Catholic's Arent Real Christians

[kenisyes]

1. Many people believe they have infallibility when they pray and read the bible and that only them know the truth. If this is true then why every 'christian" who claims infallibility believes different?

2. aren't we supposed to be one church? All catholics pray to God that he may guide the Pope when a decision concerning the truths we are to know are correct, do you not believe God can grant this?

3. Everything catholics believe has biblical proof, but people claim infallibility and say we are twisting the word of God.

4. But she did become the Mother of God. To deny this is to deny Jesus is God.

you've done a very good job of clarifying. May I add to these 4 observations?

1. Those people do not direct other people and insist they follow. In some cases, people who have tried have been denounced as cult leaders and placed on trial.

2. We are indeed. Why then, does the RC Church insist that they are the only true church? That implies there are at least two, them and everyone else.

3. I do not know Biblical proof for any of the following three. Can you provide it?
A. The assumption of Mary into heaven.
B. That Peter, in appointing Linus as bishop of Rome, made him head of the entire Christian church, including that of Jerusalem, which was still part of the church at that time. On this one historical appointment hangs the entire history of apostolic succession.
C. In what sense does Scripture call Barnabas an apostle (Acts 14:14)? He was not one of the 12, or Paul, and these 13 are said by the RC to include all the apostles? This is critically important for the definition of the "deposit of faith".

4. There is a separate thread on this. A lot of the objection comes from trying to decide if "Jesus Christ is God" refers to Him being God (which He is) or if He is God the Father (which He is not). The trinity is a difficult subject.

 

[jimmydiggs]

1 Timothy 3 KJV
15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Is not the bride the church?

 

[GRA]

But she did become the Mother of God.

"No, she absolutely did not!"

To say "the mother of God" is to say:

~ "the mother of God the Father"
~ "the mother of God the Holy Spirit"
~ "the mother of all things that are God"

Understand?

And that is absolutely incorrect!

'God' is an all-inclusive 'name' / 'term' / 'identification' / 'designation' / etc.

'God' is a lot more than [just] Jesus - even though Jesus is "God in the flesh"...

She was the earthly human mother of Jesus. That is all! There IS a difference!

To lift her up any higher than that is blasphemy against Almighty God Jehovah!

To deny this is to deny Jesus is God.

Not true. See above.

.

 

[rauleetoe]

Hello everyone!

I'm struggling with this "Catholic's Aren't Christians" topic with a friend and I want to get your opinion on it!

First of all, I'm not Catholic and neither is my friend. We're just Christian (some may say Evangelical or something). Anyways, we were discussing Catholisism one day and she made the comment that Catholic's aren't real Christians because they believe that works will get you into heaven, are only saved if you are baptized, exalt priests, the pope and Mary and that you must confess your sins to a priest and not to Jesus because you are not worthy to do so and many other things that don't line up with Biblical teaching.

Now, I agree that there are a lot of things that Catholics do that don't seem to line up with the Bible (a lot of Christians do things that don't line up with the Bible) and the whole Hail Mary's, rosaries and other things seem very cumbersome but I wouldn't go as far to say that they aren't real Christians because they do things a different way. They believe in Jesus and honor him above all else, am I right? I'm not sure how to talk to my friend about this matter because she seems pretty set in her belief that Catholics aren't Christians and I don't agree with her.

If there are any Catholics here I'd like to hear your opinion on this so I can share your thoughts with my friend.

Thanks!

While i am not a catholic i have to say the vitriol against catholics here is anything but christian and makes me sick to my stomach..then again, i being of a holiness church get accused of being non christian too. At the end of the day, it does not matter what denominational t shirt you are rocking, if you are living for God, and have fruit of the spirit and show you are a christian..then you are..sadly many who are protestants do not get this. They hold onto their 'good theology' but live like the devil monday through saturday..yet judge catholics for doing the same..double standard? yes..

so..yes..a catholic can be saved..a baptist can be..the only ones i would say may not be for sure are the obvious..buddist..muslims..etc..and mormons and jw/watchtower..because they preach a different Jesus from a different bible.

thats my 2 cents on the matter..

 

[rauleetoe]

The demons are more pious than you. They believe, and they tremble.

