The Absurdity of ‘Born a Sinner’

[eternally-gratefull]

but you are able to trust your boss because he sent a letter.
which clearly states what He has given you.
and that letter is notarized.

Yes, I can trust him, but I can also mistrust him and reject his gift.

your boss is the King of the World.
who will resist His will?

lol.. So is my boss a dictator? who forces everyone to bow down to his will? if he is, I would never trust him..
nor would I have the ability to have faith in him, I would have no choice. I would not be trusting him, and assured that what he says is true, I would be a slave forced to do whatever he says,

there is no faith in slavery. only forced labor.

did you think this was going to change my mind? if anything, it made my point even more feesable. No one will trust a dictator. it is forced labor. not assurance.

 

[zone]

Yes, I can trust him, but I can also mistrust him and reject his gift.



lol.. So is my boss a dictator? who forces everyone to bow down to his will? if he is, I would never trust him..
nor would I have the ability to have faith in him, I would have no choice. I would not be trusting him, and assured that what he says is true, I would be a slave forced to do whatever he says,

there is no faith in slavery. only forced labor.

did you think this was going to change my mind? if anything, it made my point even more feesable. No one will trust a dictator. it is forced labor. not assurance.

n.m. EG.
i thought you would be certain not to turn down an estate in the Bahamas with a million dollars to start off with.
you missed the point.
maybe i should have said your current job was scrubbing latrines.

 

[cfultz3]

the word translated believe in that verse is pistis. it means to have faith, to entrust, to be fully assured.

πιστευσητεG4100 (to believe, to have faith in, upon) V-AAS-2P

V = verb
A = aorist (a Greek past tense)
A = active (performed by the subject)
S = subjunctive (mood of possibility)
2P = second person plural (you all)

You all are to have performed this action in the past, so that you all could have done the work of God.

So, you* are to have performed the act of having believed (placed your confidence) in Christ if you* want to work the work of God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

n.m. EG.
i thought you would be certain not to turn down an estate in the Bahamas with a million dollars to start off with.
you missed the point.
maybe i should have said your current job was scrubbing latrines.

would not have mattered. I still may not trust my boss. and not taken the gift..

Yes you said he offered those things. But you assumed I would be irresistibly taken by his offer. and not mistrust him. and that would be a false conclusion in any aspect of anything. we are human, and mistrustful people. the only thing we trust is ourselves. that is why is so hard for many to trust Christ. Even satans lie is trust self and not Christ. that is why he has won the battle by having so many religions which appear christ like, but are so far from truth it is nothing like Christ. all based in part on self. as I showed you.

if Christs gift was so irresistible. everyone would receive it. The fact many reject it, distort it to something other than it is. and twist it to add things to it to change it proves it is not so irresistible.

yes, people are stupid to resist it, as I would if I rejected my boss' gift. But then whose fault would it be? My boss's fault? Gods? No, I would have no excuse, and no one to blame but myself. God gets the glory even in my eternal judgment, because he offered the gift to me, I can;t blame him for my judgment, only myself. and the whole universe will know God loved even me,, and did not unfairly judge mel because I rejected him, he did not reject me.

 

[cfultz3]

Yes, I can trust him, but I can also mistrust him and reject his gift.



lol.. So is my boss a dictator? who forces everyone to bow down to his will? if he is, I would never trust him..
nor would I have the ability to have faith in him, I would have no choice. I would not be trusting him, and assured that what he says is true, I would be a slave forced to do whatever he says,

there is no faith in slavery. only forced labor.

did you think this was going to change my mind? if anything, it made my point even more feesable. No one will trust a dictator. it is forced labor. not assurance.

Love ya EG for having said what I am trying to say

 

[zone]

if Christs gift was so irresistible. everyone would receive it.

John 10:26
but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

 

[tribesman]

would not have mattered. I still may not trust my boss. and not taken the gift..

Yes you said he offered those things. But you assumed I would be irresistibly taken by his offer. and not mistrust him. and that would be a false conclusion in any aspect of anything. we are human, and mistrustful people. the only thing we trust is ourselves. that is why is so hard for many to trust Christ. Even satans lie is trust self and not Christ. that is why he has won the battle by having so many religions which appear christ like, but are so far from truth it is nothing like Christ. all based in part on self. as I showed you.

if Christs gift was so irresistible. everyone would receive it. The fact many reject it, distort it to something other than it is. and twist it to add things to it to change it proves it is not so irresistible.

yes, people are stupid to resist it, as I would if I rejected my boss' gift. But then whose fault would it be? My boss's fault? Gods? No, I would have no excuse, and no one to blame but myself. God gets the glory even in my eternal judgment, because he offered the gift to me, I can;t blame him for my judgment, only myself. and the whole universe will know God loved even me,, and did not unfairly judge mel because I rejected him, he did not reject me.

Just a question, bro. Why do you think some souls receive this gift and not others?

Note that I am talking about receiving, not rejecting, the gift.

