Revelation 20:1-10 discussion
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no Bud.
we DO know the prophesies literally come to pass.
literally.
it's not Amils who allegorize, it's God who did it in scripture, bud
allegorize isn't a correct or fair term: it is symbolic language representing or explaining a literal thing person or event.
but the Israel of God is first and foremost JESUS, and includes His body, the church, which is made up of all kindred tongues and nations, including jews...they were the firstfruits!
as for ppl going to earthly Jerusalem once a year....do we really believe that billions of Christians will fit into Jerusalem that now is?
we DO know the prophesies literally come to pass.
literally.
it's not Amils who allegorize, it's God who did it in scripture, bud
allegorize isn't a correct or fair term: it is symbolic language representing or explaining a literal thing person or event.but the Israel of God is first and foremost JESUS, and includes His body, the church, which is made up of all kindred tongues and nations, including jews...they were the firstfruits!
as for ppl going to earthly Jerusalem once a year....do we really believe that billions of Christians will fit into Jerusalem that now is?
E
hey buddy
First, just this, cuz like you said, we've done this before but what's cool is that we're narrowing it down.
love kat.
Quote Zone:
70AD
and the people [ROMANS] of the prince [TITUS] that shall come shall destroy the city [JERUSALEM] and the sanctuary [TEMPLE]; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined....
but EG - it says right here:
and the people [ROMAN SOLDIERS] of the prince [TITUS - eventually became Caesar] that shall come shall destroy the city...
Titus didn't destroy the city all by himself, he brought his "people" with him < military
and they did, right? those are Roman soldiers carrying away the spoils.
the Jewish Church went out - grew into the Worldwide Church including the Gentiles, and now there is neither jew nor greek.
First, just this, cuz like you said, we've done this before but what's cool is that we're narrowing it down.
love kat.
Quote Zone:
70AD
and the people [ROMANS] of the prince [TITUS] that shall come shall destroy the city [JERUSALEM] and the sanctuary [TEMPLE]; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined....
but EG - it says right here:
and the people [ROMAN SOLDIERS] of the prince [TITUS - eventually became Caesar] that shall come shall destroy the city...
Titus didn't destroy the city all by himself, he brought his "people" with him < military
and they did, right? those are Roman soldiers carrying away the spoils.
the Jewish Church went out - grew into the Worldwide Church including the Gentiles
, and now there is neither jew nor greek.
people of the prince who is to come. means that the same people group of a future prince will destroy the city. Rome destroyed the city, they are the people. The future prince will be the future leader of rome.
this is how I see it.
And the people (Kingdom, or world power) of the prince who is to come (future prince, who will come out of these people)
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. (Jerusalem and the Temple)
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined. (Wars and rumors of wars, nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, but the end is not yet)
27 Then he (the prince who is to come, who comes out of the kingdom of people who destroyed the city and sanctuary) shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; (7 years)
But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, (mentioned by Christ in matt 24)
Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.” (Great tribulation, followed by return of Christ (again see matt 24)
they DID receive everything Promised. all of it.
including Jesus Finishing His Work on their behalf.
if it isn't Finished for them, it isn't Finished for us.
the israelites returned to the Land just as Daniel was told they would, in time for....JESUS
The King came, and the Kingdom came with Him.
Jesus declared old jerusalem desolate, there nothing at all that says He intends it to be taken by jews (Q: who is a jew?) again on His behalf. it's not there.
including Jesus Finishing His Work on their behalf.
if it isn't Finished for them, it isn't Finished for us.
the israelites returned to the Land just as Daniel was told they would, in time for....JESUS
The King came, and the Kingdom came with Him.
Jesus declared old jerusalem desolate, there nothing at all that says He intends it to be taken by jews (Q: who is a jew?) again on His behalf. it's not there.
again, this is opinion. God never promised abraham all his people would be saved, he promised they would all be given things according to Gods promise, this is still binding because it was an eternal covenant. God did not say, and all your people will be saved, anbd this is the sign (circumcision) he said I give you and your descendents after you this land as an eternal covenant. God did not remove this promise. and it is still binding.
Ok, so if I am to understand, what is being said here......
Part has occered
Part is happening
And part is to come.