And Jimmydiggs does it again.
Wow..another jab by a high calvinist..
seriously..what gives you the right to think you even know what this man believes? Do you know if he truly trusts in God..or do you simply take jabs at him for being a catholic..
take that back, you should be ashamed of yourself..
moreover..without catholicism you wouldnt have Calvinism..remember Augustine, the most famous catholic of them all. You should be thankfull to catholicism for giving you baby baptism and single predestination..of which your hero John Calvin built upon, this wretched lie..the horrible decree, double predestination..a simple twisting of romans 9 in certain parts to justify this filth you claim is the gospel.

 

[rauleetoe]

Seriously Jimmydiggs..be appreciative to Catholicism for without it..your reform theology, which should be called revision theology, for its merely revised catholicism, taken apart peacemeal and called something new would never exist...many catholics..like,Erasmus..Augustine..others who gave way for you to have your theology and even be privelegedge to have the opportunity to be reading a bible..don't be so flippantly arrogant..

 

[agirlandherguitar]

Hmm! There are a lot of very interesting posts. So far there seems to be a very clear divide between Catholics and non Catholics... and that makes me very sad

I'm not going to lie, but I'm very shocked at some of the beliefs a few of you have pointed out. There seems to be a lot of contradictions and there is one thing that we all know is that God does NOT contradict himself (another reason why the Universalists are incorrect because they believe all roads lead to God. If that were true then why do all religions oppose one another? Different topic, just musing!)

A question came to my mind. The Catholics honor Mary because she gave birth to Jesus... but the Bible states that Jesus comes from the line of JOSEPH, not Mary. Why is Joseph not honored like Mary? Would some say that he does not count since he didn't actually help to conceive Jesus in the earthly way? It seems that, although Jesus was conceived (by God) in Mary's womb and she gave birth to him neither Mary Nor Joseph would be considered Jesus' biological parents. They were more so "hosts" to help bring Jesus into the world.

 

[Jenjoy]

I was baptized Catholic, but I've been a Presbyterian for years. I have friends and family that are Catholic. In my mind there is no doubt they are Christian. My step father is Catholic and sometimes I go to mass with him. I don't know all the Catholic doctrine but to me other than a few things and the stand up sit down, kneel I don't feel it's that much different then my church service. I know they have their own bible, but I've never read it. We all have our own relationships with GOD, so I'll let him be the judge.

 

[kenisyes]

Hmm! There are a lot of very interesting posts. So far there seems to be a very clear divide between Catholics and non Catholics... and that makes me very sad

I'm not going to lie, but I'm very shocked at some of the beliefs a few of you have pointed out. There seems to be a lot of contradictions and there is one thing that we all know is that God does NOT contradict himself (another reason why the Universalists are incorrect because they believe all roads lead to God. If that were true then why do all religions oppose one another? Different topic, just musing!)

A question came to my mind. The Catholics honor Mary because she gave birth to Jesus... but the Bible states that Jesus comes from the line of JOSEPH, not Mary. Why is Joseph not honored like Mary? Would some say that he does not count since he didn't actually help to conceive Jesus in the earthly way? It seems that, although Jesus was conceived (by God) in Mary's womb and she gave birth to him neither Mary Nor Joseph would be considered Jesus' biological parents. They were more so "hosts" to help bring Jesus into the world.

When I was a child in Catholic school, we were taught to honor the "Holy Family" - Jesus, Mary, Joseph. I remember being taught to write "JMJ" in the corner of my schoolwork papers as a dedication. Of course, I went to "St. Joseph's School".

There was a study a few years back that the more Mary is honored in a country, the more accepted is adultery in that country. The study suggested that it is misplaced sexual energy somehow, that causes people to want to worship Mary (ever virgin).

Again, the terrific divide between the two camps. I am no longer shocked by the state of affairs, but I am quick to point it out, as I feel it is not of God. We all say we want to submit to Jesus, but refuse to believe that His life in each other of all of us, can be strong enough to help us get over our warring natures, and our desire to be right.

 

[Kefa52]

Doctrine is nothing more than a bunch of man made rules to try to work our way into Salvation. We pick and chose scripture to work on. and think we are more righteous doing it.

