Christians are Israel

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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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If Christians are Israel wouldn't Jesus Be incestuous with his Fathers wife??? The Nation Israel is portrayed as the WIFE of God the Father. God repeatedly states the Marriage is an EVERLASTING covenant. Christ Is the SON born of this MARRIAGE... be is betrothed to his BRIDE... which is the CHURCH. THIS is the NEW COVENENT. God is not a man that he should Lie... there are two covenants... Two Marriages... two distinct subjects... Christians and Israel???
Two Gods?
seriously?

Romans 7
Released from the Law

1Or do you not know, brothersa—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? 2For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage.b 3Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.

4Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

Two Covenants?

Galatians 4
Sons and Heirs

1I mean that the heir, as long as he is a child, is no different from a slave,a though he is the owner of everything, 2but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by his father. 3In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principlesb of the world. 4But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. 6And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.

Example of Hagar and Sarah
21Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,

“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”

28Now you,f brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.
 
B

BarlyGurl

Guest
Two Gods?
seriously?

Zone-
I have NO IDEA how it is you concluded I was alluding, implying or SAID anything about 2 GODS. I believe in TRIUNE nature of GOD... don't YOU???? God the FATHER and GOD the SON are two persons of the Trinity.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,621
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well actually yeah it is. It is talking to Christians. And to jews who are trying to add the law to salvation.
I can't see that verse talking to "jews who are trying to add the law to salvation", the Israel of God there means the church. On another note Paul also calls the church "the circumcision" and the fleshly unregenerate israelites he calls "dogs".
Phil.3

[2] Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
[3] For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Thats not the context at all. The context is God chose the seed through jacob and Not through esau. (the firstborn, who should have had the inheritance) He did it his way, not our way..
Which has everything to do with what we're discussing here. Surely all believers in Christ are Jacob, the children of promise counted as seed, having received the adoption as Sons, being translated into the kingdom of His dear Son. To think that this does not apply to the church is nigh to sacrilege if not only blunt ignorance.
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
No. Pentecost is when he gave all mankind the power to be children of God and recieve the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:5
Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.

Acts 4
1And as they were speaking to the people, the priests and the captain of the temple and the Sadducees came upon them, 2greatly annoyed because they were teaching the people and proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection from the dead. 3And they arrested them and put them in custody until the next day, for it was already evening. 4But many of those who had heard the word believed, and the number of the men came to about five thousand.

5On the next day their rulers and elders and scribes gathered together in Jerusalem, 6with Annas the high priest and Caiaphas and John and Alexander, and all who were of the high-priestly family. 7And when they had set them in the midst, they inquired, “By what power or by what name did you do this?” 8Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders, 9if we are being examined today concerning a good deed done to a crippled man, by what means this man has been healed, 10let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by him this man is standing before you well. 11This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone.b 12And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

It was never prophesied that salvation had anything to do with the restoration of the children of Isreal. so why do you keep making it one?
Zechariah 9:9
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your king is coming to you; righteous and having salvation is he, humble and mounted on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

Matthew 21:5
"Say to the Daughter of Zion, 'See, your king comes to you, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.'"

John 12:15
"Do not be afraid, O Daughter of Zion; see, your king is coming, seated on a donkey's colt."

Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

Acts 10:43
All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

Acts 13:26
"Brothers, children of Abraham, and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.

Daniel 9
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Hebrews 2:17
For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Acts 11:26
So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.

??

what were they before they were called Christians?
jews or gentiles?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I can't see that verse talking to "jews who are trying to add the law to salvation", the Israel of God there means the church. On another note Paul also calls the church "the circumcision" and the fleshly unregenerate israelites he calls "dogs".
Did you know Esau and Ishmael were circumcised also? Circumcision had nothing to do with being Israel. It had to do with being given part or all the promises given to Abraham. Only one part of the promise had to do with Isreal. and it was not salvic in nature. so why does everyone to to make it a salvic issue?