 

[cfultz3]

Rauleetoe,

You received the email I sent?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

πιστευσητεG4100 (to believe, to have faith in, upon) V-AAS-2P

V = verb
A = aorist (a Greek past tense)
A = active (performed by the subject)
S = subjunctive (mood of possibility)
2P = second person plural (you all)

You all are to have performed this action in the past, so that you all could have done the work of God.

So, you* are to have performed the act of having believed (placed your confidence) in Christ if you* want to work the work of God.

it would only be my work, in which I could take credit for. if I did something to earn it.

A work is done to recieve reward. I do not have faith to recieve a reward. I had faith and RECIEVED A GIFT, which I did not earn.

Rom 4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?[a] 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[b] 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.


Debt means I have worked to earn a wage, the one I have worked for is indebted to pay me a reward.

David Celebrates the Same Truth

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin

And notice. there was no law when abraham did these works. Yet God said the works abraham did did not save him, he was saved by his faith alone.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Just a question, bro. Why do you think some souls receive this gift and not others?

Note that I am talking about receiving, not rejecting, the gift.

why? Because we trusted God. (he who believes in not condemned, he who does not believed is condemned already)

and why would we not talk about rejecting? it goes hand in hand. (see above belief vs not belief)

we all have been offered the same gift. It is up to us to say yes, or to say no. God is not going to force someone to take his gift. although he has that right does he not? he is God. but then what kind of God would it be that forced everyone to do his will? he would be the very God satan proclaimed him to be and has proclaimed him to be since the begining of time;

 

[eternally-gratefull]

John 10:26
but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

26 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled

30 Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do?

What sign? He fed 5000 people the night before with only a few loaves and two fish., what sign?? DID THEY WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH ABOUT JESUS?? WERE THEY LOOKING FOR TRUTH?

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe

Jesus did ot hide it from them. He offered them the same proof and truth he offered the 12. He did not force them to not believe, he already showed why they did not believe, Because they were not looking.

they were not his sheep. because God knew they would reject him. They proved God was right by rejecting, But as I said. God still OFFERED THEM THE SAME GIFT did he not? it must not have been so irresistable. they were looking for food which died. they thought that was more important than eternal life. thats why they did not see, they were focused on the self and now. and not eternity.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Love ya EG for having said what I am trying to say

lol, you better be carefull. Someone said I can not be trusted and will hate and condemn you

 

[tribesman]

why? Because we trusted God. (he who believes in not condemned, he who does not believed is condemned already)

and why would we not talk about rejecting? it goes hand in hand. (see above belief vs not belief)

we all have been offered the same gift. It is up to us to say yes, or to say no. God is not going to force someone to take his gift. although he has that right does he not? he is God. but then what kind of God would it be that forced everyone to do his will? he would be the very God satan proclaimed him to be and has proclaimed him to be since the begining of time;

Here's where we don't agree. I see natural man having the ability to reject God's gift. I do not see him having the ability to receive it - until he's resurrected from the dead. Because in his natural state he is really dead in trespasses and sins. A dead man cannot choose anything unless he's revived first.

Eph.2

[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
[3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
[4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, ( by grace ye are saved; )
[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
[7] That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[SarahM777]

Just a question, bro. Why do you think some souls receive this gift and not others?

Note that I am talking about receiving, not rejecting, the gift.

Perhaps it because Jesus said things like this

Matthew 5

10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Matthew 5

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Luke 9

23 Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it. 25 What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit their very self?

Maybe it could be that if one must pick up their cross it means death,if we somehow get that Jesus promised us a rose garden in this life,we have a problem. He said we would suffer,be persecuted,scorned,we could lose our homes,friends and families, and to top it off we must die to ourselves. To the natural mind it doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun and games.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

26 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled

30 Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do?

What sign? He fed 5000 people the night before with only a few loaves and two fish., what sign?? DID THEY WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH ABOUT JESUS?? WERE THEY LOOKING FOR TRUTH?

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe

Jesus did ot hide it from them. He offered them the same proof and truth he offered the 12. He did not force them to not believe, he already showed why they did not believe, Because they were not looking.

they were not his sheep. because God knew they would reject him. They proved God was right by rejecting, But as I said. God still OFFERED THEM THE SAME GIFT did he not? it must not have been so irresistable. they were looking for food which died. they thought that was more important than eternal life. thats why they did not see, they were focused on the self and now. and not eternity.

to add to this. It is when we start to think of eternity that God shows us his work. And we should start to seek after god for answers. this is God ocnsciousness, which every man woman anc child who ever lived will come to at one point in their life.

It is what we do with the answers god gives us, either through the conviction and teaching of the HS in our hearts. and if we seek after this still, the word of mouth of the gospel, either in the word, or spoken, that we must make a decision to say yes, or say no.

God does the first part with everyone. He is not required to do the second. he does not have to send someone the gospel message who has already in his or her heart rejected what the HS has shown them in their heart. they have already rejected his guidance, and thus will have no excuse on judgment day.

 

[cfultz3]

it would only be my work, in which I could take credit for. if I did something to earn it.

