Mary the mother of my Lord (Heresy?)

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Dec 5, 2012
885
5
0
This is what man has told you. This is what you've been indoctrinated with and you deny what God says in scripture, instead choosing traditions of man over God's word.

God is God. He does not need a perfect vessel to give birth to Jesus. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, Mary was just a vessel. She was a humble Godly woman but God could've chosen anyone.

Only Jesus was sinless. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, including Mary. Nowhere does it say "except Mary". She rejoiced in God her savior. If she were perfect she would not need a savior.

All means all. Savior means savior. You can't twist what scripture says to fit with your personal beliefs. Saying she was sinless is putting her on equal status with Jesus, a very serious thing.
You argue that I am indoctrinated but you hold the believes of the protestants to the Church of Rome. So you can call your believe a protestant doctrine.

I have read the studies as to why the blessed Virgin Mary would be sinless and I understand them. You do not, and you refuse to believe God could have done so.

My problem with your view on the subject is that there is no room for Love. Yes you Love God with all your heart and soul, but the views you hold for me do not love everyone else at all. Because you see that to love another you take away from God. This is my personal view.

God is a whole explosion of love, to God, To Mary to the saints to you and to me. There is an exchange of love so pure that even the most beautiful feeling on earth could not even touch the most sorrowful of heaven.

If heaven is all about Love, wouldn't we love to pray for one to another, blessing The Lord, asking for his mercy for others.
 
Dec 5, 2012
885
5
0
Is any of this inaccurate?:

St. Antonius (circa 250 - 350): "All graces that have ever been bestowed on men, all came through Mary."

St. Bernard (1090 - 1153): "[Mary is called] the gate of heaven, because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without passing through her."

St. Bonaventure (1221 - 1274): "As the moon, which stands between the sun and the earth, transmits to this latter whatever it receives from the former, so does Mary pour out upon us who are in this world the heavenly graces that she receives from the divine sun of justice."

1750: Alphonsus Mary de Liguori, canonized as Saint Alphonsus in 1839, wrote a book "The Glories of Mary." It continues to be published today, under various church imprimaturs. Various chapters in the book are titled: "Mary our Help," "Mary our Mediatress," "Mary our Advocate," etc.

1935: Pope Pius XI gave the title co-redemptrix to Mary during a radio broadcast.

1964-NOV-21: The Chapter 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, passed by the Vatican Council II, and "Solemnly promulgated by Holiness Pope Paul VI" states, in part:

"Rightly, therefore, the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely cooperating in the work of man’s salvation through faith and obedience. For as St. Irenaeus says, she being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him in their preaching ...'death through Eve, life through Mary.' This union of the mother with the son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death"

"Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress and Mediatrix."

"...the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator."

"For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to His creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."

1985: Pope John Paul II recognized Mary as co-redemptrix" during a speech in Guayaquil, Ecuador. He said, in part, "Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity...In fact Mary’s role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son."

1987-MAR-25: In his encyclical Redemptoris Mater, Pope John Paul II "referred to Mary as 'Mediatrix' three times, and as 'Advocate' twice."

1997-APR-9: During an audience Pope John-Paul II referred to the role of Mary during the crucifixion of Jesus: "Mary … co-operated during the event itself and in the role of mother; thus her co-operation embraces the whole of Christ’s saving work. She alone was associated in this way with the redemptive sacrifice that merited the salvation of all mankind. In union with Christ and in submission to him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity...In God’s plan, Mary is the ‘woman’ (cf. John 2:4; John 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs."
You have asked many things at the same time, I do not know everything and a quick google search we all can copy paste what others have learned. I could be wrong but I doubt you have read all of this information for the sake of this thread. So in response to your copy/paste I have to do research.

It will take me time.
 
Q

quickfire

Guest
This is what man has told you. This is what you've been indoctrinated with and you deny what God says in scripture, instead choosing traditions of man over God's word.

God is God. He does not need a perfect vessel to give birth to Jesus. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, Mary was just a vessel. She was a humble Godly woman but God could've chosen anyone.

p Katy do you believe this in 100 percent in your heart luke 1.:28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.


