the epithets listed after the formula.

This means that listed epithets belong to Jesus – they do not represent separate entities.

The trend in all of these epithets points to Jesus’ deity not to Him being created.

Further, each address to the assemblies initiates with Jesus’ words, and then concludes with stating that the Spirit is the one who has just addressed them – thus, confirming the Trinity.

Secondly, this verse mandates that Jesus was never created and that He is the singular, nominative archē (i.e. the origin; the active cause), of the singular genitive creation, and the singular genitive God.

Jesus is God.

All things came into being through Jesus.

Thirdly, confirming that Jesus is the creator and not the creation, we have the following…



Peter to the Jews


ο θεος αβρααμ και ισαακ και ιακωβ ο θεος των πατερων ημων εδοξασεν τον παιδα αυτου ιησουν ον υμεις μεν παρεδωκατε και ηρνησασθε κατα προσωπον πιλατου κριναντος εκεινου απολυειν υμεις δε τον αγιον και δικαιον ηρνησασθε και ητησασθε ανδρα φονεα χαρισθηναι υμιν τον δε αρχηγον της ζωης απεκτεινατε ον ο θεος ηγειρεν εκ νεκρων ου ημεις μαρτυρες εσμεν

ho theos abraam kai isaak kai iakōb ho theos tōn paterōn ēmōn edoxasen ton paida autou iēsoun on umeis men paredōkate kai ērnēsasthe kata prosōpon pilatou krinantos ekeinou apoluein umeis de ton agion kai dikaion ērnēsasthe kai ētēsasthe andra phonea charisthēnai umin ton de archēgon tēs zōēs apekteinate on ho theos ēgeiren ek nekrōn ou ēmeis martures esmen

The "God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob," "the God of our fathers," glorified the Son of Him, Jesus, whom you delivered up, and denied Him in the presence of Pilate, that one having decided to set Him free. But you denied the Holy and Just One, and asked for a man, a murderer, to be granted to you. And the Originator of Life you killed, whom God raised up from the dead, of which we are witnesses. (Acts 3.13 -15)


Here we have Peter declaring to the Jews that they rejected and killed the ‘Originator of Life’ (de archēgon tēs zōēs), Jesus.

Here we can see the contrast that is being made as the Jews chose the release of a murderer(death) over that of Jesus Christ (the very originator of Life).
Thank you for your opinion.. Or wait... Trinitarians, who is the Ancient of Days in Daniel 7:13? - Page 5 - Theology Online | Christian Forums & More
Your quote from this website?...

I dont mind quotes, but when you post stuff that you did not write that you hardly understand yourself (hence all the Hebrew leadering) it kinda does not prove anything.


Every source you or anyone else has posted is out of obviously trinitarian sources.
Tell the Jew's that they believed in more then one God, tell me how that goes :)
 
C

cmckey7127

Guest
Your knowledge of scripture ain't for garbage, son.


Abraham saw Jesus in the OT…


Your father Abraham leaped for joy that he should see My day, and he saw, and rejoiced.
Then the Jews said to Him, You do not yet have fifty years, and have You seen Abraham?
Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM!
(John 8.56 – 58)
Compare…
Genesis chapters 18 – 19 comprise the longest Trinitarian proof text in the entire Holy Bible.


As for (John 8.56 – 58) your point is invalid. Jesus saying he was before Abraham does not disagree with the Oneness point of View.
Jesus the man was not there before Abraham. But God that that was in him was there. So Yes God was there Before Abraham obviously.

But to use Genesis 18 out of context is redicoulous. Just read this! "

Genesis 18:1-5 Now the LORD (Yahweh) appearedto him {Abraham} by the oaks of Mamre, while he {Abraham} was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 And when he {Abraham} lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men (iysh) were standing opposite him {Abraham}; and when he {Abraham} saw them (plural pronoun), he {Abraham} ran from the tent door to meet them (plural pronoun), and bowed himself to the earth, 3 and said, "My Lord (‘Lord’ = Adonaay, the singular, emphatic Hebrew noun adon), if now I {Abraham} have found favor in your (singular pronoun) sight, please do not pass your (singular pronoun) servant by. 4 Please let a little water be brought and wash your (singularpronoun) feet, and rest yourselves (plural pronoun) under the tree; 5 and I will bring a piece of bread, that you (singularpronoun) may refresh yourselves (pluralpronoun); after that you (singularpronoun) may go on, since you (singularpronoun) have visited your (singularpronoun) servant.” And they (pluralpronoun) said, “So do, as you have said.”

In Genesis 18:3, Abraham addresses only one of the three men as, “My Lord.” As he continues speaking in verses 4-5, he offers hospitality to all three men. If we read only Genesis 18:1-5 without reading further to determine the overall context, it would be impossible to delineate the three male personages sent to Abraham by Yahweh.