I have only one question here. At what point in the maze of Catholic beliefs do you accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior. At what point do you decide to have a personal relationship with Jesus. No priest no nuns just you and Jesus.

 

[rauleetoe]

Doctrine is nothing more than a bunch of man made rules to try to work our way into Salvation. We pick and chose scripture to work on. and think we are more righteous doing it.

I have only one question here. At what point in the maze of Catholic beliefs do you accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior. At what point do you decide to have a personal relationship with Jesus. No priest no nuns just you and Jesus.

No..you are wrong Kefa. If you do not have a theology..a doctrine, a belief system that is sytematic and grounded..then what is your belief based on? Even faith is grounded in teaching. That said, there seems to be a huge trend against having any creed, any theological position, any grounded statement of faith that would possibly 'separate' from other christians. While i disagree that it will necessarily separate at all times..But the fact is, you either have a reason to say to others what you believe, and have a basis for it. Or you have a shallow ungrounded faith that is built upon the sandy beach and will come crashing the first moment of adversity. I would highly recommend you look into the importance of Doctrine..it matters.

As far as catholics..What makes you think that all catholics run to the priest? To the nuns(do you even know about catholicism?) Yes some if not many esteem Mary quite a bit, i do not have an issue with that, and even the issues that i do have, like some of their traditions, I will not go so far as to say a catholic cannot have fruit of the spirit and not be saved.
Are all protestants saved? No!! it is obvious..look how they behave the rest of the week outside of sunday..many christians..especially in America are 'Paulinian' Sunday grace card throwing christians..no fruit of the spirit..a front on sunday and that is all you will see in their lives.

I say this from being raised a catholic, I am not a catholic anymore..but i do believe there are some catholics who have a relationship with Christ, why they stay in the Catholic church? I do not know, why not go ask them? For me, its a non salvic/salvation as to what denominational sticker you slap onto your forehead..You either walk with God or not. I saw a guy at my work prostelytizing in the parking lot with a John 3:16 trucker hat and passing out small cards with the sinner's prayer but then he was blankety blanking, cursing at every other word..Does this speak of a man who's life is Holy and has been made right with God? I say this not saying to be a better person..but should we not all seek to become like that 'better person' Christ? If you are truly saved, you will do this, and not be so caught up in your 'heritage' and identity as a protestant..as a catholic..or whatever label you choose.

 

[rauleetoe]

I was baptized Catholic, but I've been a Presbyterian for years. I have friends and family that are Catholic. In my mind there is no doubt they are Christian. My step father is Catholic and sometimes I go to mass with him. I don't know all the Catholic doctrine but to me other than a few things and the stand up sit down, kneel I don't feel it's that much different then my church service. I know they have their own bible, but I've never read it. We all have our own relationships with GOD, so I'll let him be the judge.

The only difference with the Catholic Bible and 'ours' is the Protestant Bible has chosen to omit the deuteronocanicals/the apocrypha from it. Other than that, its basically the same Bible..oh btw, Erasmus, a catholic..helped translate the Bible. And Gerome, another catholic, who's Latin Vulgate lasted as 1000 + years had the longest lasting 'translation' even superceding the beloved KJV that many who like here, but unfortunately only lasted in popularity for about 350ish or 400 years.
I doubt any translation would have kept a popularity as long as Gerome's has.

Btw, you will find many similarities in Presbyterianism to Catholicism because John Calvin, who's doctrine of 5 point calvinism all Presbyterians hold to was raised a catholic, and while many point to him as to being a 'reformer' I do see and it is documented he held onto much of his catholic tradition, like baby baptism..and quoted Augustine like every other sentence when he spoke.

 

[Jenjoy]

The only difference with the Catholic Bible and 'ours' is the Protestant Bible has chosen to omit the deuteronocanicals/the apocrypha from it. Other than that, its basically the same Bible..oh btw, Erasmus, a catholic..helped translate the Bible. And Gerome, another catholic, who's Latin Vulgate lasted as 1000 + years had the longest lasting 'translation' even superceding the beloved KJV that many who like here, but unfortunately only lasted in popularity for about 350ish or 400 years.
I doubt any translation would have kept a popularity as long as Gerome's has.

