Spiritual gifts DEAD after 200 A.D.? What about these verses, cessationists?

GreenNnice · Dec 4, 2012

This is cessationism ONLY in this thread, BASED ON THIS VERSE AND OUTSIDE VERSES REFERENCE TO THIS VERSE, said in Love

take your Love talk somewhere else, LOL. No, seriously, and, sure, you know me, green, my heart, it is soulfully after He who saved me and shows of Himself often in my life, I believe

But, yes, your opinion, pleasez, and, by all means, use Scripture to show your point. Here are the verses, what do these verses say to you regarding cessationism. Are they in support of it, or, not?

Charity=Love.

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

A few questions (please, by ALL means, pose your own

) for you now, now that you've read the verses, questions posted in the 'speak from God' thread, but, again, this thread is more in caliber with its topic of spiritual gifts, which cessationists believe were DONE AWAY WITH after the long ago, apostolic (2nd century, 200 A.D.) age of apostle Paul, Peter, and, John.

1. What time is this passage in?

2. What is 'perfect to come?' Is it a 'what' even?

3. Why do YOU believe the way you do? Cessassionist or Continuationist.

No COMMENTARIES, just find Scripture, for now. The Lord leads, can't we just all GIT along, little peepies.

--------()-------
This is a polite request, I would like those that believe in spiritual gifts being done away with after the 2nd century to answer these verses without going to anyone's commentary.

Maybe, this is not fair, sorry, I pray that it's not my asking this, but His, I want to know what, ALL THESE YEARS, could be changed of your disbelief in God's ability to Holy Spirit work through you via spiritual gifts He gives you, pleaee, use this set of 1 Cor. 13 verses above listed and any other verses YOU find.

Like here is one supporting verse for my 'continuasionist' view of this passage:

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

God bless you, Christ peeps, be kind, one to another, please, amen.

Jon4TheCross · Dec 4, 2012

I'm not really hip on current terms, but I would guess that I would be lotted in with the continuasionists.

Honestly, I don't know who in their right mind could honestly say that all spiritual gifts are done away with in our current situation and circumstances. I do agree that we are lacking in some areas, but I don't see the spiritual gifts as non existant at all. I offer this reasoning. We have been given an example to follow, and part of that example is spiritual gifts, and part of that example is all things common, equality, no respect of persons, etc. I see that the church picks and chooses what verses to live according to, and which examples to follow. Buffett style.

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

We are still the Church. The apostles are still alive. The prophets are still alive. The teachers are still alive (you get the point).
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

GreenNnice · Dec 4, 2012

Jon4TheCross said:

Note: let's lay off the 'like' button, too, for this thread. No 'like' response.

Just...

1. Give your answers to the questions in Opening Post. (Again, thinking of your own Qs is fine, too )

2. Speak in Love, you can speak 'Love,' into your answers, too, I just would like the 1 Cor. 13 overriding theme of 'charity,' a.k.a. Love, overridden by your understanding of what's baked into the middle: spiritual gifts

3. No commentaries LISTED via copy/paste, and, I prefer you freshly read the verses listed and give your cessassionist or continuationist opinion, as you are led, which is EITHER by Spirit guidance (based SOLELY on Scripture and the being stewards of His 'mysteries') for continuationist, and, by 'Sola Scriptura,'(Scripture alone gives us all miracles, all healings, services, works, prophecy) as Jimdig put it, for cessationists.

God bless your findings, may we all approach this study humbly, worshipping Him, partaking of His Scripture as we learn altogether from Him.

cfultz3 · Dec 4, 2012

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Georgia, serif]For edification:[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Georgia, serif]1Co 12:28[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] And God hath set some in the church, first [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]apostles (delete)[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif], secondarily [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]prophets (delete)[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif], thirdly teachers, after that [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]miracles (delete)[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif], then [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]gifts of healings (delete)[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif], helps, governments, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]diversities of tongues (delete)[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif].[/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT]

GreenNnice · Dec 4, 2012

cfultz3 said:

Absolutely, this thread is to condemn NO ONE, just to point out through VERSE AND OWN THOUGHT how two widely differing views (not belief that is damning) of how the sprituality of their worship for Truth, to God, a Spirit, comes unto being.
Absolutely, edification.

If you are not being edified, pray why not, the Lord, one way or another, will lead you to the Love of His Truth for you.

And, IF edification cannot come, that is Him, not I, saying ,'Go.'

Don't ever go where you can be taken out of mind and spirit from producing fruit, for all your nutrients come diVINE from Him

Jon4TheCross · Dec 4, 2012

Perhaps I should not be in this conversation, as I do not claim either, just being born again (from heaven). What are cessationists saying is not extistant?

eternally-gratefull · Dec 4, 2012

GreenNnice said:

1. What time is this passage in? Pre-completion of the canon of scripture (Ie, New revelation was still being given)

2. What is 'perfect to come?' Is it a 'what' even? Canon of Scripture - Gods revelation to us is complete. it has been perfected. there is no more need of new revelationion from this point forward.

