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E
But isn't the matter of abortion a little more important than simply applying that verse (Prov 18:17) to whomever speaks first. I should hope that anyone that speaks in favor of killing babies is questioned by someone, anyone that holds their family values more closely to what the bible makes clear.
1
Yes abortion and gay marriage are evil, but so are a lot of other things. I just think some cherry pick these two issues and ignore many other issues that clearly violate God's laws too.
Folks who harp on these two issues to the exclusion of other important issues, make me wonder if their real concern is God's laws and standards or is their concern more political and they use these two issues to further their own agenda?
Folks who harp on these two issues to the exclusion of other important issues, make me wonder if their real concern is God's laws and standards or is their concern more political and they use these two issues to further their own agenda?
C
I'm not an avid McCain supporter, or Republican for that matter. I'm a Conservative mainly because of what that means in regards to my faith. That said, if you watched any of the coverage of Obama's church, that he attended for 20 years, and the "reverend" he listened to, I'd be hard pressed to vote for the man. His position of abortion should do it for you as well. And while I know that many Christians think liberalism and socialism especially are a great idea, the fact remains that we're no longer in the Garden of Eden, and these concepts don't work in a fallen world. Now I can see a Christian being a libertarian, but I can't see being a liberal. After that long ramble 
I can't see someone voting for Obama if they really thought it through.
I agree Still that both parties (and all politicians in general I would venture to say) violate quite a few of God's laws but it really does become a lesser of two evils. That sounds defeatist, but it's true. Also, since America isn't a theocracy, I feel like as Christians we have to look out for what's going to keep us as a nation as close to what's right as possible. Abortion is a major issue, because it deals with killing our most innocent.
I can't see someone voting for Obama if they really thought it through. I agree Still that both parties (and all politicians in general I would venture to say) violate quite a few of God's laws but it really does become a lesser of two evils. That sounds defeatist, but it's true. Also, since America isn't a theocracy, I feel like as Christians we have to look out for what's going to keep us as a nation as close to what's right as possible. Abortion is a major issue, because it deals with killing our most innocent.
1
I guess if folks are going to say some sins are greater than others, that may be fine, but upon doing that they are basically saying some sin is kinda bad and other sin is really bad. And that just flies in the face of what most of us say, when we say, "sin is sin".
Above all I'm just a stickler for intellectual honesty and consistency on issues like this. That's all
I voted for Chuck Baldwin for president this year because he seemed closer to any Christian standards than any of the other two candidates.
Above all I'm just a stickler for intellectual honesty and consistency on issues like this. That's all
I voted for Chuck Baldwin for president this year because he seemed closer to any Christian standards than any of the other two candidates.
1
Think about how this will carry out when you do evangelism.
You: Hi
Them:Hi
You: Are you saved from your sins?
Them: Me a sinner? What do you mean?
You: Have you ever lied, cheated, stolen stuff?
Them: Well yeah who hasn't?
You: Well that's sin and God's against it and you need salvation.
Them: Well yeah, but it's not like I murdered someone. I'm sure this isn't big stuff in God's eyes.
You: No no, sin is sin, it's all alike to God!
If you say some sin is worse to God than others, you can't say the last line in the dialogue.
You last line might look something like...
You: Yeah well you kinda got a point. You didn't murder someone, so I guess all that other stuff ya didn't really ain't that big a deal.
See the problem??
You: Hi
Them:Hi
You: Are you saved from your sins?
Them: Me a sinner? What do you mean?
You: Have you ever lied, cheated, stolen stuff?
Them: Well yeah who hasn't?
You: Well that's sin and God's against it and you need salvation.
Them: Well yeah, but it's not like I murdered someone. I'm sure this isn't big stuff in God's eyes.
You: No no, sin is sin, it's all alike to God!
If you say some sin is worse to God than others, you can't say the last line in the dialogue.
You last line might look something like...
You: Yeah well you kinda got a point. You didn't murder someone, so I guess all that other stuff ya didn't really ain't that big a deal.
See the problem??
