Paul did NOT die to the law!

psychomom · Nov 26, 2012

If I parse Luke 11:4 into the greek (which a know a brilliant guy like you may have already done, so, sorry if you have!) that part about us forgiving comes out "kai gar autoi aphiomen panti opheilonti hémin". The whole thing rendered strictly literally reads:
"and forgive us the sins of us, also indeed ourselves we forgive everyone indebted to us".
There's no cause and effect there. But the Lord wants us to remember when we pray to also forgive (like, on a regular).

Mediate · Nov 26, 2012

The hardest part is letti.g go of trying to force and squeeze others into the mould we make for ourselves

Such a thing is what pharisees did.

'Change the law, tell people what to do, that is how we will be righteous. Make people into this mould and give harsh penalties if they dont obey'.

Let me tell you, God is no such God.

He will revisit our sins as a just God would. Through sight and truth, not whips and chains.

Mediate · Nov 26, 2012

Do you think Adam TOLD Eve what to do, or do you think he gave her the insight that God gave him in order for her to WANT to do the right thing?

If we dont WANT to do it, what's the point in doing it?

Oh yes God, Ill obey, but Im going to sulk and i dont really like the people im helping, but if it gets me to heaven then i suppose .....

Such a thing is pointless.

Only a mask.

Eccl12and13 · Nov 27, 2012

People.... let's use just a little common sense and scripture.

Do you believe that ALL of the apostles were perfect and NEVER sinned after receiving the knowledge of the Lord and the Holy Spirit?

Do you believe that God would deny one entrance into His kingdom for inadvertent sins; sins they were not aware of?

Did not Jesus command us to ask for forgiveness when we pray?

Let's read a question I presented....

I didn't ask about one, two or 87 committed sins with request for forgiveness. I asked about DELIBERATE SIN until death?

Now.....let's read the scriptures again and then read some of the actions of Paul.

Heb.10
[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Again...God's word tells us what will happen if we sin willfully. Now let's read some of the actions of Paul.

Rom.7
[15] For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Above Paul tells us there are times when he KNOWS he is breaking the laws of God; he knows for a fact that he is committing a sin. How do we know this? Let's paraphrase the above;

"For that which I do..." (The actions that I do), "... I allow not..." (I do not do those things), "...for what I would..." (For the things that I should do and want to do; obey the laws of God), "...that do I not..." (I do not do them), "...but what I hate..." (But those things that I hate; breaking God's law or sinning), "...that do I..." (These are the things I end up doing)

Now let's confirm it is God's laws that Paul knows he is breaking. Let's read the next verse;

[16] If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

And again....let's paraphrase;

"If then I do that which I would not..." (If I do those things that I know I should not do), "...I consent unto the law that it is good..." (I agree or confirm that God's laws are good).

And why does Paul agree that God's laws are good? It is because of the knowledge of God's laws that condemns him. This feeling of knowing what he is doing is wrong comes from knowing God's laws.

Now.....Paul STILL struggled with keeping God's laws AFTER coming into the knowledge of the truth. Do you think Paul continued to do what he hated...or after awhile did he do his best to NOT do those things which were sins in the eyes of God?

Now.....do you believe God would have forgiven Paul if he CONTINUED to knowingly break His laws?

We ALL sin...even those that have the Holy Spirit, just as Paul tells us he did. Which is why Jesus commands us to ask for forgiveness when we pray.

Which leads me to the other question that I presented. Here it is AGAIN:

Readers.....let's use common sense for just awhile.

God is a loving and forgiving God. But He does have as limit. He does have a point at which He will say ENOUGH! For some it may be just once or twice. For others it may be several or even hundreds or thousands of times.

God does not contradict Himself. He will forgive sins BUT.....He will also come to a point when He says enough and punish those that sin against Him!

But does any of us know when enough will be enough? Do WE know that number?

.

Eccl12and13 · Nov 27, 2012

Readers....let's be real for a moment and ask ourselves the following questions....

How many people just enjoy admitting when they are wrong and going to say you are sorry?

How many people just love it when they know their enemies are attacking them, but they say nothing?

How many people just cannot wait to have their feelings hurt undeserving, and sit back and take it with a smile?

How many wake up in the morning and say to themselves..... "I can't wait to have to turn my cheek today?"

NONE of us look forward to doing those things mentioned above....and many more. And PLEASE do not insult us and tell us you do it because you just, "...WANT to do the right thing?"!

Why do we do it?

We do it because we know it's the RIGHT thing to do! We do it because God COMMANDS that we do it! We do it because it is God's LAW!

We do it because we know if we do not it will keep us from getting into God's kingdom.

.

unclefester · Nov 27, 2012

Eccl12and13 said:

Readers....let's be real for a moment and ask ourselves the following questions....
How many people just enjoy admitting when they are wrong and going to say you are sorry?
How many people just love it when they know their enemies are attacking them, but they say nothing?
How many people just cannot wait to have their feelings hurt undeserving, and sit back and take it with a smile?
How many wake up in the morning and say to themselves..... "I can't wait to have to turn my cheek today?"
NONE of us look forward to doing those things mentioned above....and many more. And PLEASE do not insult us and tell us you do it because you just, "...WANT to do the right thing?"!

Why do we do it?
We do it because we know it's the RIGHT thing to do! We do it because God COMMANDS that we do it! We do it because it is God's LAW!
We do it because we know if we do not it will keep us from getting into God's kingdom.

I try to do it because I love Him who first loved me. I don't always succeed though.

Mediate · Nov 27, 2012

Of course i look forward to those things. It is in the hardest days that i become insightful of my reaction.

I want to do it because it is better to turn the other cheek than to fight. Fighting shows no love and hatred begets hatred.