Which has everything to do with what we're discussing here. Surely all believers in Christ are Jacob, the children of promise counted as seed, having being adopted into the family of God, translated into the kingdom of His dear Son. To think that this does not apply to the church is nigh to sacrilege if not only blunt ignorance.
No, it has nothing to do with what we are talking about here. The promise of eternal life was given through Abraham (in you shall ALL the nations of the world be blessed) And Christ who fulfills this promise. Rom 9 is written to stop two false beliefs, 1 is that God made a mistake chosing an ungrateful nation. and 2 that being a fleshly seed of jacob gets you an automatic in. And Paul takes us through the steps to show it was not the flesh which had anything to do with Christ coming, it was all about him and how he did things..
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Acts 2:5
Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.

Acts 4
1And as they were speaking to the people, the priests and the captain of the temple and the Sadducees came upon them, 2greatly annoyed because they were teaching the people and proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection from the dead. 3And they arrested them and put them in custody until the next day, for it was already evening. 4But many of those who had heard the word believed, and the number of the men came to about five thousand.

5On the next day their rulers and elders and scribes gathered together in Jerusalem, 6with Annas the high priest and Caiaphas and John and Alexander, and all who were of the high-priestly family. 7And when they had set them in the midst, they inquired, “By what power or by what name did you do this?” 8Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders, 9if we are being examined today concerning a good deed done to a crippled man, by what means this man has been healed, 10let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by him this man is standing before you well. 11This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone.b 12And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”



Zechariah 9:9
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your king is coming to you; righteous and having salvation is he, humble and mounted on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

Matthew 21:5
"Say to the Daughter of Zion, 'See, your king comes to you, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.'"

John 12:15
"Do not be afraid, O Daughter of Zion; see, your king is coming, seated on a donkey's colt."

Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

Acts 10:43
All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

Acts 13:26
"Brothers, children of Abraham, and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.

Daniel 9
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Hebrews 2:17
For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Acts 11:26
So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.

??

what were they before they were called Christians?
jews or gentiles?
with the exception of daniel 9, which has nothing to do with this subject. Everything you posted deals with salvation. Why are you stuck on this? the physical covenant given to abraham and Israel NEVER HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH WHO IS SAVED. HOW THEY ARE SAVED, WHY THEY ARE SAVED, or ANYTHING ELSE HAVING TO DO WITH SALVATION..

We are not going here, it has nothing to do with salvation.

What was davids grandmother? she was saved.. what would you call her? A jew? Certainly not. for she was a gentile when she got saved..

yet again. THIS IS NOT A SALVATION ISSUE.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,621
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Did you know Esau and Ishmael were circumcised also?
Of course. But even in OT times what counted before God was circumcision of heart.

Circumcision had nothing to do with being Israel. It had to do with being given part or all the promises given to Abraham. Only one part of the promise had to do with Isreal. and it was not salvic in nature. so why does everyone to to make it a salvic issue?
Don't know why you cannot see those prophecies as already fulfilled and if these prophecies are not salvific in nature, as you say, then I don't know why you hold this your belief so dear.

...that being a fleshly seed of jacob gets you an automatic in. And Paul takes us through the steps to show it was not the flesh which had anything to do with Christ coming, it was all about him and how he did things..
Which has absolutely everything to do with whom the "Israel of God" is and who is a "true israelite".
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Did you know Esau and Ishmael were circumcised also? Circumcision had nothing to do with being Israel. It had to do with being given part or all the promises given to Abraham. Only one part of the promise had to do with Isreal. and it was not salvic in nature. so why does everyone to to make it a salvic issue?



No, it has nothing to do with what we are talking about here. The promise of eternal life was given through Abraham (in you shall ALL the nations of the world be blessed) And Christ who fulfills this promise. Rom 9 is written to stop two false beliefs, 1 is that God made a mistake chosing an ungrateful nation. and 2 that being a fleshly seed of jacob gets you an automatic in. And Paul takes us through the steps to show it was not the flesh which had anything to do with Christ coming, it was all about him and how he did things..
to add to this. what was the pharisee argument to reject christ?