Genesis 18:1 says ‘Yahweh’ appeared to Abraham by the oaks of Mamre as he was sitting. Because of the ambiguous identity of the three men in the first few verses, supporters of the false doctrine of the Trinity typically use only Genesis 18:1-5 to bolster their argument that “the triune Godhead coexists in the Old Testament as three distinct Persons of God.”
This flawed method of hermeneutics is also known as ‘selective interpretation.’ Trinity supporters use the technique to make known the identity of the three men as the ‘3-in-One’ Deity.

By limiting the identification process to the first five verses of Genesis 18; thereafter, they ‘pick and choose’ verses that agree with the flawed interpretation. The reason our interpretation would be flawed if we read only Genesis 18:1-5 is because singular and plural pronouns are used back and forth in the context (e.g. he, his, him, them, he, them, My Lord, your, I, yourselves, you, etc).

However, we DO have substantially more Scripture that follows in the remaining verses of chapter 18 and 32 verses of Chapter 19. Before proceeding further, I will make known the identity of all three men up front, and then provide evidence for my interpretation by using only the Scripture passage itself, including some key words in the text.

·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Two of the men are actually angels or literally ‘messengers’ sent from Yahweh Elohim to rescue Lot from Sodom. The third man in the trio is Yahweh manifested in His human form messenger.

·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]The text of Genesis Chapters 18 & 19 makes clear the demarcation between the two angels that were assigned to rescue Lot in Sodom and the third male personage that is speaking directly AS Yahweh.

·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Unlike the two men later identified as angels, the third messenger is never identified as an angel per say (in the context of Genesis 18 & 19). Regarding the third man’s identity, we must not assume what the Scripture does not say. It is a reasonable premise, based on the overall tenor of the Hebrew Old Testament, to assume he is the angel of Yahweh, a figure seen throughout the entire Old Testament in situations and events involving Yahweh’s direct intervention."


Good try.
 
Nov 19, 2012
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Thank you for your opinion.. Or wait... Trinitarians, who is the Ancient of Days in Daniel 7:13? - Page 5 - Theology Online | Christian Forums & More
Your quote from this website?...

I dont mind quotes, but when you post stuff that you did not write that you hardly understand yourself (hence all the Hebrew leadering) it kinda does not prove anything.


Every source you or anyone else has posted is out of obviously trinitarian sources.
Tell the Jew's that they believed in more then one God, tell me how that goes :)
I just hate it when I plagiarize my own material.

Nice try...
 
Nov 19, 2012
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As for (John 8.56 – 58) your point is invalid. Jesus saying he was before Abraham does not disagree with the Oneness point of View.


Yes, it does.



Jesus the man was not there before Abraham. But God that that was in him was there. So Yes God was there Before Abraham obviously.
Jesus is God.

Abraham saw Jesus, as confirmed by scripture.




But to use Genesis 18 out of context is redicoulous. Just read this! "
Genesis 18:1-5 Now the LORD (Yahweh) appearedto him {Abraham} by the oaks of Mamre, while he {Abraham} was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 And when he {Abraham} lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men (iysh) were standing opposite him {Abraham}; and when he {Abraham} saw them (plural pronoun), he {Abraham} ran from the tent door to meet them (plural pronoun), and bowed himself to the earth, 3 and said, "My Lord (‘Lord’ = Adonaay, the singular, emphatic Hebrew noun adon), if now I {Abraham} have found favor in your (singular pronoun) sight, please do not pass your (singular pronoun) servant by. 4 Please let a little water be brought and wash your (singularpronoun) feet, and rest yourselves (plural pronoun) under the tree; 5 and I will bring a piece of bread, that you (singularpronoun) may refresh yourselves (pluralpronoun); after that you (singularpronoun) may go on, since you (singularpronoun) have visited your (singularpronoun) servant.” And they (pluralpronoun) said, “So do, as you have said.”
And?

These same three 'men' are also referred to 'Lord', 'messenger' and Yahweh throughout Gen 18 and 19.




In Genesis 18:3, Abraham addresses only one of the three men as, “My Lord.”
As he continues speaking in verses 4-5, he offers hospitality to all three men. If we read only Genesis 18:1-5 without reading further to determine the overall context, it would be impossible to delineate the three male personages sent to Abraham by Yahweh.
He address all three and they respond as one.







Genesis 18:1 says ‘Yahweh’ appeared to Abraham by the oaks of Mamre as he was sitting. Because of the ambiguous identity of the three men in the first few verses, supporters of the false doctrine of the Trinity typically use only Genesis 18:1-5 to bolster their argument that “the triune Godhead coexists in the Old Testament as three distinct Persons of God.”
This flawed method of hermeneutics is also known as ‘selective interpretation.’ Trinity supporters use the technique to make known the identity of the three men as the ‘3-in-One’ Deity.