3. Why do YOU believe the way you do? Cessassionist or Continuationist. - God used these gifts as a means to bring people to him, Jesus went to the people, used these gifts to bring people to him. and this gave him an opportunity to teach them. The apostles did the same. They did not invite people into their presence and do these gifts. they went into these cities and areas and performed them to bring people to them. If God used these same gifts today, he would not do it as the people who claim they are real say he would do it. He would have these healers go into the hospitals. And heal people, and in doing so draw people to hear the message. They would go into the inner city, where the poor and depraved people need him, and draw them to his message. He would send them into any group of people who do nto know him, and use these gifts to show them first something which would open their eyes (like prophesy tongues or healing) and then give the gospel message to these people who dearly need them. SHow me someone doing this. And I may believe these gifts are still active. (I actually do believe God in a 3rd world country could and has used these gifts in limited function to do just this) but to people who know God and his message, and have free access to the word of God. I do not see it. Those who claim it is real are not even doing it the way God used it, then get angry at us who say they do not happen anymore.

cfultz3 · Dec 4, 2012

Jon4TheCross said:

Cessationists believe that some, if not all, of the gifts from the Spirit has ceased for whatever reason, mostly because of the completion of Canon (Bible).

zone · Dec 4, 2012

i'm not interested in personal opinions and private interpretations.

or a prohibition on

1) understanding the apostolic age in historical context as historical narrative
2) inserting ourselves into the apostolic era because we think we can perform miracles or because we make unintelligible noises and call them tongues.
3) what scholars and other christians have to say.

Eisegesis is a horrible way to get to the truth.
exit thread.

zone · Dec 4, 2012

zone said:

correction:

or a prohibition on

1) understanding the apostolic age in historical context as historical narrative
2) what scholars and other christians have to say.

inserting ourselves into the apostolic era because we think we can perform miracles or because we make unintelligible noises and call them tongues is awful scholarship. existentialist naïveté

eisegesis is a horrible way to get to the truth. but that's not the idea anyway. the idea is to make sure we can be prophets and stuff....
exit stage left.

webchatter · Dec 4, 2012

The" perfect to come" Is Jesus Christ's 2nd coming.

carolineh · Dec 4, 2012

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

A few questions (please, by ALL means, pose your own ) for you now, now that you've read the verses, questions posted in the 'speak from God' thread, but, again, this thread is more in caliber with its topic of spiritual gifts, which cessationists believe were DONE AWAY WITH after the long ago, apostolic (2nd century, 200 A.D.) age of apostle Paul, Peter, and, John.

1. What time is this passage in? Pre-completion of the canon of scripture (Ie, New revelation was still being given)

2. What is 'perfect to come?' Is it a 'what' even? Canon of Scripture - Gods revelation to us is complete. it has been perfected. there is no more need of new revelationion from this point forward.

3. Why do YOU believe the way you do? Cessassionist or Continuationist. I believe that God used miraculous giftings to authenticate that the apostles authority to bring God's word to the people truly was from God and no other source..now that we have the full revelation of Jesus through the writings of the apostles there is no need for any further or new revelation to be authorized and authenticated so the gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge did cease..prophesy and knowledge pertain to direct revelations of God, His will and His word and tongues pertain to the proclamation of these things instantly in dialects that have never been learned by the one gifted in tongues

feedm3 · Dec 5, 2012

Future concerning the departure of gifts.

Present concerning the continuing love.

"That which is perfect" is the word of God. "That" is neuter form, and Christ is never referred to as that, but rather "He" - Masculine form, never neuter.

The word "perfect" comes from the Greek word "teleios", which means "complete, full of age, mature".

It is the same word here rendered as "full age":

Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
So Paul says literally, "when that which is complete is come, that which is in part shall be done away"

So Lets see where else "teleios" (perfect) is found, and see what it applies to:

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

1Co 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men (<---"men" is from Teleios - perfect).

Jas 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Notice in these passages that which is perfect, is the level of understanding people get, from the perfect word of God.

The "unity of the faith". Before the Bible was complete, God gave the church special knowledge, and prophets. Yet the HS was guiding men as they wrote the NT.

These gifts that were given until this time, were only given while the Bible was imperfect (incomplete), till we all come to the UNITY of the faith (all the letters of the bible unified, canonized into the book we know have). There are no longer gifts, because they have fulfilled their purpose.

Now it is by the word of God man can be perfect (complete):

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles(Matthew, Paul etc);
and some, prophets (Isa, Jer, even Luke);
and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;(Peter apostle and elder, James, Elder and writer in the NT).