A work is done to recieve reward. I do not have faith to recieve a reward. I had faith and RECIEVED A GIFT, which I did not earn.

Rom 4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?[a] 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[b] 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.


Debt means I have worked to earn a wage, the one I have worked for is indebted to pay me a reward.

David Celebrates the Same Truth

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin

And notice. there was no law when abraham did these works. Yet God said the works abraham did did not save him, he was saved by his faith alone.

Yet you say,

Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull

Yes, I can trust him, but I can also mistrust him and reject his gift.



lol.. So is my boss a dictator? who forces everyone to bow down to his will? if he is, I would never trust him..
nor would I have the ability to have faith in him, I would have no choice. I would not be trusting him, and assured that what he says is true, I would be a slave forced to do whatever he says,

there is no faith in slavery. only forced labor.

did you think this was going to change my mind? if anything, it made my point even more feesable. No one will trust a dictator. it is forced labor. not assurance.


So, is faith willful? Is not a verb a verb? Is not active active?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Here's where we don't agree. I see natural man having the ability to reject God's gift. I do not see him having the ability to receive it - until he's resurrected from the dead. Because in his natural state he is really dead in trespasses and sins. A dead man cannot choose anything unless he's revived first.

yes, this is where we disagree.

for you see, in my mind, a person can not reject something he can not receive. If one does not know and understand truth so they have the ability to receive it. they have no ability to reject it either. what would they be rejecting?

As zone showed. If my boss offered me those things. I can see and understand what he is offering. Thus I have the ability to reject or recieve.

If I did not see what he was offering, I could not reject it. because I would not know it was offered to have the ability to reject.

your taking spiritual death to literal. It does not mean we can not do anything. as I already showed. many people believe and understand what Jesus did on the cross. and understand they are sinners and thus dead to Christ. yet for whatever reason, still reject the true gospel. and make their own gospel.

if a dead man can understand he is condemned, and understand Christ paid for his sin, he certainly can chose to recieve his offer. Yet these same people all the time reject it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yet you say,

Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull

Yes, I can trust him, but I can also mistrust him and reject his gift.



lol.. So is my boss a dictator? who forces everyone to bow down to his will? if he is, I would never trust him..
nor would I have the ability to have faith in him, I would have no choice. I would not be trusting him, and assured that what he says is true, I would be a slave forced to do whatever he says,

there is no faith in slavery. only forced labor.

did you think this was going to change my mind? if anything, it made my point even more feesable. No one will trust a dictator. it is forced labor. not assurance.


So, is faith willful? Is not a verb a verb? Is not active active?

yes my friend. but it is still not my work. The key word as I tried to show you is reward. We work to earn a reward. Salvation is not a reward, it is a gift. thus when it comes to salvation, it is not a work. because I am not earning the gift. i am receiving it.

this is different say from those who say we must work.

If I get baptized to get saved, or do any other religious ceremony or tradition. I am doing a work, to earn a wage, that wage is salvation.

if I try to do Gods commands to be saved, I am not doing them to recieve a gift. I am doing them to earn a wage, which is salvation.

if I try not to sin so I do not lose my salvation. I am doing it to earn a wage, not receive a gift. my wage is salvation.

you see in all the above, I can take credit. because it is the work I am performing for which my salvation is based on, thus I have earned the right to be saved, or added to the work of God my own works to help save myself.

but when it comes to freely recieving a gift from someone, I am not working to earn it, I just trust what he gives me has value, thus I chose to receive it.

 

[tribesman]

...your taking spiritual death to literal. It does not mean we can not do anything. as I already showed. many people believe and understand what Jesus did on the cross. and understand they are sinners and thus dead to Christ. yet for whatever reason, still reject the true gospel. and make their own gospel.

if a dead man can understand he is condemned, and understand Christ paid for his sin, he certainly can chose to recieve his offer. Yet these same people all the time reject it.

It means we cannot contribute to our justification or "positively respond" to God's call. Scripture is overly clear about the state of the lost and I see no reason to overlook these passages. The doctrine of "prevenient grace" overlooks the fact that every man is guilty and deserving just punishment. Just because some don't receive God's gift it doesn't mean that they are excused any sort. All who are saved have only God to thank and all who are damned have only themselves to blame. You say these people "understand" what Jesus did on the cross, I'd say that's not sure.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It means we cannot contribute to our justification

agreed

or "positively respond" to God's call. Scripture is overly clear about the state of the lost and I see no reason to overlook these passages. The doctrine of "prevenient grace" overlooks the fact that every man is guilty and deserving just punishment. Just because some don't receive God's gift it doesn't mean that they are excused any sort. All who are saved have only God to thank and all who are damned have only themselves to blame. You say these people "understand" what Jesus did on the cross, I'd say that's not sure.

Disagree. It does not say they can't respond. If they could not respond. they could not reject. As I said, if I do not know what it is I am not willing to receive, I can not reject it. This is not logic at all. God can not blame someone for rejecting him, if he has not given the ability to respond and recieve, because they could not have the ability to reject if they had no clue what they were rejecting.