By limiting the identification process to the first five verses of Genesis 18; thereafter, they ‘pick and choose’ verses that agree with the flawed interpretation. The reason our interpretation would be flawed if we read only Genesis 18:1-5 is because singular and plural pronouns are used back and forth in the context (e.g. he, his, him, them, he, them, My Lord, your, I, yourselves, you, etc).

However, we DO have substantially more Scripture that follows in the remaining verses of chapter 18 and 32 verses of Chapter 19. Before proceeding further, I will make known the identity of all three men up front, and then provide evidence for my interpretation by using only the Scripture passage itself, including some key words in the text.
I use the entire chapter.

However, you cannot defend your googled webpaste.







·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Two of the men are actually angels or literally ‘messengers’ sent from Yahweh Elohim to rescue Lot from Sodom. The third man in the trio is Yahweh manifested in His human form messenger.
All three men are listed as 'Lord',' Messenger', and Yahweh.






·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]The text of Genesis Chapters 18 & 19 makes clear the demarcation between the two angels that were assigned to rescue Lot in Sodom and the third male personage that is speaking directly AS Yahweh.
So Yahweh came to earth in human form in the OT!




·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Unlike the two men later identified as angels, the third messenger is never identified as an angel per say (in the context of Genesis 18 & 19). Regarding the third man’s identity, we must not assume what the Scripture does not say. It is a reasonable premise, based on the overall tenor of the Hebrew Old Testament, to assume he is the angel of Yahweh, a figure seen throughout the entire Old Testament in situations and events involving Yahweh’s direct intervention."


Good try.


This is Malek Yahweh...i.e. The Son....i.e. God.
 
C

cmckey7127

Guest
I have read your comment's.
Thank you for your participation in this discussion.
I think both sides have presented there arguments very well. (humble brag) lol

I still disagree with the trinity in light of all the questions I asked a few post back that no one would, or could answer.


There where a few things brought up that I will admit, I have never looked into, but they seamed pretty explainable in when shined on with logic, revelation, and understanding.

I would love for you all to go talk to the Jew's and then tell me any word referring to God in the old testament was referring to a unity.
(pleas feel free to contact me with the information you find)
Gen 18 in context with 19 the 2 men with the Lord, where angels.
Pleas reread it, and realize the context without jumping to the trinity.


There is a book I would like to refer you all to. it is called "The Oneness of God" by David K Bernard.
I find it to be one of the best books on the subject, he effectively dismantles the doctrine of the trinity.


You all are very intelligent and have a lot to offer, I would encourage you to look into this doctrine of the oneness. It is a revalation so pray that God will show you. Any intelligent persons knows if you read books by people that are against any subject matter you prob will be against it. So find stuff. good material. And just read the bible.


The reason I believe if you pray you will receive the revelation is, I have been apart of the conversion proses of a few intellectual well grounded Trinitarians. Pleas do not be complacent.

I will no longer reply to this post. All that can be said has been said.
Thank you God bless.

 
Nov 19, 2012
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I still disagree with the trinity in light of all the questions I asked a few post back that no one would, or could answer.

]There where a few things brought up that I will admit, I have never looked into, but they [seamed pretty explainable in when shined on with logic, revelation, and understanding.



Like what...?


I would love for you all to go talk to the Jew's and then tell me any word referring to God in the old testament was referring to a unity.(pleas feel free to contact me with the information you find)


What term is first used for God in Genesis 1.1?




Gen 18 in context with 19 the 2 men with the Lord, where angels.
Pleas reread it, and realize the context without jumping to the trinity.


Please tell us how it is Abraham stands and talks before Yahweh on earth, while, at the same time, Yahweh calls-out from heaven?



There is a book I would like to refer you all to. it is called "The Oneness of God" by David K Bernard.
I find it to be one of the best books on the subject, he effectively dismantles the doctrine of the trinity.


Bring forth and defend his best example.



You all are very intelligent and have a lot to offer, I would encourage you to look into this doctrine of the oneness. It is a revalation so pray that God will show you. Any intelligent persons knows if you read books by people that are against any subject matter you prob will be against it. So find stuff. good material. And just read the bible.



Oneness is an abomination.



I will no longer reply to this post. All that can be said has been said.


No surprise here...
 
C

cmckey7127

Guest
Defend his best 'argument'...
If you are actually interested in the subject, and not just arguing you will read it yourself.
"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"
"Study to show yourself approved"

I have presented you with something, if you want to understand you will read it.

As I said before I'm done debating.
You are obviously blind to the truth.
Disprove me, Read this book. Then tell me you believe the trinity.

Godbless.
 
Nov 19, 2012
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If you are actually interested in the subject, and not just arguing you will read it yourself.
"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"
"Study to show yourself approved"

I have presented you with something, if you want to understand you will read it.

As I said before I'm done debating.
You are obviously blind to the truth.
Disprove me, Read this book. Then tell me you believe the trinity.

Godbless.

You haven't even read his book.

If you had, then you could pick his best argument and defend it.

As it is, you don't even know where to start...yes?