1. they were from abraham, he was a half breed
2. They had an inheritance. he could not even prove he was from the flesh of abraham
3. Their fathers were given the inheritance because they were righteous.. And since they were so righteous, god blessed them. the same would go for us, we are righteous as our fathers are. so who is Christ to say we are not good enough?

Romans 9 was written to destroy this argument.

Jacob (the nation of Isreal) was chosen, not because he was good (in reality, he was prety sinful) but because God chose him before he was even born. to bore a nation in his name.
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
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Does this mean I can get an Israeli passport and live there?

Replacement theology is a wicked and evil lie.
This isn't replacement theology. It's a continuation of true Israel.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Of course. But even in OT times what counted before God was circumcision of heart.


as it says in scripture. abraham was saved before he was circumcized, Again circumcision never had a thing to do with being saved, so why are we discussing this as a salvation issue?


Don't know why you cannot see those prophecies as already fulfilled and if these prophecies are not salvific in nature, as you say, then I don't know why you hold this your belief so dear.
2 reasons.

1. God said it will happen. if it does not. god is a liar.

2. God said he gave the land of canaan as an inheritance to abraham and his seed through isaac and jacob) not to be saved, not to assure salvation. and not to do anything with salvation, but as a GIFT FROM HIM. and he said this would last in every generation forever, and the covenant would last forever 9as long as the land exists) if God does not keep his promise to them, when it never had a thing to do with salvation, or whether they earned it or not. What would make me think he would keep his promise of eternal life to me, as an eternal gift not based on anything I did to earn it?

the belief God will not keep his promise, or has changed his mind concerning this NON SALVIC promise should be of great concern to us all. for if God will not keep one eternal promise, Nothing guarantees he will keep any eternal promise. and we better fear and be like the ones who are trying to earn their gift of eternal life. so we make sure God does not change his mind.



Which has absolutely everything to do with whom the "Israel of God" is and who is a "true israelite".

Nope. the promise God gave to the children of Isreal has NOTHING to do with who is saved, who might be saved, and who has the right to become children of God. Never has, never will.
 
Jul 12, 2012
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If Christians are Israel wouldn't Jesus Be incestuous with his Fathers wife??? The Nation Israel is portrayed as the WIFE of God the Father. God repeatedly states the Marriage is an EVERLASTING covenant. Christ Is the SON born of this MARRIAGE... be is betrothed to his BRIDE... which is the CHURCH. THIS is the NEW COVENENT. God is not a man that he should Lie... there are two covenants... Two Marriages... two distinct subjects... Christians and Israel???
Well, here's the best way I can look at it personally...
Christians aren't "Israel", so much as "sons of Israel", along with many unknowing people and non-christians.

Take with a grain of salt, I am still working through these daily...
Maybe someone else sees or knows similar details about the prophecy contained in the Joseph story or individual sons that I don't.

Jacob: Anyone who is struggling primarily materially, against others or for self during their seeking of God. "One uppers", supplanters, people conquerors, Nicolaitines.

becomes

Israel: Anyone who is earnestly seeking God, therefore, chosen by Him. (This does not exclude people of any religion or race, granted, they may not be seeking Him properly. Still, they seek Him and this search is the struggle. Israel = Struggles with El.

Note that after Jacob is renamed Israel, he is alternately later referred to by each name, depending on his current motives or the motive of the "son of ..." in context. There are actually two occasions where his renaming is declared, as if to insinuate either a backsliding, or maybe a reiteration of the process of change.

Gentile: People who are not earnestly seeking God. They may believe in Him, go to church, be a good person, etc., but don't really give God or even the concept very much thought except when reminded by external means. Many christians fall into this description, and is why I say I "follow Jesus" rather than "am a christian." It is a more powerful statement, and it does not immediately taint me with the media's "God hates fags" mentality when I speak to someone in a bar or guitar shop. I feel like it relieves them of the fear that I judge them simply by my introduction. And while I visit various local churches, I refrain from becoming a "member" of a brick building or a "pastorship."