Btw, you will find many similarities in Presbyterianism to Catholicism because John Calvin, who's doctrine of 5 point calvinism all Presbyterians hold to was raised a catholic, and while many point to him as to being a 'reformer' I do see and it is documented he held onto much of his catholic tradition, like baby baptism..and quoted Augustine like every other sentence when he spoke.

Thanks for the info on the Bible. I knew about John Calvin being raised Catholic. When we say the apostles creed it says we believe in the Holy Catholic church.

 

[Jenjoy]

The only difference with the Catholic Bible and 'ours' is the Protestant Bible has chosen to omit the deuteronocanicals/the apocrypha from it. Other than that, its basically the same Bible..oh btw, Erasmus, a catholic..helped translate the Bible. And Gerome, another catholic, who's Latin Vulgate lasted as 1000 + years had the longest lasting 'translation' even superceding the beloved KJV that many who like here, but unfortunately only lasted in popularity for about 350ish or 400 years.
I doubt any translation would have kept a popularity as long as Gerome's has.

Btw, you will find many similarities in Presbyterianism to Catholicism because John Calvin, who's doctrine of 5 point calvinism all Presbyterians hold to was raised a catholic, and while many point to him as to being a 'reformer' I do see and it is documented he held onto much of his catholic tradition, like baby baptism..and quoted Augustine like every other sentence when he spoke.

Also Presbyterians have confirmation. I call my church Catholic light. lol

 

[kenisyes]

Doctrine is nothing more than a bunch of man made rules to try to work our way into Salvation. We pick and chose scripture to work on. and think we are more righteous doing it.

I have only one question here. At what point in the maze of Catholic beliefs do you accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior. At what point do you decide to have a personal relationship with Jesus. No priest no nuns just you and Jesus.

There is no external pressure to do this, but any Catholic is free to do so at any time. The official teaching is that baptism (even as an infant) is as good as doing this, so long as you make a lifetime of trying to avoid sin, and worshiping God in public at the mass, and follow the various other rules. The public worship includes many times "through our Lord Jesus Christ", and there is a highly developed theology of sin that, if followed, makes you act like you have repented.

i am about to write another post, and I hope it will explain why this is so.

 

[kenisyes]

Raulteetoe and Jenjoy, you have hit on a lot of similarities. Historically, there was the early church, with a uniques expression in each city. Then, the church of Rome, because of their position near the government, started to gain prominence among many churches. They became the Roman Catholic Church, and ruled most of the western world for 1000 years plus. When Luther started the Reformation, he changed only the parts he recognized needed changing. Everyone else was then set free to change whatever they thought God wanted changed. They all heard something a little different from God, and that's what they changed. That's why there are so many traditional protestant denominations. But many things were never questioned until later. For example, only the Quakers questioned the very idea of church services as a "staged event". No one questioned the absence of prophecy and tongues until nearly 1900AD. We are still in the process of questioning many things, like Sunday church, pastors running things, are there new apostles, etc. People are people wherever you find them. Some"run to the priest", many do not, as Raulteetoe tells us. Some speak of their reasoning about their relationship to God more than others, and that gives rise to "theology", and at the official level, "dogma".

When it comes to personal commitment as necessary for salvation, we must remember that the idea was advanced by Finney starting in 1825. The home church movement is barely 20 years old. Every church has many people brought up to expect the same thing that has always happened. In each of our lives, we question anything we think the Holy Spirit is telling us, and go back to Scripture to verify it. We also depend on our experience with God so far. Every church has different experience; it takes a long time to figure things out sometimes, as there are many people in need of consulting, and many older people who might take offence.