If this is the case, could some one give a simple, very simple
kind of guide to understand this.But dont quote me as revelations has always been difficult for me.
I have often considered that as with all prophacy, little is understood untill it occers.
That understanding comes with happening, so God will be glorified, and we can be edified.
Thankyou so much, and sorry to need so much help here.
God bless
pickles
if i make a super simple illustration, please don't do anything with it other than to consider it.
i don't claim to know every detail.
here's what i believe it looks like:
OT - "times past" > real literal people and events, obviously > contains shadows and types of Jesus and His salvation.
First Advent> .. Jesus IS NEW COVENANT>...end Old Covenant as planned, 70AD...a long period of time (2000 years and counting) < Messianic Age....THEN satan's little time/short space (released/unrestrained)> Second Advent < "end of this age"
Second Advent- Judgment for unbelievers, joy for believers > eternity > "the age/world to come" (New Heaven and New Earth, New Jerusalem).
~
don't 'just accept' what i have said, Pickles.
stay neutral, or do with it as you will: adjust, ponder; reject; accept.
love zone.
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i know EG. not my own though.
let's keep the love.
we're all trying to understand.
so you have to have a future Temple then.
Since Jesus came, do you think God will approve another Temple in Jerusalem for the New Pharisees who still hate Jesus?
why the rerun of what's already happened?
mkay.
But it was Jesus who confirmed the New Covenant promise.
the First Time.
okay.....so if that's how it goes down, there's a Third Temple to be built, then a Fourth for the Millennium?
because supposedly there's another rerun...satan rallies the world AGAIN....and there's sin and rebellion through the Millennium.
it's just a rerun: GAPS - thanks to Scofield and Co. who was financed by Zionists.
this is carnal kingdom stuff EG.
Galatians 3
The Law and the Promise
15To give a human example, brothers:f even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
what is Paul saying, here?
let's keep the love.
we're all trying to understand.
so you have to have a future Temple then.
Since Jesus came, do you think God will approve another Temple in Jerusalem for the New Pharisees who still hate Jesus?
why the rerun of what's already happened?
mkay.
But it was Jesus who confirmed the New Covenant promise.
the First Time.
okay.....so if that's how it goes down, there's a Third Temple to be built, then a Fourth for the Millennium?
because supposedly there's another rerun...satan rallies the world AGAIN....and there's sin and rebellion through the Millennium.
it's just a rerun: GAPS - thanks to Scofield and Co. who was financed by Zionists.
this is carnal kingdom stuff EG.
Galatians 3
The Law and the Promise
15To give a human example, brothers:f even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
what is Paul saying, here?
E
The kingdom will show the world how it was supposed to be before Adam fell. As I said, Animals will live in peace. the world will live in peace. Evil will be done away with. People will see God for true he really is, and not the God satan makes him out to be (who will be bound by the way, so he can not decieve the people at this time with his lies and half truths)
Who said he is gonna be wooping people? Iron rod is a symbol for authority and power. If God has restored things to the way they were supposed to be, he will not have to woop them. they will follow him willingly.
Who said he is gonna be wooping people? Iron rod is a symbol for authority and power. If God has restored things to the way they were supposed to be, he will not have to woop them. they will follow him willingly.
The wheat and tears grow up together.
The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’” (Dispensationalism teaches that the wheat is gather first)
The wheat and tares grow (live on earth) together. Compare this to:
Isaiah 65:25
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, (the tares and the wheat)
The lion shall eat straw like the ox,
And dust shall be the serpent’s food. (Satan bound, but still eating dust, hmm)
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,” (the gates of hades shall not prevail against the Church)
Says the Lord.
Something to think about.
The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’” (Dispensationalism teaches that the wheat is gather first)
The wheat and tares grow (live on earth) together. Compare this to:
Isaiah 65:25
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, (the tares and the wheat)
The lion shall eat straw like the ox,
And dust shall be the serpent’s food. (Satan bound, but still eating dust, hmm)
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,” (the gates of hades shall not prevail against the Church)
Says the Lord.
Something to think about.
E
I meant those who believe as you do, not you personally. forgive me if I came across wrong.