Only Jesus was sinless. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, including Mary. Nowhere does it say "except Mary". She rejoiced in God her savior. If she were perfect she would not need a savior.

All means all. Savior means savior. You can't twist what scripture says to fit with your personal beliefs. Saying she was sinless is putting her on equal status with Jesus, a very serious thing.
rock has never once put mary on the same level. Katty.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
You have asked many things at the same time, I do not know everything and a quick google search we all can copy paste what others have learned. I could be wrong but I doubt you have read all of this information for the sake of this thread. So in response to your copy/paste I have to do research.

It will take me time.
Rock - is the Vatican considering officially proclaiming Mary Co-Redemptrix or not?



"Some excerpts from the first article above, about Mary's triune role as co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocatrix:

Second Vatican Council: “Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from, nor adds anything to, the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.” (Lumen Gentium, n. 62.)

Pope Leo XIII: “The recourse we have to Mary in prayer follows upon the office she continuously fills by the side of the throne of God as Mediatrix of Divine grace; being by worthiness and by merit most acceptable to Him, and, therefore, surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven. Now, this merciful office of hers, perhaps, appears in no other form of prayer so manifestly as it does in the Rosary. For in the Rosary all the part that Mary took as our co-Redemptress comes to us, as it were, set forth, and in such wise as though the facts were even then taking place; and this with much profit to our piety, whether in the contemplation of the succeeding sacred mysteries, or in the prayers which we speak and repeat with the lips.” (Iucunda Semper Expectatione, n. 2)

Summary of Correct Doctrine

Jesus Christ is our Redeemer, Mediator, Advocate. Christ is assisted by the Virgin Mary in her triune role as co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocatrix. The following 13 points are an important part of a correct understanding of this doctrine.

1. Mary's triune role as co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocatrix is a reflection of the Three Persons of the Holy Trinity.

2. All three aspects of this one role are substantially different from, and wholly subordinate to, Christ's triune role as Redeemer, Mediator, Advocate.

3. Mary's role is different from, and subordinate to, Christ's role because, in God's plan for Creation, the role given to women is different from, and subordinate to, the role given to men.

4. The "co-" prefix in co-Redemptrix refers to Mary's cooperation with us; it does not mean that Mary is co-Redeemer, not even with and under Christ. (The "co-" prefix should not be capitalized, since it refers to our mere human efforts towards our salvation; the "R" in co-Redemptrix should be capitalized since it refers to Divine efforts towards our salvation.)

5. Mary is not a co-Redeemer and is not able to save anyone, not even with and under Christ. Christ alone redeems; Mary merely immerses herself in all that Christ does toward our redemption. Her role is not co-redemptive.

6. Mary is Mediatrix of Grace, but not of all graces. She is not Mediatrix of the graces that flows from Christ's Divine nature to His human nature; there is no mediation within the hypostatic union of the Divine and human natures of Christ. She is not the Mediatrix of the graces that she herself receives from Christ; in that case, she is the recipient, not the Mediatrix. In all other cases, Mary is the Mediatrix of Grace.
Our Lady of Medjugorje, message of August 31, 1982: "I do not dispose all graces. I receive from God what I obtain through prayer. God has placed His complete trust in me. I particularly protect those who have been consecrated to me."
7. Mary is also Mediatrix of Divine Providence and of mercy and of all that God does within Creation, except with respect to Christ and herself.

8. Mary is Advocatrix. The term "Advocate," when applied to the Virgin Mary, is theologically deficient because it lacks the feminine form, which would distinguish Mary's different and subordinate role from Christ's role as Advocate. Use of the Latin form of the word allows a clear theological definition to be attached to the term, unfettered by the various connotations which the word "advocate" has when translated into various languages.

9. The expression "Advocate of the People of God" can only be used to refer to Jesus Christ, or the Holy Spirit. The Virgin Mary has no role of advocacy herself; instead, her role as Advocatrix is to immerse herself in Christ's role as our Advocate. Mary is not "Advocate of the People of God," but rather she is a humble assistant to Christ, the Advocate of the People of God.

10. Mary does not stand before God as co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocatrix. In truth, only Christ stands before God to redeem, mediate, and advocate. The Virgin Mary humbly kneels before Christ, in worship of Him, as she assists Christ fully in His work of redemption, mediation, advocacy.