This is why I say that my real problem is the pride that makes us think we (or our church) are closer to God than someone else. We are all part of THE church of Jesus Christ. Anyone, Catholic, Protestant, Messianic Jewish, independent, and whatever names I haven't heard of yet, who wishes to follow Jesus, has a right to be part of the process of deciding where God wants us to go in the world in the 21st century. We all have baggage, we all have bad traditions, we all have people in our fellowship who are not serious about following Jesus and making up lies, traditions, rules, etc., and we all are right if we say this or that is not of God. But we all have the right to pray, prophesy, search the Scriptures, experiment with new works, share our wisdom and discernment, and be listened to. What I would like to see is less of that first kind of prideful "being right", and more of the kind of being loving that says "oh, your Bible translation worked for 1000 years?", "oh, you've recognized that a personal commitment to Christ is a great idea?" and adds "tell me about it". So we pick up some things we don't like, like "Mary is the mother of God" or "the Pope can't make a mistake". Eventually, what God doesn't want His church doing will stop. If you don't do what God does not tell you to do, you can have that victory now, and not have to wait.

 

[Tommy4Christ]

Most who profess Christ today and go to Church regularly are not real Christians either, before you jump on the Catholic faith, make sure your house is in order!

Its sad to see those who profess Christ, and I am to blame also, stand against all the false religions such as Catholicism, Mormonism, and many others while they sit under an even greater deception,, that mixes Truth with error. At least the blatant false religions can be easily detected, while your beloved pastor teaches, OS,(origina sin) Substitution, OSAS, many forms of Calvinism, etc.. And has thrown our real repentance and faith out the door!

So who are the real Christians? I would encourage you to check your heart first, not what you pastor or favorite ministry tels you, while you wallow in sin and disobedience, OR are sitting under the spirit of error so prevalent today!

​

Wake up!​

Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand; therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.
Many who profess Christ as their savior today, are asleep to the works of darkness, they have fallen into complacency and are oblivious to the evil that lurks all around them. Their consciences have become seared and closed to any truth that could set them free from their bondage's to the darkness and lies coming out in droves from the professing Christian world.
Casting off the works of darkness, isn't possible in their minds, because they have been taught sin is a calamity and not a crime against God, they play around with sin and temptation, fast asleep to its hardening effects on their hearts.
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Romans 1:19 because the thing which may be known of God is clearly revealed within them, for God revealed it to them.
Yes, the sad fact is that many suppress the truth in unrighteousness by teaching one can remain in their vile sins and still make it into heaven, no questions asked, the provision has been made for them, and all is well, even though the word of God wholeheartedly refutes every argument they have to defend their saved in sin gospel, or be abandoned by the system they know and love!
Putting on the armor of light,(armor of God) is only accepted as provisional today, it’s a nice suggestion, and good to do, but in reality, since they were saved IN their sins, then this would void and nullify the power of God and Christ to keep one far away from any sins that would disqualify them from the kingdom.
Instead they remain, asleep to the truth, that will set them free if they would only wake up, from their slumber, repent as the city of Nineveh did, not assuming anything from God, and hoping they will be granted mercy for their disobedience and rebellion.
The gospel according to godliness is rendered powerless and is nonsense to them, who love the lie over the truth!
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
The power of God goes out to those who believe(obey and follow Christ on the narrow road, Luke 9:23) this power is then given to those who come to the end of self as the prodigal son did in the pig pen, fall to their knees in humble repentance and faith, through godly sorrow that cleanses and purges the old defiled heart clean and pure of sin and worldliness, being crucified with Christ, Galatians 2:20, and then remaining awake and alert, working their salvation out daily with fear and trembling.
The church is asleep I am afraid, alive to sin, and dead to an obedient faith that can save their souls, because they have bought into the great lie that has and will lead many into perdition, that claims you will surely not die, but in reality you will die IF you do not WAKE UP! And come out of the system of great errors, through the clearing that will only come from real repentance and faith, proven by deeds. Acts 20; 21.
To wake up is to stop playing church, dig deep for the truth, flee from the wrath to come by coming to a saving faith of repentance, and an obedient faith proven by deeds, it’s that simple, no gimmicks, no fancy plans, and no fluff, just a simple message that has been lost in translation during the reformed era, that took the pure gospel, and added and subtracted from it to make it another gospel being taught as truth today! Seek the truth immediately, and you will be richly rewarded!
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
How many today are diligently seeking Him? How many today are willing to wake up, and compare the huge difference between what is being taught today as truth, and what the gospel according to godliness actually teaches? Not many as I am finding out. Wont you just step aside from your worldly concerns and entertainments for a bit, and seek truth at all cost, making it a high priority for you and your family’s life, remaining diligent and sober minded, and standing firmly against the onslaught of lies pouring out of the seminaries, colleges, and churches that are teaching a false gospel, keeping many in slumber, and unable to wake up!
Tommy

 

[Kefa52]

Scripture please?