Isreal is trying to rebuild a temple as we speak. If they would rebuild it tomorrow, would we be asking the same questions? I never said they would rebuild it because they repented. they are still in sin. Scripture does not say so either. I am not as darby and scofield says, one who believes Isreal is saved under their law, and will return to be saved this way. I think they do if because of sin. And as always in their history, the abomination, the major coming at them by the beast and other things spoken of in prophesy gets them to open their eyes. And causes them to repent.
Remember, Isreal even after babylon was never fully restored to her own land, She lived under the rule of the gentile kingdoms who she was enslaved under. Yet that did not get them to change and repent. because they were still in sin.
mkay, but it does not say it is the messiah, It does not say it was the covenant of promise, and the mere fact that Jesus did not confirm a covenant for 1 week should show us it is not him, Jesus confirmed the new covenant forever with his death did he not? When messiah was "cut off" at the end of the 69th week, the covenant was already confirmed, when he arose three days later. The covenant made by the prince happens after the city is destroyed also. Again, I can not make this covenant be the one with Christ, it does not fit.
4th? where do you get this? I never said there would be a fourth. Scripture speaks of only three..
no this would be after the millennium, it is at the end satan is released.
i Forgive me for pointing this out my friend. But words like this you are being like red here.
Gaps are inferred, remember, prophesy looks forward to events. If there was a GAP, there would be no way to know, because it would not be seen, only the events.
Scripture speaks of a messiah, and a suffering servant. The truth was hidden from us that they are the same person.
the suffering servant came to remove sin, the messiah would come to rule and give peace. The messiah has not come yet and done what the OT said he would do. Thats why no one understood what he came to do. Thus two comings, with a gap inbetween. Thus we already have a gap.
Paul is saying, that in you shall all the nations of the world be blessed. referred to Christ. That being a jew did not automatically save you. But that was just one aspect of the promise. We can not ignore the rest.
again God did not say all people given the land would be saved, it had nothing to do with them being saved, yet the land promise was still given, not to save them, but as a gift to abraham for what he did. And his people
Isreal is trying to rebuild a temple as we speak. If they would rebuild it tomorrow, would we be asking the same questions? I never said they would rebuild it because they repented. they are still in sin. Scripture does not say so either. I am not as darby and scofield says, one who believes Isreal is saved under their law, and will return to be saved this way. I think they do if because of sin. And as always in their history, the abomination, the major coming at them by the beast and other things spoken of in prophesy gets them to open their eyes. And causes them to repent.
Remember, Isreal even after babylon was never fully restored to her own land, She lived under the rule of the gentile kingdoms who she was enslaved under. Yet that did not get them to change and repent. because they were still in sin.
mkay, but it does not say it is the messiah, It does not say it was the covenant of promise, and the mere fact that Jesus did not confirm a covenant for 1 week should show us it is not him, Jesus confirmed the new covenant forever with his death did he not? When messiah was "cut off" at the end of the 69th week, the covenant was already confirmed, when he arose three days later. The covenant made by the prince happens after the city is destroyed also. Again, I can not make this covenant be the one with Christ, it does not fit.
okay.....so if that's how it goes down, there's a Third Temple to be built, then a Fourth for the Millennium?
no this would be after the millennium, it is at the end satan is released.
i Forgive me for pointing this out my friend. But words like this you are being like red here.
Gaps are inferred, remember, prophesy looks forward to events. If there was a GAP, there would be no way to know, because it would not be seen, only the events.
Scripture speaks of a messiah, and a suffering servant. The truth was hidden from us that they are the same person.
the suffering servant came to remove sin, the messiah would come to rule and give peace. The messiah has not come yet and done what the OT said he would do. Thats why no one understood what he came to do. Thus two comings, with a gap inbetween. Thus we already have a gap.
Paul is saying, that in you shall all the nations of the world be blessed. referred to Christ. That being a jew did not automatically save you. But that was just one aspect of the promise. We can not ignore the rest.
again God did not say all people given the land would be saved, it had nothing to do with them being saved, yet the land promise was still given, not to save them, but as a gift to abraham for what he did. And his people
E
I do not see this
The lion shall eat straw like the ox,
And dust shall be the serpent’s food. (Satan bound, but still eating dust, hmm)
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,” (the gates of hades shall not prevail against the Church)
Says the Lord.[/quote]
a gate is not an offensive weapon, it is a defensive weapon. Used to keep the enemy out. Jesus spoke here of sending his church into the world (inside the gates of hades) to rescue his people out from them. jesus is saying he will tear the gates open himself., Thus it can not be used here.
and again, you are symbolically interpreting is, when I literally interpret it to mean what it is saying.