To these old hebrews, a son is a result that is kept near. What something "becomes." Twins represent multiple sides of the one result. The reasons the "boring" lineages are preserved is so we can learn what the names mean and see that certain states begat certain states. The lineages usually start with something "red", wild and fleshly and in distress, and end with some kind of a victory.
They teach a process of personal growth or demise.
A daughter is a result that is given to or taken by another.

My best effort at identifying "sons of Israel"...
Reuben: People who entertain Jesus (as Joseph), but do not think He came out of the pit. Slept with Father's wife, i.e. still adhere to Torah. An example would be some of modern Islam or modern Judaism.
Simeon: People who exact judgment in the name of God. (Killing in the Dinah story. They were mutually in love, proper wording is that he "spoke to the heart" of her, rather than just "kindly")
Levi: People who exact and propagate judgment in the name of God. (Dinah...)
Judah: People who cast the stumbling block of "justification of sin" or "denial of guilt"
Dan: People who sought properly once, but have changed and are now stuck in idols etc.
Naphtali: People who seek but have no shepherd. A wild and free version of a sheep, a "deer on the loose."
Gad: People who focus on warfare in the name of God, or hyper-evangelism. An example might be some of another type of christians, muslims, "jews".
Asher: "Daughters" who bless and embrace joy. An example might be peaceful seculars who yet seek God. Maybe a hippie type or new ager. Some universalists and wise men, his bread shall be fat, and he shall yield royal dainties.
Issachar: Works based seekers. "Earners" of heaven. Donkeys and hirelings.
Zebulon: People who seek material evidence of their salvation. Prosperity gospel-ites.
Joseph: ( Jesus ) aka Ephraim via birth right. People who know the way.
Benjamin: Preservers of the message. Appointed to keep the house in order until His return. Backwards wolves.
Manasseh: Unknowing victors in Christ. Didn't need his own birthright because he was good to go. People like my aunt who struggles with church and scripture, but has given her life and all of her possessions and cares without thought in service to everyone she meets, in the name of Christ.

Therefore most Christians are Israel, because in one or more of those ways, they at least do earnestly seek and to some degree have a relationship with God. From a sprinkling with the blood, to being slathered in oil.
I believe a person spiritually can belong to and dwell among multiple "tribes"
And as prophesied, Gentiles, who don't really have a relationship, are the ones running the religious shows right now. Treading the sacrifice and the washing, the courtyard, under foot, ruining the concepts, yet ironically being more productive in their endeavors than Israel has been.

For further contemplation, the aforementioned attributes fit the camping order of the tribes.
Judah, Issachar, Zebulon, Levi - all spend time focused on "revelation" and praise, rising of the sun.
Reuben, Simeon, Gad, all spend time focused on "service", facing the throne.
Benjamin, Ephraim, Mannesah (Joseph/Jesus), all spend time focused on "the right hand", end of the day.
Asher, Dan, Naphtali - all spend time focused on "being heavenly", behind the throne.
Process is east, south, west, and when applicable, north in the Most Holy Place.

Whether the focus is in error or in accuracy.

Note that though I refer to islam, new age, etc., just because they don't yet understand that they are "sons of Israel", nor have any good direction, doesn't mean they aren't trying to find "the one and only true creator of the universe", therefore qualifying spiritually as Israel, chosen people. They will receive evidence and a chance for proper direction before He returns I believe. "Come out of Babylon My people."

And since discussion of the tribes usually brings to mind Revelation, I will say for reasons that are too lengthy to get into, that I believe the "144,000" are probably physically descended via DNA no matter what nationality they are. (Humanity was extremely mixed before we found America.) And that they are also spiritually descended, in that they have struggled with stages in life that have placed them in the roles of the sons, or at least to have been tempted extensively by those ways.