11. Mary's role as co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocatrix is not properly described as a role "with and under" Christ. The term "with and under" does indicate that her role is subordinate, but it also improperly describes that role as if it were a separate role. In truth, Mary completely immerses herself in all that Christ does for our salvation. She has no role of redemption, mediation, or advocacy of her own; all her acts toward our salvation occur in Christ, not "with and under" Christ.

12. Mary is truly co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocatrix. But this true doctrine is neither the fifth Marian dogma, nor is it the final Marian dogma. The claim that this doctrine is "the fifth and final Marian dogma" is a serious theological error which contradicts the teaching of the Church. The further claim that the declaration of this dogma is necessary to usher in a time of peace, or even the last days, is a false claim.

13. Theological works about Mary's triune role as co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocatrix should omit any and all references to various false private revelations, including those of Ida Peerdeman at Amsterdam and others. A number of false private revelations have preyed upon the faithful by using this doctrine, or their own distorted version of it, as bait to drag unsuspecting souls into a trap of false teachings and false worship. Any teachings or documents on this topic should either omit all mention of such private revelations, or should clearly condemn them and the false doctrines which they promote."

Mary as co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocatrix < click
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
rock has never once put mary on the same level. Katty.
through some clever lingo-jingo Vatican places her equal - but just a teeny little bit less than equal.
just a smidge below the same level.
in fact, according to Vatican, nothing can happen without her.
okay?
 
Q

quickfire

Guest
through some clever lingo-jingo Vatican places her equal - but just a teeny little bit less than equal.
just a smidge below the same level.
in fact, according to Vatican, nothing can happen without her.
okay?
Can you show me the source of that infomation.
Did you know the pope has a Twitter account you could ask him directly
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Originally posted by eternally-gratefull
so do you believe all people will be saved no matter what "gospel" they are having faith in? And if se. where do you get this belief?

If you are born into a faith what you are you taught from an early age is what you grow up with.
would you not want to know if it is the right faith or not? Again I ask, Can every faith get you to heaven. this is an important question I need you to answer so I know where you are coming from.


are you or am i going to remember word for word in the whole gospel,? no (i will remember certain good things that will help me grow, " i think you will find that of any bible even the kjv and Douay Bible or the niv
god examines the hearts and minds of individuals.
lets look at my bible King James Bible. there is some stories i find far fetched is that going stop me seeing the good in the rest or believe the rest , , NO.

When i read all the terrible things that happen in the world, does that mean im going to go and do the same, NO.

If some one tells you to stick you hand in the fire would you?.

did your dad and mum or your school not teach you right from wrong ?

i could go on and on and on but think i have made my point more than once.


god examines the hearts and minds of individuals.
And through god his work will be done in us,

So God will save us no matter what faith we have?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Can you show me the source of that infomation.
Did you know the pope has a Twitter account you could ask him directly
uh....twitter the pope?
no. thanks.

we have catholics here. can't they answer?:)
if its not a big deal, and if it is part of the Catholic faith why not just say ya, thats what we believe.
i have catholic friends...close friends. they waffle and say they dont think thats what RC teaches. when RC clearly does.
this isnt personal. it is a question of official or semi-official doctrine.

Co-Redemptrix
Co-Redemptrix, a title of Mary, mother of Jesus, refers to her role in the Redemption process.
The concept of Co-redemptrix refers to an indirect or unequal but important participation by the Blessed Virgin Mary in redemption, notably: that she gave free consent to give life to the Redeemer, to share his life, to suffer with him under the cross, to offer His sacrifice to God the Father for the sake of the redemption of mankind, and to bring about all particular post-assumption graces by way of intercession. The latter concept is included in the concept of Mediatrix which is a separate concept[1] but regularly included by faithful who use the title of co-redemptrix.