Mediate · Nov 27, 2012

I have become to a point where i no longer am adverse, i simply pity the people who hurt me. They do it because of their own pain. Their unmet needs. Or because they dont realise

Grandpa · Nov 27, 2012

Mediate said:

They are trapped in their sins and are in need of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Eccl12and13 · Nov 28, 2012

Mediate said:

You know. Jesus was the same way......up to a point.

Even Jesus got mad.

Matt.21
[12] And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
[13] And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Even Jesus did NOT want to die.

Matt.26
[39] And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
[42] He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
[44] And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

Readers..... Jesus did NOT want to die. This was NOT something He was looking forward to. He did it because He HAD to do it. It was commanded from the Father.

If Jesus did NOT go through with this one commandment He would have sinned!

Like I said readers....we do not all look forward to doing those things that are sometimes commanded of us. We do them because we know it is God's law!

.

Mediate · Nov 29, 2012

Jesus did what he didnt want to do, for the sake of others. Not for his own salvation.

haz · Nov 29, 2012

Eccl12and13 said:

Actually it's not "common sense" that is required, as that is based all upon the physical and the physical man considers spiritual understanding to be foolishness. Instead 1Cor 2:14 tells us scripture is spiritually discerned.

Eccl12and13 said:

Yes !
They:
"ceased from sin" 1Pet 4:1
"cannot sin" 1John 3:9
They were "perfected" Heb 10:14

This is referring to their new creation in Christ. (As for their imperfect physical lives, it is dead/crucified with Christ, by faith).

Eccl12and13 said:

To sin is to transgress the law.
But remember that what the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19

Hence Christians cannot be charged with sin/transgression as we are not under the law, (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 5:18)

The law was not made for Christians, 1Tim 1:9.
Instead, the law was made for the ungodly/sinners/unholy/profane/whoremongers/murderers/liars/those that defile themselves/perjured persons.

If Christ delivered us from the law (Rom 7:6) why then do you seek to be under it considering who it was made for?

Eccl12and13 said:

You misunderstand Rom 7.
Paul spoke of the battle within us, Rom 7:23. Paul describes how Christ has delivered us, Rom 7:6, 24,25.
And, as Rom 7:25 shows, with the mind (Spirit) we serve the law of God. This is speaking of Christ in us.
But if we are led by the flesh, then it's the law of sin we serve.
And note Rom 8:9 confirming that we are not in the flesh, but we are in the Spirit instead.

Eccl12and13 said:

Do you have any scripture to back up your claim of God's varying limits of forgiveness?
Jesus told us to forgive 7x70. Is God less forgiving?
Your last sentence above shows your doctrine does not have any answer. Instead it preaches doubt in ones salvation based on the ambiguity of whether one has lived a perfect enough level of obedience to the law (that we are not even under).

Eccl12and13 · Nov 29, 2012

haz said:

What do you mean when you claim we are not under the law?

Which law are we not under?

.

haz · Nov 29, 2012

Eccl12and13 said:

You are trying to separate the law into 2 to try to avoid how scripture contradicts your doctrine. This is error.

And scripture still contradicts you as under your doctrine Christians are still charged with sin in spite of the following:
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Rom 8:33
If the Son therefore shall make you free (from sin), ye shall be free indeed. John 8:36
For he that is dead is freed from sin. Rom 6:7
We have ceased from sin (1Pet 4:1), cannot sin (1john 6:9)

gotime · Nov 29, 2012

Jesus reference to 7x70 is actually a reference to a prophecy in Daniel.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

God gave them seventy weeks. weeks are 7 days. so 70x7 to stop breaking the law by making an end to sin and to bring in everlasting righteousness. Hence the reason God at the end of this time no longer accepted Israel as a nation. though Jews can still be saved but the nation is not longer chosen.

DavidF · Nov 29, 2012

Who is Paul? What gives him authority to abrogate God's holy law?

I agree with the author of this thread, Paul did NOT die to the Law nor did he preach that anyone should reject any part of the Law. If he did, then I would have to reject Paul and cling to YHWH. Yeshua FULFILLED the sacrifices so they are already done - He did not do away with the sacrifices, He already did them so there is no reason to sacrifice again what has already been sacrificed. All the rest is still in effect.

Paul says Rom 3:31:
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid * : yea, we establish the law.

God's holy Law is forever and no one, not even God Himself, could change "one jot or one tittle until all is fulfilled".

DavidF · Nov 29, 2012

Not being "under the Law" is one of those tricky mistranslations. It should be translated-- not under the POWER of the Law. The Law cannot kill us anymore because we are covered by the Blood. We still Obey the Law, not out of fear but out of Love.

Grandpa · Nov 30, 2012

DavidF said:

Who is Paul? What gives him authority to abrogate God's holy law?

I agree with the author of this thread, Paul did NOT die to the Law nor did he preach that anyone should reject any part of the Law. If he did, then I would have to reject Paul and cling to YHWH. Yeshua FULFILLED the sacrifices so they are already done - He did not do away with the sacrifices, He already did them so there is no reason to sacrifice again what has already been sacrificed. All the rest is still in effect.

Paul says Rom 3:31:
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid * : yea, we establish the law.

God's holy Law is forever and no one, not even God Himself, could change "one jot or one tittle until all is fulfilled".

What is the difference between what you are saying and the Jew who is going to synagogue and no longer sacrificing animals???

DavidF · Nov 30, 2012

Not too much. Jesus was a Jew and never indicated we should be anything else. The major difference is I believe Messiah has come. I disagree greatly with the Catholics that we should put away Jewish things. I think all Christians should essentially be like first century Messianic Jews (without the Talmud).

Grandpa · Nov 30, 2012

DavidF said:

The Jewish things certainly have a lot to teach us.

I don't think we should put away the Jewish things until we come to the knowledge of the Truth.

Paul did NOT die to the law!

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