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Are you saying we are saved just by baptism.

There is no external pressure to do this, but any Catholic is free to do so at any time. The official teaching is that baptism (even as an infant) is as good as doing this, so long as you make a lifetime of trying to avoid sin, and worshiping God in public at the mass, and follow the various other rules. The public worship includes many times "through our Lord Jesus Christ", and there is a highly developed theology of sin that, if followed, makes you act like you have repented.

i am about to write another post, and I hope it will explain why this is so.

 

[kenisyes]

Scripture please?

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Are you saying we are saved just by baptism.

Me? Of course not!

Catholics believe that if you are baptized, and die before you commit another sin, you go to heaven. That's because the decision to be baptized by them is a decision to accept Christ.

Catholics believe that you can only be baptized once. From then on, it is your duty to remain free of sin, or to confess those sins to a priest and to obtain forgiveness. (It is a grey area whether baptism in another church counts for that once.) If you die and no priest is available, there are various thoughts on if the mercy of God is sufficient or not.

I am trying to be as accurate to what I learned as a child as I can be, so you can draw your own conclusions.

The tacit assumption is that the Catholic Church operates on earth as a substitute for Christ, and hence acceptance of them is acceptance of Him.

 

[Jenjoy]

Raulteetoe and Jenjoy, you have hit on a lot of similarities. Historically, there was the early church, with a uniques expression in each city. Then, the church of Rome, because of their position near the government, started to gain prominence among many churches. They became the Roman Catholic Church, and ruled most of the western world for 1000 years plus. When Luther started the Reformation, he changed only the parts he recognized needed changing. Everyone else was then set free to change whatever they thought God wanted changed. They all heard something a little different from God, and that's what they changed. That's why there are so many traditional protestant denominations. But many things were never questioned until later. For example, only the Quakers questioned the very idea of church services as a "staged event". No one questioned the absence of prophecy and tongues until nearly 1900AD. We are still in the process of questioning many things, like Sunday church, pastors running things, are there new apostles, etc. People are people wherever you find them. Some"run to the priest", many do not, as Raulteetoe tells us. Some speak of their reasoning about their relationship to God more than others, and that gives rise to "theology", and at the official level, "dogma".


very interesting thanks for sharing. I like learning religious history, history in general is interesting to me.

When it comes to personal commitment as necessary for salvation, we must remember that the idea was advanced by Finney starting in 1825. The home church movement is barely 20 years old. Every church has many people brought up to expect the same thing that has always happened. In each of our lives, we question anything we think the Holy Spirit is telling us, and go back to Scripture to verify it. We also depend on our experience with God so far. Every church has different experience; it takes a long time to figure things out sometimes, as there are many people in need of consulting, and many older people who might take offence.

This is why I say that my real problem is the pride that makes us think we (or our church) are closer to God than someone else. We are all part of THE church of Jesus Christ. Anyone, Catholic, Protestant, Messianic Jewish, independent, and whatever names I haven't heard of yet, who wishes to follow Jesus, has a right to be part of the process of deciding where God wants us to go in the world in the 21st century. We all have baggage, we all have bad traditions, we all have people in our fellowship who are not serious about following Jesus and making up lies, traditions, rules, etc., and we all are right if we say this or that is not of God. But we all have the right to pray, prophesy, search the Scriptures, experiment with new works, share our wisdom and discernment, and be listened to. What I would like to see is less of that first kind of prideful "being right", and more of the kind of being loving that says "oh, your Bible translation worked for 1000 years?", "oh, you've recognized that a personal commitment to Christ is a great idea?" and adds "tell me about it". So we pick up some things we don't like, like "Mary is the mother of God" or "the Pope can't make a mistake". Eventually, what God doesn't want His church doing will stop. If you don't do what God does not tell you to do, you can have that victory now, and not have to wait.[/QUOT


I agree with you regarding the above.