The title has received some support from the Catholic Magisterium[2] though it is not included in the concluding chapter of the dogmatic constitution Lumen gentium of the Second Vatican Council, which chapter many theologians hold to be a comprehensive summary of Roman Catholic Marian teaching. Even so, it is not a dogma. Some, in particular the adherents of the Amsterdam visions, have petitioned for a dogmatic definition, along with Mediatrix.[3]

Co-Redemptrix -- click
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Can you show me the source of that infomation.
Did you know the pope has a Twitter account you could ask him directly
Embracing God's salvific will with a full heart and impeded by no sin, she devoted herself totally as a handmaid of the Lord to the person and work of her Son, under Him and with Him, by the grace of almighty God, serving the mystery of redemption. Rightly therefore the holy Fathers see her as used by God not merely in a passive way, but as freely cooperating in the work of human salvation through faith and obedience. For, as St. Irenaeus says, she "being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race."(LG56)

Embracing God's salvific will with a full heart and impeded by no sin, she devoted herself totally as a handmaid of the Lord to the person and work of her Son, under Him and with Him, by the grace of almighty God, serving the mystery of redemption. Rightly therefore the holy Fathers see her as used by God not merely in a passive way, but as freely cooperating in the work of human salvation through faith and obedience. For, as St. Irenaeus says, she "being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race."(LG61)



this is that slippery slope lingo i mentioned.
is this really necessary unless we intend to deify mary.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
She it was who, immune from all sin, personal or inherited, and ever more closely united with her Son, offered him on Golgotha to the Eternal Father together with the holocaust of her maternal rights and motherly love
Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis

Just as Christ, because he redeemed us, is by a special title our King and Lord, so too is Blessed Mary, our Queen and our Mistress, because of the unique way in which she co-operated in our redemption. She provided her very substance for his body, she offered him willingly for us, and she took a unique part in our salvation by desiring it, praying for it, and so obtaining it
Pope Pius XII, Ad Coeli Reginam

serious...
 
Q

quickfire

Guest
Only your own personal faith Or personal walk with god can get you to heaven.
Not every country has one dominant faith in some country's you can be killed because of your religion.

I think i have more than answered your question.

Can i ask you if i was a eskimo living in an igloo all my life with no books no teachings of religion, would i be saved ?.
If i was mentaly impared and i could not dustinguish right from wrong would i be saved
If i was born into a faith what ever the faith and did good all my life and i just believed there was a god, would i be saved.
 
Q

quickfire

Guest
Let me put it another way to you if i was born a catholic, and after my child hood i settled down got married worked hard all my life, did not have any time to study my religion Or any other religion, would i be saved.
 
Q

quickfire

Guest
I will anwser for you eternaly grateful.

The answer to all the questions i asked is, no idea :)

And só the answer to your question,s is also no idea.

And what do you call a dear with no legs and no eye,s

A still no idear.

Oh dear oh dear
 
Q

quickfire

Guest
I could if i wanted to learn every single religion word for word
I would probably go mad Or very wise but that still would not get me to heaven .
I could be a catholics and convert to christian but that still would not get to heaven.

I could say follow your heart and do what you know to be right and seek spiritual guidance.
Maybe that may get you heaven.
But i guess you could say that of all religions.
 
Last edited:

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,727
3,661
113
Let me put it another way to you if i was born a catholic, and after my child hood i settled down got married worked hard all my life, did not have any time to study my religion Or any other religion, would i be saved.
Born anything other than being born again will not get you to heaven.

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (Joh 3:3)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Only your own personal faith Or personal walk with god can get you to heaven.
Not every country has one dominant faith in some country's you can be killed because of your religion.

I think i have more than answered your question.

well you walked around a slope. if i did not know better you were a universalists. and think all men will be saved by every religion no matter what their faith is. and this is a dangerous thought, for it is totally not true.




Can i ask you if i was a eskimo living in an igloo all my life with no books no teachings of religion, would i be saved ?.

The eskimo does know about God. and he also knows about his righteous judgment. Do i think if the eskimo wanted and seriously sought and asked god for his truth, god would get it to him? Yes i do. for we have evidence this happens all the time.