Notice all of these are now found in scripture. Before God used these prophets to speak, but now we read their words, so in that sense they are still speaking to us - Heb 1:1

Eph 4:12 For the perfecting(<--complete furnishing) of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith (<--all the letters together), and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect(complete) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works

Gifts were partial, the Bible is complete. Able to make us complete because of the complete or "perfect law of liberty".

GreenNnice · Dec 5, 2012

1. Paul's time. (Dumb question. Who asked that ?

)
2. Perfect, Webchatterer.
3. Do I really need to say?

Why don't those who read this Scripture take it at 'face' value?
How can this 'perfect to come' be talking about the completion of Scripture, the context seems overwhelmingly in support of 'perfect to come,' being Jesus, whom we wait for to come back 'unto a perfect day,' as I already noted proverbs verse, of this partial quote, in OP.

I am glad, eg, that there is a sliver of thinking that healings and miracles do go on in some Third Worlds. But, what about here, we are a rich country, USA (psst, don't tell China), but there is soo much need, the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer, no? If 'state of living' is a condition, we have our state that's not far off

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three;

Which words cause you to see the imperfection of continuatiinists saying the 'perfect to come' is Jesus', when He comes again, when the Holy Spirit will no longer be on earth.

Doesn't the Holy Spirit leave after the rapture ? There is no Holy Spirit for the 7 years (70 weeks) after the rapture. It's gonna be hell on earth, too, sorry, if that offends, just prayerfully making a point, the Lord leads this thought, I hope, I pray , but, yes, there will be much, much HORROR in that 7 years, horses of deathly consequence, bowls of ominous plagues, won't 1/3 of the 8 billion now human race be wiped, too. My eschatology, sorry, again IF I offend.

carolineh · Dec 5, 2012

the perfect that come is not referring to Jesus because He already came and He is perfect...it would say the perfect that comes AGAIN if it was talking about Jesus

GreenNnice · Dec 5, 2012

carolineh said:

Right, His time THAT is perfect. This IS Jesus' return.
Hmmm, Yes, the 'again' is answered sweetcarol in the 'face to face,' verse , see it now, that is, the perfect connection

Oh, goood, it's getting good now

carolineh · Dec 5, 2012

that which is perfect is the perfect time that is come...the perfect time for what....that which denotes that there is a thing, object or subject that is to come...time is not a thing, object or subject...it is a measurement

loveme1 · Dec 5, 2012

I consider he talks about his eternal life.

i read this and do not see that it means those gifts to be done away with rather that they are temporary while we abide.

Charity being the fruit of a Good Spirit that will go with us always into eternal life where we will have no need to speak tongues or have phrophecies... we will have no need for those gifts.... the perfect will have come.

1 Corinthians 13

feedm3 · Dec 5, 2012

Green, I ask the same question about those who think it is talking about Jesus.

Take a close look at the context and notice the problems the Cornitinans were making.

1. The Corinthians were coveting the wrong gifts, the partial gifts that were temporary.

They were placing those who had gifts above others, and paul corrects this.

This is the point Paul is making, the temporary gifts were going to cease, and the eternal gift of love would always continue, which gift they should want more than tongues.

Notice:
1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
1Co 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

The problem :
1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1Co 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
1Co 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
1Co 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
1Co 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
1Co 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

He is saying, Do not think those without the ability to perform miracles (gifts) are useless.

He shows them to covet that which is forever, not that which is temporary:
1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Chapter 13 is a continuation of 12, Paul continues in this context:
1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. (the red text is all those that Paul says will cease)

1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth:(Continues forever, Contrasted with the gifts that are termporary) but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. <--Perfect is love, forever, can only know how to love with complete word of God - Jn 14:15

1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

If "that which is perfect is referring to Christ, then When Christ comes will "all knowledge vanish away" as is says will happen in 13:2?
Will heaven be a place void of knowledge?

And why would it not say when "he who is perfect"? Why is Jesus called "that"?

The context of 12 and 13 is not concerning the 2nd coming, but the ceasing of gifts, and the continuance of Love. His whole point to the Corinthians was for them to understand they see in part but when the unity of the faith comes we can be complete if we choose to walk in the light. Sense the faith is complete, we have no reason why we cannot do so.

If we still only see in part, then how can the word make us "perfect" when that which is perfect has not come? -- Col 1:28, II Tim 3:16

Green, these are just my questions, and why I dont believe they do not still exist. Not trying to argue, just giving my reasons (smiley face).

loveme1 · Dec 5, 2012

Proverbs 4

i had not noticed this line before i typed up....

Spiritual gifts DEAD after 200 A.D.? What about these verses, cessationists?

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