Now as to the question at hand, "marriages", the best I can do is say there's no "sleeping with the father's wife" involved as I see it, based on the divinity of Jesus, His manifestation of God's male role.
Or possibly, God "marries" all of mankind, with the "virgin bride" part of it being said to be married differently, via victory in Jesus.
"YHWH of hosts" and "dwell among them" i.e. God living inside each and every man, "becoming one flesh" almost to the same degree as "Father, Son, Holy Spirit" in Jesus.

Ancient Hebrew family structure accounting for the concept of "polygyny"
God/Jesus (polygynist, desires and receives multiple humans)
Man (polygynist, desires and receives multiple wives)
Woman (desires and receives multiple children) [woman saved by child bearing=ladies, here is your strongest conduit for understanding how God loves you, the way you love your children! A peaceful respite from the "husband is your head" concept. You are their "head" and their moon, tugging on the seas of their heart.]
And the loop begins again with children who are their own man or woman.

The final "man/wife" union is a tough one for me, because as everyone knows, I vehemently adhere to the reconciliation of all mankind, though salvation from the punishment is only for followers of Yeshua. And I believe the most significant point of the punishment is centered around that very belief, His name's (Salvation's) sake.

Peace.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
This isn't replacement theology. It's a continuation of true Israel.
then why does the church not posses the land of canaan. Why does she not posses the city of God. Why is she not in her land. enjoying the peace God promised the nation of isreal.

It has everything to do with replacement theology. The church did not replace isreal. for being a child of Isreal NEVER had a thing to do with being a part of the church. Noah was not Isreal. but he is part of the church, so was Adam, and many other great men of God.. (waiting for extreme and fanatical dispies to condemn me now)

It is not an Israel thing, never has been.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Both covenants are still binding
EG this is just awful, bud.
if both Covenants are binding, you're UNDER THE LAW!

which Covenant was Paul the Hebrew of Hebrews under?

Romans 4
The Promise Realized Through Faith

13For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

16That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. 18In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” 19He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. 20No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, 21fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. 22That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” 23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.


Dual Covenant Theology is a distaster, and is putting New Wine into Old Skins!
 

Cobb

Banned
Dec 27, 2012
37
1
0
It's not that the church replaced Israel, for Israel always was the church; they are one and the same. At the first coming, Israel was purged by fire and any carnal Israelite who did not/does not receive the testimony of the King Messiah has been cut off/broken off of the tree of Israel. This tree now only bears the branches which have believed into Christ. Thus, though one may say that "Israel is 100% Christian" that is true, however, the tree was not replaced, but the branches were. Israel is still a nation, and many of the Christians are in fact carnal Israelites, though many are also Gentile converts.

So, yes, in the end, Israel are all Christians, and all Christians are branches of the tree of Israel- Israel has been transfigured from a carnal people to a spiritual people, all who can trace their spiritual lineage back to the seed (word) of Jesus Christ- the TRUE ISRAEL- are the sons of Israel. This is why Jesus "begat" 12 apostles (sons) through the incorruptible seed- the Word of God: because the patriarch Jacob is but a picture of the TRUE Jacob- Jesus Christ.

But for those of you who are awake, the most important thing to understand is this:

The carnal Israel of the old covenant is but a picture of the spiritual Israel of the new covenant; look at the beginning of carnal Israel brought to the old covenant and you are seeing the beginning of the spiritual Israel in picture-form, as it were. In other words, as Moses brought the called out of carnal bondage through a carnal deliverence to lead them into a carnal promised land, so then did the spiritual Moses, Jesus, bring the called out of spiritual bondage through a spiritual deliverence to lead them into a spiritual promised land. Both deliverences beginning on the 14th day of the 1st month.

