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ALTER2EGO -to- BOWMAN:
You went through all of the above song and dance, during which you played a good game of semantics. And all for what? Just so you could to the erroneous conclusion that Jesus is also Jehovah God. Not surprisingly you did not produce one shred of documentary evidence (scriptures) to prove this.
Please show the forum the exact verses of scripture that say Jesus the Son is also Jehovah the Father. Everything else you posted above amounts to your personal opinions. This is a public forum where everybody shows up with a different opinion. Evidence is what the forum wants, not personal philosophies.
Where are the scriptures that say Jesus Christ the Son is also Almighty God Jehovah, the Father. This is a Bible discussion in which God's inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, is the authority. Therefore, personal philosophies don't count for much.
The forum awaits said scriptures.
You went through all of the above song and dance, during which you played a good game of semantics. And all for what? Just so you could to the erroneous conclusion that Jesus is also Jehovah God. Not surprisingly you did not produce one shred of documentary evidence (scriptures) to prove this.
Please show the forum the exact verses of scripture that say Jesus the Son is also Jehovah the Father. Everything else you posted above amounts to your personal opinions. This is a public forum where everybody shows up with a different opinion. Evidence is what the forum wants, not personal philosophies.
Where are the scriptures that say Jesus Christ the Son is also Almighty God Jehovah, the Father. This is a Bible discussion in which God's inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, is the authority. Therefore, personal philosophies don't count for much.
The forum awaits said scriptures.
ALTER2EGO -to- BOWMAN:
You are quoting from a Bible that is presenting translation blunders, and you have the nerve to complain about the New World Translation! Jesus could not possibly be the "Originator of Life" because he is himself a created being according to Colossians 3:15.
"{15} He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION; {16}because by means of him [Jesus] all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. {17} Also, he is before all other things and by means of him all other things were made to exist." (Colossians 1:15-17)
Verse 17 makes it clear that Jehovah God worked through Jesus. In other words, the power behind the creation was Almighty God Jehovah. Jesus Christ himself acknowledged this.
"Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: 'Most truly I say to you, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner." (John 5:19)
Furthermore, the very scripture you are quoting says Jesus was killed. The Originator of life, Jehovah God, is immortal and cannot die.
You are quoting from a Bible that is presenting translation blunders, and you have the nerve to complain about the New World Translation! Jesus could not possibly be the "Originator of Life" because he is himself a created being according to Colossians 3:15.
"{15} He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION; {16}because by means of him [Jesus] all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. {17} Also, he is before all other things and by means of him all other things were made to exist." (Colossians 1:15-17)
Verse 17 makes it clear that Jehovah God worked through Jesus. In other words, the power behind the creation was Almighty God Jehovah. Jesus Christ himself acknowledged this.
"Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: 'Most truly I say to you, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner." (John 5:19)
Furthermore, the very scripture you are quoting says Jesus was killed. The Originator of life, Jehovah God, is immortal and cannot die.
As scripture states, Jesus' flesh died...not His divinity, as thus...
1 Peter 3.18
Because even Christ once suffered concerning sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God; indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit;
Do you not yet understand the Trinity?
No one has ever seen God the Father and lived.
However, there are numerous Biblical accounts where God the Son and God the Spirit manifested in the flesh, and were seen...but never God the Father.
There are numerous OT accounts of Yahweh manifesting in human form via Malek Yahweh, and seen by the prophets.
Judges records for us that Gideon saw and talked with Yahweh....so did Manoah and his wife, etc, etc.
Study up...
ος εστιν εικων του θεου του αορατου πρωτοτοκος πασης κτισεως
Col 1.15 expresses subordination. The genitive substantive specifies that which is subordinated to, or under, the dominion of the head substantive. In this case, the creation is subordinate to Jesus.
Adding context, (Col 1.9 – 20), clearly and irrefutably demonstrates Jesus’ deity.
Further, Col 1.15 – 20 is a hymn…and, as we all know, hymns are sung to deity, not mortals.
Re: Owned again...
It functions as both singular and plural.
That is why I showed you how your very own 'beloved' translators rendered the very same word as plural in other locations in the NWT.
Its amazing that you have debased your whole argument down to a single word pivoting upon the rendering bias of the translator.
It functions as both singular and plural.
That is why I showed you how your very own 'beloved' translators rendered the very same word as plural in other locations in the NWT.
Its amazing that you have debased your whole argument down to a single word pivoting upon the rendering bias of the translator.
T
Re: Owned again...
Ok so now this is your answer, it's both; remember when you said above that it wasn't even the same word as in the dictionary?
You're still trying your very best, through distractions and ridicule, to avoid the inevitable point that should have been obvious from the very beginning. The Greek translation of this word, i.e. 'onoma', is singular and the exact same word as found in Matthew 28:19, isn't it? Or can that one function as both singular and plural too?
Thank you.