The holy mountain is Jerusalem. not a church. I will get to this more later when I have more time.
Something to think about.[/quote]
A
1 Corinthians 15:23-28
King James Version (KJV)
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ at His coming
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered UPThe Kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put allenemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is Death
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
How!!!!! can plain clear scripture be set aside for stories. This text alone
has to be shredded to have death, sin and war in a future kingdom where all enemies are not under His feel and where death still has sting. Which has clearly been said to happen BEFORE His coming. Read on
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?this could not be said with the Kingdom being future.
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
Peter had an interesting eschatology also ill be back.
King James Version (KJV)
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ at His coming
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered UPThe Kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put allenemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is Death
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
How!!!!! can plain clear scripture be set aside for stories. This text alone
has to be shredded to have death, sin and war in a future kingdom where all enemies are not under His feel and where death still has sting. Which has clearly been said to happen BEFORE His coming. Read on
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?this could not be said with the Kingdom being future.
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
Peter had an interesting eschatology also ill be back.
If I am to prove all things and hold fast to that which is good, do I apply that to testing your life and if I disapprove after testing you, do I discard you as disapproved? Do I do that with all things and all people? In (Rom 1) God has disapproved those He has turned and given over to a reprobate mind. I do not approve of your understanding about these things and think you to be off-base, therefore I reject your understanding completely. If you are entreatable through meekness in the heart then progress can be made and growth is possible through grace and knowledge.
Study to show yourself approved, same word is used as to whether you pass the test of being examined according to the faith we have been given. Perhaps there are things that we let God test in relationship to the word and doctrine we have received. This is where the plan of God comes in and the situations He puts us in that we are to give godly counsel. This is a test as to whether what we have learned can be meet for the Master's use and can be used to edify and build up in Christ. False doctrine and wrong understanding has no capacity to build up and edify in the truth, so there would be no worship in spirit and truth. This would only tend to promote division instead of likemindedness and the heart would be without the conversion it needs through the word and Spirit. Try that on and see if you approve.
Study to show yourself approved, same word is used as to whether you pass the test of being examined according to the faith we have been given. Perhaps there are things that we let God test in relationship to the word and doctrine we have received. This is where the plan of God comes in and the situations He puts us in that we are to give godly counsel. This is a test as to whether what we have learned can be meet for the Master's use and can be used to edify and build up in Christ. False doctrine and wrong understanding has no capacity to build up and edify in the truth, so there would be no worship in spirit and truth. This would only tend to promote division instead of likemindedness and the heart would be without the conversion it needs through the word and Spirit. Try that on and see if you approve.
A
Well said Red but you cant disaprove of what I believe because you really dont know or understand it.
If u believed what i believed there would be likemindedness right?
My 1 Cor 15 Post just above. Give me an honest reply on that if u can. Ive not done anything to
cause you to make this personal. But you have done that in everyway. Remember its a forum.
We debate in forums.
For you to make an end times belief parallel that with a reprobate mind is so Low and
foolish im thinking of never having any more interaction with you because youve gone beyond
reason.
Red if you want to examine bible verses together. And do it honestly id be more than willing.
If you want to just go here and that and unload your shotgun, and give speeches im not interested
in ever reading your posts.
Its a forum Red, a Forum! Get it?
If u believed what i believed there would be likemindedness right?
My 1 Cor 15 Post just above. Give me an honest reply on that if u can. Ive not done anything to
cause you to make this personal. But you have done that in everyway. Remember its a forum.
We debate in forums.
For you to make an end times belief parallel that with a reprobate mind is so Low and
foolish im thinking of never having any more interaction with you because youve gone beyond
reason.
Red if you want to examine bible verses together. And do it honestly id be more than willing.
If you want to just go here and that and unload your shotgun, and give speeches im not interested
in ever reading your posts.
Its a forum Red, a Forum! Get it?