Now if you want to see the ENDING events concerning the new covenant and spiritual Israel, simply look at the ending events of the old covenant and carnal Israel. This can be found in the prophets. What do you see? A terrible king is coming- a destroyer: to enact the judgment of God upon the Israelites. Israel is to be judged by the sword of the King of Confusion (Babylon/Babel)- and all of them are going to be carried away, save a small remnant. Look at the end of carnal Israel under the old covenant- you are being shown the future regarding the end of spiritual Israel under the new covenant. A conquerer overcoming the saints, and carrying them away captive into Great Babel. Beginning on the 10th day of the 10th month when he comes with all his host.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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EG this is just awful, bud.
if both Covenants are binding, you're UNDER THE LAW!

which Covenant was Paul the Hebrew of Hebrews under?

Romans 4
The Promise Realized Through Faith

13For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

16That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. 18In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” 19He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. 20No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, 21fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. 22That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” 23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.


Dual Covenant Theology is a distaster, and is putting New Wine into Old Skins!
Ty for bringing this up, zone! Apart from being a great post it also explains why EG thinks as he does about this one.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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Zone-
I have NO IDEA how it is you concluded I was alluding, implying or SAID anything about 2 GODS. I believe in TRIUNE nature of GOD... don't YOU???? God the FATHER and GOD the SON are two persons of the Trinity.
i dunno Barly.
you've got two marriages, two covenants, two peoples and a God who can not commit adultery.
God the Father has a wife, and God the Son has a bride.
you tell me...or, actually, not.

If Christians are Israel wouldn't Jesus Be incestuous with his Fathers wife??? The Nation Israel is portrayed as the WIFE of God the Father. God repeatedly states the Marriage is an EVERLASTING covenant. Christ Is the SON born of this MARRIAGE... be is betrothed to his BRIDE... which is the CHURCH. THIS is the NEW COVENENT. God is not a man that he should Lie... there are two covenants... Two Marriages... two distinct subjects... Christians and Israel???
this is the inevitable illogical [and blasphemous] conclusion we must arrive at when we insist on legitimizing the Orwellian Newspeak device known as "Relacement Theology is evil".

two of everything.
 
B

BarlyGurl

Guest
by Zone- this is the inevitable illogical [and blasphemous] conclusion we must arrive at when we insist on legitimizing the Orwellian Newspeak device known as "Relacement Theology is evil".

two of everything.


I have NO idea what you are saying in this post either...
Accept you appear to be making a LEAPING conclusion about me saying 2 Gods which I didn't and Alluding I mean 2 of everything which I didn't. By your strong accusations of evil and blasphemy I charge you to the correction of my Father and my Bridegroom who vindicate me. YET...Wondering if you couldl recognize the conviction of the HOLY SPIRIT???
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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I have NO idea what you are saying in this post either...
Accept you appear to be making a LEAPING conclusion about me saying 2 Gods which I didn't and Alluding I mean 2 of everything which I didn't. By your strong accusations of evil and blasphemy I charge you to the correction of my Father and my Bridegroom who vindicate me. YET...Wondering if you couldl recognize the conviction of the HOLY SPIRIT???
does the Holy Spirit get His own wife also?
whatever Barly.
re-read what you wrote.
 
Jul 12, 2012
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To add, I have said a few times before in threads that I believe particular persons should not dismiss the idea that they are spiritually "Israel".
This was not stated based solely on the fact that they proclaim to be Christian, but mostly on the fact that they are obviously serious about seeking God by being on this forum and participating with hours of their time and effort. If you choose to learn from your earthly father and emulate him, if he were righteous, would he not also choose or have already chosen to call you his son? Chosen people.
I don't believe one should allow their self to be locked into the role of "gentile" by modern church doctrine, just because they are an American Christian.

Per Paul, no jew or gentile if you follow Jesus. (though, while a gentile just doesn't take it as seriously, he is still grafted in through the Name of Jesus.)
Imagine the guy who doesn't really think about God that much, but when you witness to him, and tell him "Jesus is the way" in whatever fashion you represent or misrepresent Jesus, end result is that if that person takes you for your word and that's the best he's got, you have from his perspective, convinced him that he is now saved by Jesus. If he earnestly believes this and stands before God and that's fairly all he had to go on, his innocence in the matter will go all the way. Most likely as a saved "gentile."