Ok so now this is your answer, it's both; remember when you said above that it wasn't even the same word as in the dictionary?
You're still trying your very best, through distractions and ridicule, to avoid the inevitable point that should have been obvious from the very beginning. The Greek translation of this word, i.e. 'onoma', is singular and the exact same word as found in Matthew 28:19, isn't it? Or can that one function as both singular and plural too?
Thank you.
F
Alter, I know you said you were not addressing me, so I am answering these just for the purpose of anyone who wants to read them, I know they were not addressed to me.
So it is admitted that an eternal person has no beginning or no end, and also that an eternal person cannot die.
So then if Jesus is called the "everlasting Father", then he is eternal, and can not die.
Your questions asking concerning the death of Christ in his humanity, seems to me that you have missed the whole point of why he came in human form:
Heb 2:
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
He had to be made a "partaker of flesh in blood" so that he could be able to die so "through death" he might destroy Satan.
No flesh and blood no death seems to be the implication.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people
Your argument trying to prove that because he chose to come in this form, so he could die, MUST mean he is not eternal is not valid.
That is like me saying there is no way a butterfly can fly, because a Caterpillar has no wings.
If he died in human form, why would that mean he must not be eternal? When you die what do you think happens? DO you think you do not exist anymore?
He did exist, because as scripture tells us, "his soul was not left in Hades, neither did his flesh see corruption".
This was a prophecy through David, and as Peter tells us in Acts 2, it is concerning Christ:
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption
So if his soul was NOT LEFT, then he must have been their, and if his flesh DID NOT SEE corruption, then it did not rot away like our does when we die.
So i ask you (knowing your ignoring, so anyone here) when was His soul in Hades?
Of course that would not be a contradiction, again you seem to not be able to differentiate between Deity, and humanity.
Does his death contradict the term "everlasting father"? what does that even mean? Surely you have something better than "hes a daddy like Adam" or whatever the last guy said concerning this because their was no answer.
You mean should you go with what the watchtower says, for now, seeing they may change their view again showing their wrong, oh I mean received "new light".
The fact that deity came in human form, to die a death for me and you, shows love on a level beyond what the word means. A level you will never understand because you, like the Jews, deny Christ, by denying His deity.
Not just a little error on judgment, because he said if you "do not believe that I AM, ye shall die in your sins".
I still have not had an justifiable answer to this:
Why did Thomas call him "my Lord and my God"?
I did get one answer, Thomas was just saying "OMG". Surely there is a better one than that.
I seriously doubt they used modern American slang, nor would he take the Lord's name in vain, seeing that would be sinful.
Question:
To what was Jesus referring to by the term "this temple" in Jn 2:18- 19?
Does it mean his body? YES OR NO????
So it is admitted that an eternal person has no beginning or no end, and also that an eternal person cannot die.
So then if Jesus is called the "everlasting Father", then he is eternal, and can not die.
Your questions asking concerning the death of Christ in his humanity, seems to me that you have missed the whole point of why he came in human form:
Heb 2:
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
He had to be made a "partaker of flesh in blood" so that he could be able to die so "through death" he might destroy Satan.
No flesh and blood no death seems to be the implication.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people
Your argument trying to prove that because he chose to come in this form, so he could die, MUST mean he is not eternal is not valid.
That is like me saying there is no way a butterfly can fly, because a Caterpillar has no wings.
If he died in human form, why would that mean he must not be eternal? When you die what do you think happens? DO you think you do not exist anymore?
He did exist, because as scripture tells us, "his soul was not left in Hades, neither did his flesh see corruption".
This was a prophecy through David, and as Peter tells us in Acts 2, it is concerning Christ:
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption
So if his soul was NOT LEFT, then he must have been their, and if his flesh DID NOT SEE corruption, then it did not rot away like our does when we die.
So i ask you (knowing your ignoring, so anyone here) when was His soul in Hades?
Of course that would not be a contradiction, again you seem to not be able to differentiate between Deity, and humanity.
Does his death contradict the term "everlasting father"? what does that even mean? Surely you have something better than "hes a daddy like Adam" or whatever the last guy said concerning this because their was no answer.
You mean should you go with what the watchtower says, for now, seeing they may change their view again showing their wrong, oh I mean received "new light".
The fact that deity came in human form, to die a death for me and you, shows love on a level beyond what the word means. A level you will never understand because you, like the Jews, deny Christ, by denying His deity.
Not just a little error on judgment, because he said if you "do not believe that I AM, ye shall die in your sins".
I still have not had an justifiable answer to this:
Why did Thomas call him "my Lord and my God"?
I did get one answer, Thomas was just saying "OMG". Surely there is a better one than that.
I seriously doubt they used modern American slang, nor would he take the Lord's name in vain, seeing that would be sinful.
Question:
To what was Jesus referring to by the term "this temple" in Jn 2:18- 19?
Does it mean his body? YES OR NO????
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