If i was mentaly impared and i could not dustinguish right from wrong would i be saved
That would be up to God. But I would say if he truely can not know he is a sinner, then god owuld not judge him.
If i was born into a faith what ever the faith and did good all my life and i just believed there was a god, would i be saved.

how could you be saved, or how could you be good enough to be saved? don;t look at morality from mans point of view, look at it from gods. One sin is enough to make you eternally separated from god with no hope. just 1 sin.. so how can anyone be good enough? That is what the law was for. to prove to us we need God. have you fulfilled the law? are you sinless from birth? if you are not, you are rightly condemned with the rest of us, and without the one true gospel, you will have no hope.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I could if i wanted to learn every single religion word for word
I would probably go mad Or very wise but that still would not get me to heaven .
I could be a catholics and convert to christian but that still would not get to heaven.

I could say follow your heart and do what you know to be right and seek spiritual guidance.
Maybe that may get you heaven.
But i guess you could say that of all religions.
and you just proved a point. Only one religion teaches stop following your heart. for your heart is evil and deceptive. But look outward from yourself, and humble yourself and come to the cross.

Only one religion says God Almighty emptied himself, took the form of man, and took the penalty due us and paid the price of redemption in full, that whoever trust him, will be saved.

Only one religion teaches salvation can not be purchased with our good deeds, our religious ceremonies and traditions. and can not be paid by anything we do.

Scripture says the penalty of sin is death. Thus DEATH is the ONLY PAYMENT which can be made for sin. No sacrament, No religious tradition, no act of penance will ever allow you to be forgiven, or pay the price for your sin. And you can not be good enough, for you are already guilty and deserving of that penalty (DEATH) and it is not physical death I am talking about, it is alienation from God. If we die, and our sin debt was not paid (By Death) then we will suffer eternal alienation from god.

All religions teach we CAN be good enough, LIE, We can pay for our own sin debt, LIE, we need to help ourselves and save ourselfs.. again LIE

Only one teaches salvation based on an act of faith in the living God. and that is the one we ALL better look to. or else there will be nothing but DEATH
 
Q

quickfire

Guest
I feel sorry for you eternaly gratefuly.



I am composing a studie on baptism at the moment which i hope to post tonight Or tomorrow.
I am to busy to get into arguments about ones own salvation which is what you seem to be doing.
 
Q

quickfire

Guest
Born anything other than being born again will not get you to heaven.

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (Joh 3:3)

I will answer you in dew time bro.
 
Dec 5, 2012
885
5
0
and you just proved a point. Only one religion teaches stop following your heart. for your heart is evil and deceptive. But look outward from yourself, and humble yourself and come to the cross.

Only one religion says God Almighty emptied himself, took the form of man, and took the penalty due us and paid the price of redemption in full, that whoever trust him, will be saved.

Only one religion teaches salvation can not be purchased with our good deeds, our religious ceremonies and traditions. and can not be paid by anything we do.

Scripture says the penalty of sin is death. Thus DEATH is the ONLY PAYMENT which can be made for sin. No sacrament, No religious tradition, no act of penance will ever allow you to be forgiven, or pay the price for your sin. And you can not be good enough, for you are already guilty and deserving of that penalty (DEATH) and it is not physical death I am talking about, it is alienation from God. If we die, and our sin debt was not paid (By Death) then we will suffer eternal alienation from god.

All religions teach we CAN be good enough, LIE, We can pay for our own sin debt, LIE, we need to help ourselves and save ourselfs.. again LIE

Only one teaches salvation based on an act of faith in the living God. and that is the one we ALL better look to. or else there will be nothing but DEATH
Eternal since you are always answering every single detail and have knowledge of the truth. I have some questions that I can not reason, maybe you can help me understand.

Do you honestly believe with all your heart that the church is more united since the "reformation' and because of it there is more Love in the world and false teachings have been abolished?

Do you really believe the truth was covered but rome for 1600 years?

That just like muslims, mormons and other churches the 'reformed doctrine' is the one true church because a person started it in the name of truth?

Do you believe that Jesus Christ, the second person in the trinity, the Son of God could not controlled the church He established?

Do you believe Jesus waited 1600 years to 'reform' the church and take the people of her pews so that truth was finally bestowed on her?

Did the God ever had this problem before Jesus came? How did they overcame it?

If every one that reads the bible is to know the truth why are there so many different truths out there? Which one has it right?

That a religion of 2000 years has no idea of the truth even when the knowledge was passed down from a much older religion?