1
Interesting. So in your eyes sin isn't sin? There are certain levels to sin? Fair enough. How does this carry out in your approach to evangelism then?
If someone says they haven't done any of the BIG ones, how can you really show their true need of salvation?
Remember, I'm looking for intellectual honesty and consistency here.
What you believe has to be able to pass in other areas.
If someone says they haven't done any of the BIG ones, how can you really show their true need of salvation?
Remember, I'm looking for intellectual honesty and consistency here.
What you believe has to be able to pass in other areas.
E
I'd rather not be intellectual but rather biblical so here goes: Isaiah 59:1,2 - Our sins and iniquities separate us from God, so He will not hear us.
Isn't that the point? I never said sin is not sin by the way. Just like the word Trinity, that is not stated in the bible either. The bible also never says simply, sin is sin, even steven. In fact, the bible gives more examples of a separation than an equality. 1 John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.
In terms of salvation, sin is sin in that it separates us from God, but not in terms of each sin individually and the issue politically is just as simple. The biblical views of both candidates were not even close to being on the level. I hate politics and so did the pilgrims when they sought to seek refuge from the suppression that plagued their religious beliefs but seriously. Obama:Abortion.... McCain:Life.
Isn't that the point? I never said sin is not sin by the way. Just like the word Trinity, that is not stated in the bible either. The bible also never says simply, sin is sin, even steven. In fact, the bible gives more examples of a separation than an equality. 1 John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.
In terms of salvation, sin is sin in that it separates us from God, but not in terms of each sin individually and the issue politically is just as simple. The biblical views of both candidates were not even close to being on the level. I hate politics and so did the pilgrims when they sought to seek refuge from the suppression that plagued their religious beliefs but seriously. Obama:Abortion.... McCain:Life.
1
Mccain was for a war in Iraq where many of our Christian soldiers were dying so people could have the right to worship Allah!
That's a violation of the FIRST and maybe THE greatest commandment, IF you were to ever categorize levels of sins.
By the way, if I sound like I'm mad, I'm not. Just a lil excited over here
That's a violation of the FIRST and maybe THE greatest commandment, IF you were to ever categorize levels of sins.
By the way, if I sound like I'm mad, I'm not. Just a lil excited over here
1
I'll list the commandments then give a brief yes or no if either of the major candidates violated them...
3 "You shall have no other gods before [a] me.
Mccain: Supported a war where Christian soldiers died for others to have the right to worship a false God.
Obama: He didn't support such a war. But did attend a church where a very different God was preached.
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
Mccain: I don't recall him bowing down to any idols.
Obama: Same for Obama.
You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name
Mccain: Supports freedom of speech that allows folks to say what they want and that includes speaking God's name wrongly.
Obama: The same for Obama
Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
Mccain: Pretty sure he worked and campaigned on the Sabbath.
Obama: Yeah he did too.
Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
Mccain: Went to the navy academy and did some pretty immoral things then cheated on his wife. That doesn't honor mother of father.
Obama: Did drugs in college. That doesn't honor mother of father either.
You shall not murder.
Mccain: Fought in a war. Some might call that murder. Was for the war in Iraq that killed thousands of innocents, many of whom were kids and women.
Obama: For abortion.
You shall not commit adultery
Mccain: Yeah he cheated on his wife before his present wife.
Obama: No record of him cheating on his wife.
You shall not steal
Mccain: Voted for the bailout.
Obama: Voted for the bailout
You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor
Mccain: Lied during the campaign about Obama
Obama: Did the same about Mccain
You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."
Mccain: He def coveted and cheated on his wife.
Obama: I'm sure he's guilty
3 "You shall have no other gods before [a] me.
Mccain: Supported a war where Christian soldiers died for others to have the right to worship a false God.
Obama: He didn't support such a war. But did attend a church where a very different God was preached.
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
Mccain: I don't recall him bowing down to any idols.
Obama: Same for Obama.
You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name
Mccain: Supports freedom of speech that allows folks to say what they want and that includes speaking God's name wrongly.
Obama: The same for Obama
Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
Mccain: Pretty sure he worked and campaigned on the Sabbath.
Obama: Yeah he did too.
Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
Mccain: Went to the navy academy and did some pretty immoral things then cheated on his wife. That doesn't honor mother of father.
Obama: Did drugs in college. That doesn't honor mother of father either.
You shall not murder.
Mccain: Fought in a war. Some might call that murder. Was for the war in Iraq that killed thousands of innocents, many of whom were kids and women.
Obama: For abortion.
You shall not commit adultery
Mccain: Yeah he cheated on his wife before his present wife.
Obama: No record of him cheating on his wife.
You shall not steal
Mccain: Voted for the bailout.
Obama: Voted for the bailout
You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor
Mccain: Lied during the campaign about Obama
Obama: Did the same about Mccain
You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."
Mccain: He def coveted and cheated on his wife.
Obama: I'm sure he's guilty
E
First of all, thanks for having this discussion with me, I'm not mad either. I will say this. McCain is NOT for the war and never said that he wanted to stay. In fact he couldn't wait to pull out just like Obama. The difference was in the time-line for the pullout. The difference was like 4 years or something like that. He had a clear plan for relocation of funds that were being utilized to fund the war.
The greatest commandment, by the way, has nothing to do with war. And quite frankly, our soldiers are not over there dying so that they can worship allah, they were sent there to find nukes and to reinstate political democracy. The greatest commandment, which is Love, has more to do with abortion than war. Now you tell me, after committing yourself to a little time for research, how do the numbers compare in terms of murdered babies and victims of the war in Iraq? Whom has exprienced less love? Iraqis or our innocent children put to death by those that are funded DIRECTLY by the allocation of taxes as directed by our esteemed president?
The greatest commandment, by the way, has nothing to do with war. And quite frankly, our soldiers are not over there dying so that they can worship allah, they were sent there to find nukes and to reinstate political democracy. The greatest commandment, which is Love, has more to do with abortion than war. Now you tell me, after committing yourself to a little time for research, how do the numbers compare in terms of murdered babies and victims of the war in Iraq? Whom has exprienced less love? Iraqis or our innocent children put to death by those that are funded DIRECTLY by the allocation of taxes as directed by our esteemed president?
1
It was called Operation Iraqi freedom!! "Freedom" to worship as they wish which includes for most of them the freedom to worship Allah! Our Christian soldiers are dying for that. Bush even used the argument of 'freedom' as justification for the war after he admitted no WMD's were found!
Mccain was for the war. He voted for it.
I don't know if it really matters after 80,000 plus deaths in Iraq or millions after abortion who's record has killed more. The thing that matters is that both records have killed many.
Hitlers holocaust killed millions of Jews and the war in the balkins in the 90's killed thousands of croats and serbs because of their nationality. Neither figure is insignificant. It's the same with abortion deaths vs war deaths. Death is death despite the number. We should seek leaders who strive to avoid unneeded deaths totally.
I think one of the best examples is Ronald Reagan. He NEVER went to war and brought down an entire Communist empire, all the while remaining strictly pro life.
Be nice to have more leaders like that who are consistent on all fronts.
But I get where you're coming from, so I'll stop goin back and forth and back and forth. Thanks for the discussion.
Mccain was for the war. He voted for it.
I don't know if it really matters after 80,000 plus deaths in Iraq or millions after abortion who's record has killed more. The thing that matters is that both records have killed many.
Hitlers holocaust killed millions of Jews and the war in the balkins in the 90's killed thousands of croats and serbs because of their nationality. Neither figure is insignificant. It's the same with abortion deaths vs war deaths. Death is death despite the number. We should seek leaders who strive to avoid unneeded deaths totally.
I think one of the best examples is Ronald Reagan. He NEVER went to war and brought down an entire Communist empire, all the while remaining strictly pro life.
Be nice to have more leaders like that who are consistent on all fronts.
But I get where you're coming from, so I'll stop goin back and forth and back and forth. Thanks for the discussion.